16 replies to this topic

[Undercover Brother]

Okay. I've posted on this at least half a dozen times since closed BETA, and it's always ended up in "Jettisoned Communications" within a day or two, but here I am, wasting my time again...

For those unfimiliar with the C3 system, here's the basic rundown:

It's big, it's bulky, and it gives an almost unfair advantage to a unit willing to invest in it. The C3 Computer weights 5tons, and takes up 5 slots. The corresponding units that allow others to take advantage of the C3 weigh 1 ton (eventually, the sizes and weights are reduced in the timeline). Anyway, the C3 Master unit would go in either the Commander's or the First Officer's mech (either a heavy or assault class), while Slave units would be placed into all other mechs in the unit. Once the C3 system was activated, all targeting data, damage, friend/foe information (including damage and loadouts), would be shared amongst each friendly unit. The added bonuses being that LRMs, SSRMs, and artillery, could now hit with even better accuracy (due to target triangulation), and mechs that shared line of sight with the mech carrying the C3 Master were unaffected by ECM (would that not be a more "fair" solution to NERFING the ECM again and again?).

This was I.S. only tech. COMSTAR had a TON of Star League Era units that took advantage of it. It's part of the reason they defeated the Clans. Eventually, the Federated Commonwealth reverse engineered the C3 system (from lost Star League tech), and started the "MechCommander" program (yes, just like the game), where orbiting dropships could monitor and communicate real time tactical data to units on the ground.

So, my question is "when do we get it?" Seriously, I'll always be a CGB guy. I'm not a huge Spheroid fan. I LOVE the lore, and the history, but I'm with the Clans. Now, why don't the DEVs use something REAL to combat the Clans, instead of NERFING everything that made the Clans so damn scary?! The Clans are supposed to be superior in every way WHEN THEY FIGHT 1 ON 1 (which I'll expand on in my next post). The I.S. beats them because they fight TOGETHER, as one. Give them the C3, and let them truly fight as one.

[TyphonCh]

It would definitely be an interesting mechanic for premades willing to use it. Probably won't happen... It would be difficult to balance. When the announcement was made the game was to remain 12v12, Clan and IS mixed, I kinda gave up on Clan lore superiority

[Adamski]

The IS beats the Clans because they outnumbered them 3:1 or even 4:1 using the numbers from the Battle of Tukkayid.

Any competitive game that is going to have mixed teams, is going to have to IGNORE or HEAVILY CHANGE the LORE for balance.

[Undercover Brother]

If the DEVs would stop NERFing the Clans, and enhancing the I.S., and just give in to 10 vs 12, everything would work.

[Adamski]

10v12 means that you cant have mixed teams in the Public Queue, so that's a fail state right there.

[Kissamies]

C3 wasn't of Star League origin. Draconis Combine came up with it around 3050. ComStar eventually improved on it, though. They didn't have it on Tukayyid. They won there because they outnumbered the Clans and used every dirty trick they could think of. Setting up ambushes and traps, hitting supply lines, ignoring all the clan honor rules.

There has been plenty of different suggestions on how to implement the C3 module. Just search it. My own opinion still is that since we already have C3-like functions in the game in the form of sharing locks, C3 improvements aren't going to be worth tonnage. It should be a module. It would allow 'mechs that have it share all the sensor contacts, even those that haven't been locked on. Kind of minimal, but still module-worthy for an organised team. Also, if you really want to have the master unit there, maybe the network would require that one of the 'mechs in network has the command console. Targeting computer if it's allowed for the Clans too.

[TELEFORCE]

I think the C3 system would be a great addition to the game, especially now that information warfare is in the process of being fleshed out on the PTS.

I'm just wondering how it would be implemented, besides the C3 Master computer coming with its built-in TAG laser.

[FalconerGray]

Effectively, we already have C3 on every mech, which is definitely something I'd like to see changed. No target sharing at all, but bring in C3 to give us those capabilities if desired.

[cSand]

T Decker, on 16 October 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

If the DEVs would stop NERFing the Clans, and enhancing the I.S., and just give in to 10 vs 12, everything would work.

[Davers]

T Decker, on 16 October 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Okay. I've posted on this at least half a dozen times since closed BETA, and it's always ended up in "Jettisoned Communications" within a day or two, but here I am, wasting my time again...

For those unfimiliar with the C3 system, here's the basic rundown:

It's big, it's bulky, and it gives an almost unfair advantage to a unit willing to invest in it. The C3 Computer weights 5tons, and takes up 5 slots. The corresponding units that allow others to take advantage of the C3 weigh 1 ton (eventually, the sizes and weights are reduced in the timeline). Anyway, the C3 Master unit would go in either the Commander's or the First Officer's mech (either a heavy or assault class), while Slave units would be placed into all other mechs in the unit. Once the C3 system was activated, all targeting data, damage, friend/foe information (including damage and loadouts), would be shared amongst each friendly unit. The added bonuses being that LRMs, SSRMs, and artillery, could now hit with even better accuracy (due to target triangulation), and mechs that shared line of sight with the mech carrying the C3 Master were unaffected by ECM (would that not be a more "fair" solution to NERFING the ECM again and again?).

This was I.S. only tech. COMSTAR had a TON of Star League Era units that took advantage of it. It's part of the reason they defeated the Clans. Eventually, the Federated Commonwealth reverse engineered the C3 system (from lost Star League tech), and started the "MechCommander" program (yes, just like the game), where orbiting dropships could monitor and communicate real time tactical data to units on the ground.

