52 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Alwrath, on 18 October 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

There are alot of IS mechs you can use in CW that are perfectly viable. Take the Hunchback 4G-4H-4P-4SP for example. All of them are competitive and excellent short range brawling mechs because of the quirks on them. Are they good for long range? No. But at least the Hunchback can kick ass in its intended role, because thats what the current quirk system does. It makes IS mechs competitive when otherwise they wouldent be. The system isnt perfect, but it needs to remain in place and PGI just has to keep up with incremental changes and dial down some of the no brainer offenders. Not throw in the towel like your proposing.

The quirk system is based on shoehorning mechs into certain weapon systems (defeating the purpose of customization) in order to counter overall superior tech. What that results in, is making certain IS mechs (and only very few) spectacular (look at community warfare) and leaving the others by the wayside... which incidentally reduces the viability of clan mechs (less customizable in many regards) to a few chassis that can match the super IS mechs...overall decreasing the TTK, customization, and fun.

Better to have a blanket balance between the techs (Like decreasing the maximum range on ER tech, and maybe even slowing their rate of fire) so they do more damage, at greater range, but also falloff faster, and shoot slower. That way it's a choice between shorter, higher DPS, with somewhat shorter max ranges, or farther, higher damage, with lower DPS. More choice, not less choice. Higher TTK, not lower TTK. The current system isn't really fun by itself. It's even *less* fun in a no-respawn environment.

[Tarl Cabot]

The module system is something that should be modified, to put limitations on it, to allow it to fit better into the scheme of things.

As for the quirks they will definitely be modified from their present stance. To make things more comparable, allow IS mechs to equip case to prevent the destruction of IS XL engines but give them a larger heat penalty. If/when the LFE is added, set its penalty to equal the Clan XL.

Remember, this is not the board game with dice. PGI needs to make changes based on the environment of the game. The current solo/group queue tends to be different from the CW queue, but the data being collected comes from both the PTS and live...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 October 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

I see so many players complain about IS mechs not being able to compete with Clan mechs if the weapon quirks are removed.
That's a wrong assumption. Try not relying on your quirk crutch for a moment.

Take my FS 9S for example. As you know that variant has 20% less heat for MPL's so many use 5 MPL's on it.
I don't have a single MPL on it and i pull my weight most of the time.
It has 280XL with extra 1 DHS in it, 6JJ, ER LL, 2x ML, 3x SL. It can dish out damage at any range category so i call it a Jack of all ranges.

Mazzyplz has clearly told me that he is...sceptical of the way i play. Despite this i support him when he says that weapon quirks has to go for the sake of balance.
I'm not perfect. If i said i was perfect and that in all my matches i perform incredible feats slaugther then i would be delusional.

The reason i did this can be easily explained. Imagine you're in a meta brawler build with only short range weapons.
You're given multiple opportunities throughout a match to shoot enemies at long range. Every time you cannot do any damage at that range the opportunity is completly wasted.
At those moments you're harmless because none of your weapons can reach the enemy.

Imagine your in a Shadow Cat with 3x cER LL or a Raven with 2x ER LL instead.
All those times you get an incredible opportunity to shoot an enemy at closer ranges you might have to retreat instead if the enemy has superior close range firepower.
All those times when you have no choice but to confront your enemy at close range with only those hot ER LL's.
If the target survives your first alpha and starts shooting at you...will you have the firepower/heat efficiency to defeat him?
Those times could be better if you had balanced your build to be able to adapt to any situation.

Those ER LL's will hurt the enemy sure....but imagine if you had a build like that Firestarter i mentioned above.
That's a 28 damage alpha and those ML's and SL's cycle faster than an ER LL meaning they dish out damage faster that way.
Try equipping your mech with a variety of weapons for both short and long range....heck throw in some medium range weapons too.

Remember this. Every opportunity you waste is less damage. If you can grasp all the opportunities your given during a match you catch up to the players that only boat weapons according to the mechs quirks or use a build that is specialised in one single particular range.

Yes. Do this and the mech will demand more of your skill to pilot to it's full potential.
Yes. You will have to make the right decisions so you do not end up fighting against a pure brawler in a 1 on 1 at short range.
MWO is supposed to be a thinking players game....this kinda build demands that you think and make the right decisions.

It will also have a disadvantage against for example a 5 MPL or 8 SPL Firestarter at close ranges. But those meta Firestarters are harmless at long range.
It cannot do better than a Raven with 2x ER LL at long range. But it has the advantage at short and medium range.
But no matter what the situation is....this kinda build will be able to adapt.

