17 replies to this topic

[Rixsaw]

1. Put Gauss Rifles back like they were. The trigger is stupid... It has a 4 second cooldown... Thats enough of a restriction on it.

2. Allow boating of any weapon and stop trying to control it. (Remove Ghost Heat)

3. Return SRM Accuracy, noone likes RNG SRM's... You nerfed the dmg then you nerfed the spread of SRM's. And you nerfed the heat generation... You must have really gotten your asses handed to you by some SRM's... Get over it developers. Learn to shoot SRM's back, and stop nerfing stuff that kills you in "Test Games"... We are better players than you are and we will beat you with machine guns so you have to nerf those too!


Now what is needed is a better armor system. How about introducing penetration and angles into the game? Lasers wouldn't do full damage to an angled surface more of the energy would "Bounce" and obviously once an external armor is removed any shooting into that spot would damage critical components.

Once you establish a good armor system, mechs will survive longer and games will be more strategic. You can then give them hit points, and using Hit Points you can much easier balance the various mechs without having to nerf weapon systems.

Looking at some other un-named games out there you will see that they utilize hit points as a way to balance the combat effectiveness of vehicles. In some cases the only difference between a tier 7 and a tier 8 vehicle is the amount of hit points.

Hit points should be a per chassis fixed value set by the development team to buff or nerf a specific chassis. Hero mechs for example could have an extra 20% hit points over other mechs. It should have nothing to do with the armor location assignment. Armor is for protecting hit points and modules. Hit points is the overall damage a mech can take before it is rendered destroyed. For example if a raven had 200 hit points and an Atlas had 2000 hit points, the raven could have an AC20 and blast that Atlas in the torso, doing armor damage or if with the right angle in the rear torso maybe penetrate the Atlas and do hit point damage, but the Atlas would maybe take 100 or 200 hit points of damage and still be effective in combat, while the Raven who is harder to hit could likely only take 1 or two good AC20 rounds and the armor on the raven is so thin most rounds would penetrate.

We need to be willing to let table top go a bit, and take a more modern approach to physics in modeling the game.

[Brethgar]

Pretty sure we already have this. Armor hitpoints and internal structure hitpoints already exist.

[Thorqemada]

Gauss Rifles need a 6s cooldown.

Unrestricted Boating - No!

Accurate SRM - they are from their whole characteristic not an accurate weapon but a Missile LBX.

[Rushin Roulette]

Rixsaw, on 18 October 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

1. Put Gauss Rifles back like they were. The trigger is stupid... It has a 4 second cooldown... Thats enough of a restriction on it.

2. Allow boating of any weapon and stop trying to control it. (Remove Ghost Heat)

3. Return SRM Accuracy, noone likes RNG SRM's... You nerfed the dmg then you nerfed the spread of SRM's. And you nerfed the heat generation... You must have really gotten your asses handed to you by some SRM's... Get over it developers. Learn to shoot SRM's back, and stop nerfing stuff that kills you in "Test Games"... We are better players than you are and we will beat you with machine guns so you have to nerf those too!


Now what is needed is a better armor system. How about introducing penetration and angles into the game? Lasers wouldn't do full damage to an angled surface more of the energy would "Bounce" and obviously once an external armor is removed any shooting into that spot would damage critical components.

Once you establish a good armor system, mechs will survive longer and games will be more strategic. You can then give them hit points, and using Hit Points you can much easier balance the various mechs without having to nerf weapon systems.

Looking at some other un-named games out there you will see that they utilize hit points as a way to balance the combat effectiveness of vehicles. In some cases the only difference between a tier 7 and a tier 8 vehicle is the amount of hit points.