So, my question is "when do we get it?" Seriously, I'll always be a CGB guy. I'm not a huge Spheroid fan. I LOVE the lore, and the history, but I'm with the Clans. Now, why don't the DEVs use something REAL to combat the Clans, instead of NERFING everything that made the Clans so damn scary?! The Clans are supposed to be superior in every way WHEN THEY FIGHT 1 ON 1 (which I'll expand on in my next post). The I.S. beats them because they fight TOGETHER, as one. Give them the C3, and let them truly fight as one.

legatoblues, on 16 October 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Effectively, we already have C3 on every mech, which is definitely something I'd like to see changed. No target sharing at all, but bring in C3 to give us those capabilities if desired.

C3 is much better than what we have now, and PGI would have to butcher it to make it fit in MWO. It would basically make LRMs fly much faster and make enemy mechs appear as large and easy to shoot at as the closest friendly mech saw them. How that would translate, I have no idea.

T Decker, on 16 October 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

If the DEVs would stop NERFing the Clans, and enhancing the I.S., and just give in to 10 vs 12, everything would work.

10v12 isn't based on anything but a writer's imagination as to what the organizational structure of the Clans would look like. It had ZERO to do with actual game balance. I also fail to see how balancing 12v10 is any easier than 12v12. What are those extra mechs? Assaults? Lights? Different every time? 12v10 doesn't work at any levels.

[Homeskilit]

5 tons is pretty dumb for some computer hardware

[FalconerGray]

Davers, on 16 October 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

C3 is much better than what we have now, and PGI would have to butcher it to make it fit in MWO. It would basically make LRMs fly much faster and make enemy mechs appear as large and easy to shoot at as the closest friendly mech saw them. How that would translate, I have no idea.

My point was more that I'd prefer to see target sharing be impossible without being part of a C3 unit. No sharing of doritos, no scrolling through other peoples targets, no seeing reds on the mini map, unless you're running C3.

This is how I imagined things to be from the way I read the proposals before the closed beta and I think it would change the way people drop, by increasing the need for communication and scouting.

You can also kill two birds with one stone, by then allowing target sharing through TAG and NARC usage, covering the concept of indirect LRM fire.

[kapusta11]

So you want PGI to balance IS and Clans using gameplay mechanics when they can't balance it by tweaking simple variables? Geat idea though, just not possible in this life.

[Davers]

legatoblues, on 17 October 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

My point was more that I'd prefer to see target sharing be impossible without being part of a C3 unit. No sharing of doritos, no scrolling through other peoples targets, no seeing reds on the mini map, unless you're running C3.

This is how I imagined things to be from the way I read the proposals before the closed beta and I think it would change the way people drop, by increasing the need for communication and scouting.

You can also kill two birds with one stone, by then allowing target sharing through TAG and NARC usage, covering the concept of indirect LRM fire.

If you read all the CB stuff, then you can see that the Doritos were always going to be there. They are in every MW game, and in fact the radar was much more powerful in earlier games. I cannot imagine how frustrating this game would have been if there was, basically, no minimap and everyone relied solely on other players to type info in chat for the last 3 years.

There was target sharing (for indirect LRM fire specifically) before C3 came around- it's just C3 made it much better.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Adamski, on 16 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

The IS beats the Clans because they outnumbered them 3:1 or even 4:1 using the numbers from the Battle of Tukkayid.

Any competitive game that is going to have mixed teams, is going to have to IGNORE or HEAVILY CHANGE the LORE for balance.

I've done the scenarios described with the units described in the books and clans managed an overall clan victory 9/10 times. So, basically the clans lost for narrative convenience.

[Adamski]

legatoblues, on 16 October 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Effectively, we already have C3 on every mech, which is definitely something I'd like to see changed. No target sharing at all, but bring in C3 to give us those capabilities if desired.

As soon as my weapons get full damage out to their maximum range, then I will agree that every mech has free C3.

If you played MechWarrior Tactics or Table Top at all, you got the same information as we do for Targetting in MWO, without C3.

[TELEFORCE]

Adamski, on 17 October 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

If you played MechWarrior Tactics or Table Top at all, you got the same information as we do for Targetting in MWO, without C3.

I think what a C3 network could do in MWO is allow players to share more than one locked target within their LOS. As of right now, if a player could see four 'mechs, they can only lock on to one 'mech and the rest of the team can only see that one 'mech on their battle maps. Maybe with C3, the player can share the locations of all four 'mechs in their LOS.

This only works as long as the C3 master computer isn't destroyed by critical hits or by destruction of the 'mech carrying it. ECM can also interrupt a network by isolating and jamming the 'mech carrying the C3 master computer, and ECM could isolate a 'mech carrying a C3 slave computer from a network. And again, a C3 master computer comes with a free TAG laser.

Yes, 5 tons and 5 slots does seem a lot for a master computer, but there's probably powerful communications and ECM gear with it (though not like Guardian ECM like what we have in-game, but more to filter out the ambient electronic noise that plagues 31st battlefields and targeting systems, hence the "lower" weapon ranges).

The slave computers weigh 1 ton a piece and take one slot.

Edited by TELEFORCE, 17 October 2015 - 05:35 PM.