Stop leaning on your quirk crutches. Try something that demands more than clicking your left mousebutton everytime your weapons reload.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 18 October 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Kali Rinpoche]

I support quirks remaining in place. Even with reduced clan range, the only reason some IS mech can compete at all is quirks. Take a bad hard point (imo) like the WVR-7DL. It's got quirks that still don't save it from being like pulling toe nails to pilot. You can make them more general and less weapon type specific though.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I'm okay with getting rid of weapon quirks, but bring back armor and structure quirks.

PS. it'd be nice if they added some kind of module or piece of equipment that reduced Jam-chances for UACs if they get rid of that quirk for good.

[White Bear 84]

xCico, on 18 October 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

shooting ppcs and hitting target at 700-800 meters is real skill, everyone can hit target with lasers, even at 1000m. Game is so boring with lasers.

Spider 5V challenge with PPC.. ..dare ya

[Wildstreak]

Once again I see people who are forgetting that after this whole quirk change stuff, there is supposed to be a whole new pass at changing weapons.
I bet some people are suggesting quirk changes without considering future weapon changes that will make quirked Mechs too strong.

[Wibbledtodeath]

Quirks should get a change- sometimes a simplification. But they should not be gone.

Because I own a Huginn

[VorpalAnvil]

This thread is bad and you should feel bad. 0/10.

[Lord Auriel]

Spleenslitta, on 18 October 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Stop leaning on your quirk crutches. Try something that demands more than clicking your left mousebutton everytime your weapons reload.

so, IS mechs should be inferior so that players have to play better? Commandos and kintaros should stay the same steaming piles of dung they are right now? Is that your suggestion? I don't quite get it.

Balancing = nerfing clans, removeIS weapon quirks. If a stormcrow and a shadowhawk are equal, then we have balance. Whatever needs to be done to achieve thatwithout insane IS weapon quirks, fine.

[Hotthedd]

I don't mind minor quirks, especially defensive quirks like beefed up armor or structure, or heat dissipation quirks as long as they are only used to balance the things that cannot be balanced by other means. For example: unfortunate geometry/hitboxes, poor weapon hardpoints/locations, etc.

I'm not a fan of super quirks that basically force certain builds on certain chassis.

[L3mming2]

Livewyr, on 18 October 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

The quirk system is based on shoehorning mechs into certain weapon systems (defeating the purpose of customization) in order to counter overall superior tech. What that results in, is making certain IS mechs (and only very few) spectacular (look at community warfare) and leaving the others by the wayside... which incidentally reduces the viability of clan mechs (less customizable in many regards) to a few chassis that can match the super IS mechs...overall decreasing the TTK, customization, and fun.

Better to have a blanket balance between the techs (Like decreasing the maximum range on ER tech, and maybe even slowing their rate of fire) so they do more damage, at greater range, but also falloff faster, and shoot slower. That way it's a choice between shorter, higher DPS, with somewhat shorter max ranges, or farther, higher damage, with lower DPS. More choice, not less choice. Higher TTK, not lower TTK. The current system isn't really fun by itself. It's even *less* fun in a no-respawn environment.

even with perfect balance between clan and IS, there will be bad chassi's who need quirks to be viable...

[Weeny Machine]

Spleenslitta, on 18 October 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Stop leaning on your quirk crutches. Try something that demands more than clicking your left mousebutton everytime your weapons reload.

But leaning on clan tech crutches is ok? Got it...

[Puresin]

wow, did anyone perchance EVER read the books. part of the beautiful part of this game is the DIFFERENCE between clan and IS, the CLAN BRED FOR WAR, so everything they had was superior. but the inner sphere beat them with intelligence and deception which was anathema to the clans. welcome to another episode of a great game being ruined by......"oh my that clan mech is too powerful" well guess what? think about it. if I were bred for war came to your planet and kicked your ass with better weapons would I suddenly go to my soldiers and say here, take these new lasers they're less powerful, hotter, and don't shoot as far. that'll even things up..... anyone else think all this evening things up is ruining the original idea of the game?

sorry but changing how the weapon functions isn't how the balancing should be done. not saying I know where and how it should be done. But the idea of the "bred for war clanners" weapons suddenly being dumbed down doesn't even sound like they responded with the actual scope of the game in mind anymore. honestly I think this game is gonna join COD and Battlefield on the shelf, cause once they are done re-balancing the only difference between the clans and the IS will be the cockpits.

and then this game can go to being "just like all the rest" just another FPS that had to be like everyone else and go for big money an big player groups instead of being true to the storyline, the tabletop game and all of the previous MW games. instead lets caper to the "lets make everything the same an therefore equal" bus.

jeesh. and don't get me wrong, I know the clan weapons might seem OP but I can give several examples of where h cl weapons were useless due to terrain or tactics.

so balance the game the right way. instead of punishing me, and no offense, but I have paid lots of money into this game in the hopes of it staying original, punish those that don't pay.