Hit points should be a per chassis fixed value set by the development team to buff or nerf a specific chassis. Hero mechs for example could have an extra 20% hit points over other mechs. It should have nothing to do with the armor location assignment. Armor is for protecting hit points and modules. Hit points is the overall damage a mech can take before it is rendered destroyed. For example if a raven had 200 hit points and an Atlas had 2000 hit points, the raven could have an AC20 and blast that Atlas in the torso, doing armor damage or if with the right angle in the rear torso maybe penetrate the Atlas and do hit point damage, but the Atlas would maybe take 100 or 200 hit points of damage and still be effective in combat, while the Raven who is harder to hit could likely only take 1 or two good AC20 rounds and the armor on the raven is so thin most rounds would penetrate.

We need to be willing to let table top go a bit, and take a more modern approach to physics in modeling the game.

1. Yes, the Guass charge up is annoying and definitely not canon. A removal of the charge up mechanic would be great... increase the cooldown time to balance it would be great.

After that your post just went down hill in a very steep angle

2. No...Just no. The 6 PPC Stalkers were bad enough. Having the Direstar build work with even less heat problems would be even worse. Ghost heat is a terrible crutch... but until someone comes up with a better fix for boating apart from random convergence it is the best option.

3. Yawn.... what a terrible point... great way of atempting to convince anyone to fix anything... apart from that, SRMs are shoot and forget weapons with a spread that can be tightened through Artemis. They are also one of the slowest weapons ingame, so learning to aim correctly ahead of your target is important.

As for the rest of the dribble... even less of a no. Especially to the part where Hero mechs should get 20% extra HP. One thing which PGI really did well and deservers real respect for is to keep P2Win away from the game and making the Hero mechs different through configs alone (I dont really consider Pay to play mechs earlier P2W, as the mechs will come out eventually and things even out, although this is a debateable point). Giving them 20% extra armour or internals for free is just blatantly pay to win... Might as well give them gold AC ammo while they are at it.

[Rixsaw]

So the responses to this were from people who stayed, and kept playing the game. Those people would be the Minority.

The competitive scene left this game over a year ago.

Theres a guy name AimRobot, who literally headshot a raven at 900 meters when all you could see of him was half his cockpit with PPC's. The Raven was going full freaking speed and so was the stalker. He was an artist in the area of sniping.

The Jump Jetting CTD-3D's with 2 PPC's and a Guass rifle... Those guys who piloted them were TALENTED... Also Good for the Game. If you don't like the thing i'm saying here, you are a BAD Player.

Replacing skilled weapons with Laser Boating is not the direction you should be taking the game into.

Lets use Golf as an example: No matter how good at Golf you get, you can always improve. It is an activity that you have to keep practicing at to maintain your skills. Why do people play it? For that one perfect game or that one perfect shot. A hole in one will keep them motivated for years.

Spinning your Catapult around taking full advantage of all your elite pilot and mech skills to line the crosshairs up on a raven who is SSRM spamming you in the ass with ECM cover, and popping his leg off is like a hole in one. You freaking remember it man...

With the current setup, it has evolved into one of two play styles....

1. Laserboating: Find something to hide behind, peek out shoot lasers at target, hit reverse into cover, wait for heat to dissipate. Rinse / Repeat until all enemy mechs are dead.

2. Scout LRMing: Send in a scout, all the LRM boats lock on target and hold down fire button until target is dead or disappears from radar.

There are a few other things out there like the Yen Low and what not but this is essentially the game at the current moment.

A 4 PPC stalker wasn't efficient under the old system. 3 PPC's were much better because you had more room for heat syncs and could fire without penalty. 30 DMG every 4 seconds or so all in the same location is fine, they still have travel time and give away your position etc.


The way it is now it just doesn't feel like your skill matters, its more about if your team is stupid or your not running a meta build then you can't put enough lasers on target to defeat their lasers on target... Thats not exactly why people play Mechwarrior.

This isn't my first Mechwarrior game. I've played the others before. I knew I wanted a dual guass K2 before I even downloaded this game.

There might even be grounds for a lawsuit as I wouldn't have spent the thousands of dollars on this game that I did had I known they were going to make the gauss rifles into useless trash like they have.