Wars are fought over differences, not for everything being the same. Vive la difference and leave the differences alone! make a more challenging mode where clan is versus the IS. make it 10v12 like the clan would do. do that. but stop ******* with the stuff i have already paid for and bought.

Anyone buy a car and have the dealer show up and say wait a minute your car goes faster than you neighbors and he cried about it so we have to take the engine back and give you a smaller one?

well PGI is doing it. Here's a law, "just because a company has a policy, doesn't make it a law" if they change the game that much I think they should be forced to give everyone that has paid money into th gam the option of backing out deleting their account and refunding every penny.

Edited by Puresin, 19 October 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[BlackHeroe]

Sjorpha, on 18 October 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

I personally think the module effect should be divided by # of weapons. So for example a medium laser range module on a mech with 5 medium lasers would increase range by 10/5 = 2%.

Yeah so modules yust help the big guns really

I think, modules are a fine way to help for makin a personel build, also if it atm focuses the same things (quirk and meta) builds.
They are expensive and you can bring yust a few in. There i would say, ok maybe less impact, but cheaper, and more to put in, so you dont have to rely on metas or quirk boosting.

I also think, the Experience pilot skill trees need to be made better. Skilling is like, get the three variants, elite them quickly, and after that everything else on XP goes to the Urbie ...(Sorry trash can ). On Pilot tree its yust more ridiculous, in first you really cant get anything, then you have a bunch of GXP, and yust use (some of) it within one rush for the next build.
A balancing skill system could make quirks obsolete.

[Livewyr]

L3mming2, on 19 October 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

even with perfect balance between clan and IS, there will be bad chassi's who need quirks to be viable...

I think that's the idea behind having info tech (sensor ranges/target lock) and tying it in heavily with combat.

Imagine the FS9 and ACH having 400m and 300m base sensor range respectively. With some weapon power being tied to lock, that becomes a significant restraint in combat, without support. (On top of not being able to scout for much.)

Take that same concept and apply it to the LCT, COM, or MLX, with very long sensor ranges that can do the scouting thing, and also use their weapons at farther ranges without support.

That won't balance them in straight up combat with either the ACH or the FS9, but it does give them an area where they exceed the other mechs, and can also use that against them.

All the quirks did was make feast or famine beasts. (I'll point to the Huginn- that damned thing was useless at 300+ meters.. but once it got inside 270 or so, it was ridiculously powerful.) Not a fun way to play a mech, quite limiting in creativity... and fun.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Puresin, on 19 October 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

wow, did anyone perchance EVER read the books. part of the beautiful part of this game is the DIFFERENCE between clan and IS, the CLAN BRED FOR WAR, so everything they had was superior. but the inner sphere beat them with intelligence and deception which was anathema to the clans. welcome to another episode of a great game being ruined by......"oh my that clan mech is too powerful" well guess what? think about it. if I were bred for war came to your planet and kicked your ass with better weapons would I suddenly go to my soldiers and say here, take these new lasers they're less powerful, hotter, and don't shoot as far. that'll even things up..... anyone else think all this evening things up is ruining the original idea of the game?

sorry but changing how the weapon functions isn't how the balancing should be done. not saying I know where and how it should be done. But the idea of the "bred for war clanners" weapons suddenly being dumbed down doesn't even sound like they responded with the actual scope of the game in mind anymore. honestly I think this game is gonna join COD and Battlefield on the shelf, cause once they are done re-balancing the only difference between the clans and the IS will be the cockpits.

and then this game can go to being "just like all the rest" just another FPS that had to be like everyone else and go for big money an big player groups instead of being true to the storyline, the tabletop game and all of the previous MW games. instead lets caper to the "lets make everything the same an therefore equal" bus.

jeesh. and don't get me wrong, I know the clan weapons might seem OP but I can give several examples of where h cl weapons were useless due to terrain or tactics.

so balance the game the right way. instead of punishing me, and no offense, but I have paid lots of money into this game in the hopes of it staying original, punish those that don't pay.

Wars are fought over differences, not for everything being the same. Vive la difference and leave the differences alone! make a more challenging mode where clan is versus the IS. make it 10v12 like the clan would do. do that. but stop ******* with the stuff i have already paid for and bought.