Don't tell me the Gauss requires MORE skill now... It just requires you are more able to see the future like Chronicles of Riddick or something. Cuz you have a chance to save your buddy from dieing and you get the crosshairs on the target but the fire button prevents you from making the shot before they zip behind a building... Its BS!

[Rixsaw]

Rushin Roulette, on 18 October 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

3. Yawn.... what a terrible point... great way of atempting to convince anyone to fix anything... apart from that, SRMs are shoot and forget weapons with a spread that can be tightened through Artemis. They are also one of the slowest weapons ingame, so learning to aim correctly ahead of your target is important.

As for the rest of the dribble...

Yawn? Thats a real intelligent response man.
Dribble? Now we are resorting to insults? Get out of my post if that is the best you can do...

As to your response about SRM's ... If you take SRM 6 into a test map and fire them at center mass on a target at max range you will see that even though the spread seems to be random 4 of them hit the target 2 are always wildly off target.

Are you telling me in the year 3055 they couldn't design missiles that would hit a target at 200 meters? Did aerodynamics get lost in the fog of time? To that I can only respond with this :

The way it is now I might miss with my SRM shot and get 2-3 hits because those missiles flew off target and therefore hit it anyway. Make SRM's skill based if you get behind someone and they aren't going to move to prevent it you fire 3 SRM6's on a stationary target all 18 missiles should hit exactly the same spot.

[sycocys]

It's possible that this is why they are having a go at re-balancing the entire system?

So that more weapons and mechs are viable for use across all matches. Unfortunately in order for that to happen the power creep has to be dialed waaaaaaaaaaaaay back. If you don't start by re-balancing the weapons it really doesn't matter how much armor you are adding - the game won't change when you can vomit 54 damage laser alphas from 600+m and 5m.

Things will need to change and not everything will be direct from TT, but if you want a more balanced game then some things will need to get nerfed, others will need to have timing/speed adjustments, and some will need to have grouping adjustments so that more systems are actually usable.

[Rixsaw]

Agree or Disagree with how I am saying it, but my point is this. If you want competitive players to play this game, and you should as that will make it wildly popular instead of having only a cult following, balance the game with the idea of promoting more skill based gameplay.

SRM's should certainly be accurate, it take skill to time them perfectly and hit a moving target, but hitting a stationary point at 200 meters should never be a problem.

And firing a guass rifle should not require future prediction. Gauss pilots these days pre-charge the gauss hoping for something to shoot at in that .75 sec window of time they can fire and then they down-charge and recharge waiting for the next moment. This is dumb, and should obviously be removed. Guass has enough penalty as it is with the fragile nature of the weapon and its potential to kill the pilot if anyone looks at you funny with a laser.

Some control on boating 4 or more PPC's should probably be in effect, but not ghost heat, there is already a heat management system and PPC's are heavy and have high heat ratings.

The implementation of Hit Points and Armor angling will increase the skill required to land successful shots and give people more time in the battlefield to fight and learn to use those weapons properly. The reason I mentioned it is because it gives the developers a tool they can use to balance the mechs that is not tied to tabletop and doesn't hem them into something which was completely designed for a Skill - Less table top game.

The problems we have had with mechwarrior relate to using a system designed without skill playing a factor, in a game environment where skill does play a factor.

Using the golf analogy again. Table top is like Putt-Putt golf, its more about strategy than skill. Mechwarrior Online is more like real golf, and when the player-base decided it was best to use a driver to get the ball down the field 400 yards, the developers took away their driver (a golf club) and handed them a putt-putt golf putter instead.. Telling Tiger Woods to tee up with his putter on a par 5 is kind of silly.

[sycocys]

I'm 100% for it being more skill based. But we also need to have (especially many of the top tier and founder's) players lose the attitude that we need to keep this game in the lcd simple fps category because it might be confusing for new players.

Whether or not you like the guass mechanic, it makes the weapon unique and helps to balance out the fact it has next to no heat generation plus its nearly hitscan attack at 1k+ meters. Some things like this need to be implemented and depart from TT in order to make the overall game more balanced and give a reason for players to use other weapons.

Same with lasers, why would you choose less damage and shorter range when the biggest ones you fit will output much more at the same range as the next laser or two down? Free tonnage/heat is currently the only reason to choose smaller lasers, and its shown to not be a good way to balance them. Time to try something different - even if it doesn't match up directly with TT.

[Livewyr]

Rixsaw, on 18 October 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

1. Put Gauss Rifles back like they were. The trigger is stupid... It has a 4 second cooldown... Thats enough of a restriction on it. Same Cooldown as the IS medium laser...4x the range... seems legit. Let it free!

2. Allow boating of any weapon and stop trying to control it. (Remove Ghost Heat)
A; Do not allow unrestrained boating. (HELL NO)
B: Get rid of ghost heat and use something that makes sense.

3. Return SRM Accuracy, noone likes RNG SRM's... You nerfed the dmg then you nerfed the spread of SRM's. And you nerfed the heat generation... You must have really gotten your asses handed to you by some SRM's... Get over it developers. Learn to shoot SRM's back, and stop nerfing stuff that kills you in "Test Games"... We are better players than you are and we will beat you with machine guns so you have to nerf those too!
LOLWUT?

Now what is needed is a better armor system. How about introducing penetration and angles into the game? Lasers wouldn't do full damage to an angled surface more of the energy would "Bounce" and obviously once an external armor is removed any shooting into that spot would damage critical components.

Once you establish a good armor system, mechs will survive longer and games will be more strategic. You can then give them hit points, and using Hit Points you can much easier balance the various mechs without having to nerf weapon systems.

Looking at some other un-named games out there you will see that they utilize hit points as a way to balance the combat effectiveness of vehicles. In some cases the only difference between a tier 7 and a tier 8 vehicle is the amount of hit points.

Hit points should be a per chassis fixed value set by the development team to buff or nerf a specific chassis. Hero mechs for example could have an extra 20% hit points over other mechs. It should have nothing to do with the armor location assignment. Armor is for protecting hit points and modules. Hit points is the overall damage a mech can take before it is rendered destroyed. For example if a raven had 200 hit points and an Atlas had 2000 hit points, the raven could have an AC20 and blast that Atlas in the torso, doing armor damage or if with the right angle in the rear torso maybe penetrate the Atlas and do hit point damage, but the Atlas would maybe take 100 or 200 hit points of damage and still be effective in combat, while the Raven who is harder to hit could likely only take 1 or two good AC20 rounds and the armor on the raven is so thin most rounds would penetrate.

We need to be willing to let table top go a bit, and take a more modern approach to physics in modeling the game.

I think you might be confused. This isn't world of tanks. Nor is it hawken. It's a real-time adaptation of Battletech, the board game.

If you want Battletech and Hawken mashed together, I suggest you acquire Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries.

[Rushin Roulette]

Rixsaw, on 19 October 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

As to your response about SRM's ... If you take SRM 6 into a test map and fire them at center mass on a target at max range you will see that even though the spread seems to be random 4 of them hit the target 2 are always wildly off target.

Are you telling me in the year 3055 they couldn't design missiles that would hit a target at 200 meters? Did aerodynamics get lost in the fog of time?

You serioulsy dont have any idea about the Mech Warrior/Battletech francise do you?
I would really advise you look through Sarna (Battletech Wiki) for background information to this old universe and its lore
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page
Also this page which sums up why a lot of tech was lost
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

Yes, looooooads of things got lost between now and 3055 including intelligent missile design and targeting computers which predict where the missiles will hit while calculating for distance, wind, drop and target/own movement.

What you want are not SRMs, but Streak SRMs (SSRM) which have more intelligent computers built in and always hit (unless there is an ibstruction between yourself and the target.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 19 October 2015 - 07:32 AM.