Anyone buy a car and have the dealer show up and say wait a minute your car goes faster than you neighbors and he cried about it so we have to take the engine back and give you a smaller one?

well PGI is doing it. Here's a law, "just because a company has a policy, doesn't make it a law" if they change the game that much I think they should be forced to give everyone that has paid money into th gam the option of backing out deleting their account and refunding every penny.

Most of us old folks, have read all the novels and most of the source books. BT novels are great "fiction." MWO isn't a fictitious novel, its a FPS game. Clan mechs, still possess weapons with greater range (even if reduced), weapons weigh less, often take less crit space, DHS smaller, Endo/FF require less space, XL engines that survive torso destruction, and targeting computers add high tech bonuses. I think that is enough of future tech superiority. Curbing the ranges of weapons that have too great an advantage helps level the playing field. Their is a reason clans load up on ERLL and Gauss. IS gets chewed up without great tactics at range over and over.

The claim that PGI should give you all your money back is ludicrous. Maybe for the 2 unseen and new second line packs, if you don't like the game going forward, but not for past stuff.

While i'm not excited about info warfare changes, the rest makes sense to me.

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 19 October 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dude my Black Knight has been out for a month and you want to nerf the **** out of it?

What the ****?

[Livewyr]

Puresin, on 19 October 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

wow, did anyone perchance EVER read the books. part of the beautiful part of this game is the DIFFERENCE between clan and IS, the CLAN BRED FOR WAR, so everything they had was superior. but the inner sphere beat them with intelligence and deception which was anathema to the clans. welcome to another episode of a great game being ruined by......"oh my that clan mech is too powerful" well guess what? think about it. if I were bred for war came to your planet and kicked your ass with better weapons would I suddenly go to my soldiers and say here, take these new lasers they're less powerful, hotter, and don't shoot as far. that'll even things up..... anyone else think all this evening things up is ruining the original idea of the game?

sorry but changing how the weapon functions isn't how the balancing should be done. not saying I know where and how it should be done. But the idea of the "bred for war clanners" weapons suddenly being dumbed down doesn't even sound like they responded with the actual scope of the game in mind anymore. honestly I think this game is gonna join COD and Battlefield on the shelf, cause once they are done re-balancing the only difference between the clans and the IS will be the cockpits.

and then this game can go to being "just like all the rest" just another FPS that had to be like everyone else and go for big money an big player groups instead of being true to the storyline, the tabletop game and all of the previous MW games. instead lets caper to the "lets make everything the same an therefore equal" bus.

jeesh. and don't get me wrong, I know the clan weapons might seem OP but I can give several examples of where h cl weapons were useless due to terrain or tactics.

so balance the game the right way. instead of punishing me, and no offense, but I have paid lots of money into this game in the hopes of it staying original, punish those that don't pay.

Wars are fought over differences, not for everything being the same. Vive la difference and leave the differences alone! make a more challenging mode where clan is versus the IS. make it 10v12 like the clan would do. do that. but stop ******* with the stuff i have already paid for and bought.

Anyone buy a car and have the dealer show up and say wait a minute your car goes faster than you neighbors and he cried about it so we have to take the engine back and give you a smaller one?

well PGI is doing it. Here's a law, "just because a company has a policy, doesn't make it a law" if they change the game that much I think they should be forced to give everyone that has paid money into th gam the option of backing out deleting their account and refunding every penny.

I'm not quite sure whether you could be more wrong or not.

I'm not going to reread to determine it.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 19 October 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

I think that's the idea behind having info tech (sensor ranges/target lock) and tying it in heavily with combat.

Imagine the FS9 and ACH having 400m and 300m base sensor range respectively. With some weapon power being tied to lock, that becomes a significant restraint in combat, without support. (On top of not being able to scout for much.)

Take that same concept and apply it to the LCT, COM, or MLX, with very long sensor ranges that can do the scouting thing, and also use their weapons at farther ranges without support.

That won't balance them in straight up combat with either the ACH or the FS9, but it does give them an area where they exceed the other mechs, and can also use that against them.

All the quirks did was make feast or famine beasts. (I'll point to the Huginn- that damned thing was useless at 300+ meters.. but once it got inside 270 or so, it was ridiculously powerful.) Not a fun way to play a mech, quite limiting in creativity... and fun.

Putting the lock for range constraint on Firestarters and Cheetahs with the small lasers won't hurt them much. Speedy lights are plenty good at making close pass byes and getting away; it's the slower brawlers that use the small lasers you're going to hurt the most ie the Nova, something that hasn't been a balance problem. This is why lock for range is especially bad for small lasers; It's bad for lasers in general, but it's especially bad for smalls.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 20 October 2015 - 08:06 AM.