[Rixsaw]

Rushin Roulette, on 19 October 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yes, looooooads of things got lost between now and 3055 including intelligent missile design and targeting computers which predict where the missiles will hit while calculating for distance, wind, drop and target/own movement.

What you want are not SRMs, but Streak SRMs (SSRM) which have more intelligent computers built in and always hit (unless there is an ibstruction between yourself and the target.

Nope i'm fully aware of the history. I'm saying that the game can either be a simulation of Battletech / Sarna / Mechwarrior, and have a limited cult following, or it can be an adaptation of that system with a more current physics model.

The reason for the adaptation? Because players can utilize skill instead of RNG to win games.

Essentially we have removed the dice from the tabletop, so why the RNG on SRM's. To say SRM's with Artimis laser guidance can not hit what they are aimed at is taking the fantasy a little too far.

Some of you may not know this, but at one time the Artimis SRM's would regroup back into a pinpoint pattern at exactly 65 and 145 meters. We actively tested this and were training pilots to run at full speed and hit moving targets at exactly 65 and 145 meters in order to maximize the single location alpha damage. That takes skill, which is something you can learn, and is good for the game and the community. Spamming SRM's in the general direction of Mechs is not skill.

Also your post about targeting computers etc sounds like auto-aim. I am not asking for Auto-aim, but the complete opposite.

I'm open to other ideas, you the current player base has more info about this sort of thing in the current meta. I just feel that I have a sort of outside perspective as someone who has spent thousands and is no longer satisfied with the product due to the fact that if I get skilled at using something it will be nerfed because some group of vocal unskilled players will post about it on the forums saying its OP.

Edited by Rixsaw, 19 October 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Rixsaw]

Livewyr, on 19 October 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

I think you might be confused. This isn't world of tanks. Nor is it hawken. It's a real-time adaptation of Battletech, the board game.

If you want Battletech and Hawken mashed together, I suggest you acquire Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries.

World of Tanks isn't perfect, however it draws thousands of viewers on Twitch, and has a professional gaming scene, and makes millions of dollars a month. It requires skill to use the Camo system, and skill to use the ballistics system,and Mechwarrior has it beat in one key area : Weapon Selection and mech customization.

So they keep a tight control over penetration values and tier vehicles based on armor and penetration. I think Mechwarrior is too complex to have tiering of vehicles, it could be done but would require restrictions on weapons by tier as well which would be a lot of work and require balancing on each tier which is beyond the capacity of the current balance team I believe.

I think however that being able to use armor angling and hit points as a way to increase the longevity of the assault mechs and heavy mechs would improve the overall gameplay giving various mechs roles as damage tankers and more mobile mechs roles that would allow them to flank more, and light mechs more of a scouting role. This would add to the richness of the environment, and promote more tactics in fights.

Currently no mech can withstand the full firepower of the enemy team for very long, and the best armor in the game is speed, putting the slower mechs at a dissadvantage. So you have weapon creep, "damn the torpedos" mentality that says I must instantly kill that guy before he instantly kills me type of gameplay.

[Captain Artemis]

Rixsaw, you have lost your point at the beginning. We don't want other generic "World of Tanks", what we want is true MechWarrior simulator game. If you look around the forum, especially on the feedback part now, people wants to implement more specific mechanics, like proper weapon convergence.

[Rixsaw]

Captain Artemis, on 19 October 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Rixsaw, you have lost your point at the beginning. We don't want other generic "World of Tanks", what we want is true MechWarrior simulator game. If you look around the forum, especially on the feedback part now, people wants to implement more specific mechanics, like proper weapon convergence.

Yes you are probably right.

Fix Gauss Rifles.

Fix SRM accuracy.

The armor / hitpoints thing is more of an overall game meta change. I propose it as a solution to the problem of XYZ weapon is too strong, and as a way to make proper aiming and positioning more important than it currently is, and reduce the overall power creep of weapon loadouts. It is an interesting concept to think about WOT based armor angling applied to mechwarrior based combat. People targeting weak spots and using torso angles to bounce shots sounds like a lot of fun to me.

[Captain Artemis]

Gauss rifles mechanics was created because of abuse of current meta, which I think was 1xGauss Rifle+2xPPC (correct me if I'm wrong). It was mainly used by "jump-snipers" aka poptart (so to speak very annoying by the time). I don't like this mechanics either, I thing that the solution for this problem should be lowered gravity, so the mech that use jump jets is little longer in the air - becoming more easy target for others. Kanajashi made good video about it:



For the Short Ranger Missiles? That weapon system should stay high splash damage type. I see no reason for creating just another direct fire weapon, which will hurt the game more just like current AlphaStrikeWarrior Online lasers meta. BattleMechs are supposed to be tough to kill, they are gigantic walking tanks, we should be tear each other apart rather than just killing ourself in mater of seconds.

Even more, I think that we should be more dependent from our sensors and targeting equipment. For example in case about ballistics weapons, right now we can just shoot where our cross-hair is. I think that without the lock, while aiming, we should think more about "bullet-drop" and range where the target is.

And with the your ideas about armor system... 20% for hero mech is Pay2Win for me. PGI did a good job with it, no need for changing it. Current armor system is good (of course plus more structure points), we just need to adjust the weapon mechanics and power creep to it, so the 72/12 right-left torso on Atlas is something.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

How about gold lasers, which do 20% more damage and only cost 5 MC to shoot?

There's a reason many of us don't play some "un-named" games out there.

[Mellonbuster]

Rixsaw, on 18 October 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

1. Put Gauss Rifles back like they were. The trigger is stupid... It has a 4 second cooldown... Thats enough of a restriction on it.

2. Allow boating of any weapon and stop trying to control it. (Remove Ghost Heat)

3. Return SRM Accuracy, noone likes RNG SRM's... You nerfed the dmg then you nerfed the spread of SRM's. And you nerfed the heat generation... You must have really gotten your asses handed to you by some SRM's... Get over it developers. Learn to shoot SRM's back, and stop nerfing stuff that kills you in "Test Games"... We are better players than you are and we will beat you with machine guns so you have to nerf those too!


Now what is needed is a better armor system. How about introducing penetration and angles into the game? Lasers wouldn't do full damage to an angled surface more of the energy would "Bounce" and obviously once an external armor is removed any shooting into that spot would damage critical components.

Once you establish a good armor system, mechs will survive longer and games will be more strategic. You can then give them hit points, and using Hit Points you can much easier balance the various mechs without having to nerf weapon systems.

Looking at some other un-named games out there you will see that they utilize hit points as a way to balance the combat effectiveness of vehicles. In some cases the only difference between a tier 7 and a tier 8 vehicle is the amount of hit points.

Hit points should be a per chassis fixed value set by the development team to buff or nerf a specific chassis. Hero mechs for example could have an extra 20% hit points over other mechs. It should have nothing to do with the armor location assignment. Armor is for protecting hit points and modules. Hit points is the overall damage a mech can take before it is rendered destroyed. For example if a raven had 200 hit points and an Atlas had 2000 hit points, the raven could have an AC20 and blast that Atlas in the torso, doing armor damage or if with the right angle in the rear torso maybe penetrate the Atlas and do hit point damage, but the Atlas would maybe take 100 or 200 hit points of damage and still be effective in combat, while the Raven who is harder to hit could likely only take 1 or two good AC20 rounds and the armor on the raven is so thin most rounds would penetrate.

We need to be willing to let table top go a bit, and take a more modern approach to physics in modeling the game.

I agree that all the changes are from getting their asses handed to them. They suck at the game and nerf what kills them. I left for a couple months and come home to this Nerfathon. So Sad. Its going to be hard to keep players and attract new players when all weapon are equivalent to throwing rocks at Mechs.