15 replies to this topic

[INKBALL]

Hi guys,

Since they want to balance the game with a full 100% scratch and start again. Now they are thinking putting IS and Clan all the same (nerfing DHS from clans and boosting DHS for IS, so only 0.3 difference, nerfing the laser range, etc.). And therefore, IS=Clan? Why scrapping this opportunity of having 2 different tech trees ?!

Clans are supposed to be better ? They always had less mechs ? Balance the game in consequence. Make it 3vs4 in all modes, and force CLAN TEAM or IS TEAM only ( So, IS vs IS, Clan vs IS, Clan vs Clan (this last one could be 8v8 or 12v12)) even in regular drops. And balance the game by tonnage (cause it makes ZERO sense that the game is balanced with the classes on one side, and with tonnage on the other).

Balance tonnage of Clans to 75% of IS' tonnage in drops or so.

THAT will make it interesting.


My ''only problem'' is with conquest mode... by the end of the game 1 clan could have to run 2 is lights... My opinion is: They simply had to manage that earlier in game..

____________________________________________

And then, balance.

Clan: I'd go with in clan mechs when you lose one side torso, you lose 40% of your speed (minimum 40, so if legged and one side lost still 40kph)kk

If PGI can make it work, i'd just add the ''convergence'' into the game (instead of the 60% of optimal range to official maximum... wth). Something like: Without target, Weapons (or only lasers) always aim the center of the crossair at optimal range (or optimal range +/- % range). Always. So, without Target, IS ML would converge at 270, and would cross at that point, MLs from left side to the right after 270, and vice-versa. So, that could make it worth it to have sensors (the direction many players would like to see also (and i think its a good compromise).

SCRAP all weapon quirks, and balance chassis by chassis (and compare efficacity vs tonnage ratio), then balance variants.. Without ''weapon'' quirks, you can still balance agility of the chassis, speed bonus (like highlander's 5%), the height of hardpoint, jumpjet boost bonus, sensors, adding fixed slots on particular mechs (IS AND CLAN ), playing with ''minimum/maximum'' engine ratios, forcing XL or STANDARD engine on a particuliar mech /chassis, and on, and on.


It's already a pretty damn big text to read, i'll stop there, hoping will read to the end.
Thanks (and please +1 or argue)

[Fractis Zero]

The 3v4 won't happen as they want to have a balanced e-sport game.

I really like your idea of the lost torso. For the most part losing a torso right now makes little difference, unless you have all your weapons on one side and the heat will then affect you.

The convergence is tough. what if I have 2 ER LLs in the right arm and that arm only? Would I then have to aim to the far right to hit something past 270m?

[INKBALL]

Well, in my idea, Weapon always converge at optimal range, so your ERLL will go directly to center of crossair at 675, and hitting something at 400M per example, you ll be force to shoot more to the left (imagine a straight line through right arm and 675 center of crossair).

If they wanted a e-sport game we would have something working already. They dont ask any info/tips from top tier to help balance and have a competitive gameplay: They want it fun for everyone (average joes?), and its fine...

[oldradagast]

A few points:

Yes, Clans are "better." They were also meant as a villain to be battled against, not as a replacement for Inner Sphere mechs by power-gamers who just want an "I win!" button. Also, the creator of the Clans himself has admitted that they were the biggest mistake he ever made in Battletech and, if given the chance, he would have done them entirely differently vs. just making them better in every way. So... that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the Clans "should be better."

On top of that, who the heck would want to play IS cannon-fodder against Clan "boss mechs?" The answer is nobody, and people shouldn't have to grind through being targets to get to the "good stuff." That's a sure way to kill a game. Finally, without the Clan honor system in place - such as PENALIZING people for kill assists, etc. - it is completely unfair to consider giving them their completely superior technology back in this game.

As for convergence, they've already said that it is nearly impossible to program with Host State Rewind in play. A cone of fire would work, since that has a randomizing element not based on the target mech's location, and it is already in the game - you see it when using jump-jets ,MASC, and machine guns.

Edited by oldradagast, 17 October 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[Zionkan]

My Idea isn't that different, convergence @ optimal range as standard setting, delayed time for converge @ different distances w/o lock, almost instant convergence on locked targets.
Therefore u could as usual damage untargetted enemy but till your lasers have 100% convergence on those they would do less dmg. It is pretty silly that i can hit with full dmg a locked target @ 270m and do almost nothing to the unlocked next to him :/

[INKBALL]

oldradagast, on 17 October 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

A few points:

Yes, Clans are "better." They were also meant as a villain to be battled against, not as a replacement for Inner Sphere mechs by power-gamers who just want an "I win!" button. Also, the creator of the Clans himself has admitted that they were the biggest mistake he ever made in Battletech and, if given the chance, he would have done them entirely differently vs. just making them better in every way. So... that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the Clans "should be better."

On top of that, who the heck would want to play IS cannon-fodder against Clan "boss mechs?" The answer is nobody, and people shouldn't have to grind through being targets to get to the "good stuff." That's a sure way to kill a game. Finally, without the Clan honor system in place - such as PENALIZING people for kill assists, etc. - it is completely unfair to consider giving them their completely superior technology back in this game.

As for convergence, they've already said that it is nearly impossible to program with Host State Rewind in play. A cone of fire would work, since that has a randomizing element not based on the target mech's location, and it is already in the game - you see it when using jump-jets ,MASC, and machine guns.

To answer 1st and 2nd paragraph: Yes, clan would be ''better'' but as it is 8v12 (and balanced), it would make it. As IS you do as good as you can, using your number advantage to side/back stab opponents or get in better position. Using better agility mech to get agro etc. Finally, more strategic. I'm 100% on it, i would be freaking fun.

On the 3rd paragraph, i have to start with: I'm not a programmer. But i dont get how hard it is to just make it shoot straight in line until you have a target under reticule and where then it could converge to pin point (as it is now).

EDIT: still on the 3rd paragraph (convergence), In how is it different with a mech passing through ur shot and get partly damaged (lets say from only ur shots going from your left side)((Friendly fire or Not).

Edited by INKBALL, 17 October 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[latinisator]

oldradagast, on 17 October 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

such as PENALIZING people for kill assists, etc.

veto. When a Clanner is fired upon, he would return fire, since Zellbrigen is violated by the savashri Inner Sphere freeborn surats. Sure you could program some code deciding whether you are in violation of Zell or "assist kill" for a reason. Unless this is implemented, neg to all "penalize un-clan action".

[INKBALL]

Is this so much nothing new ? Im heading wrong way ?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

By reverting to the old unquirked mechs PGI can vary one thing at a time and collect statistical info on the effect of each change compared to the baseline.

PGI isn't using the current quirks because they don't want the current system to be the baseline for the future balance.

Ulltimately PGI's goal is or should be to create a dynamic balance between the two techbases. Where both sides excel at diferent things and each tech has its own advatages and disadvantages.

For example, if IS and clan lasers were to be balanced with clan tech retaining its range advantage, IS lasers need to be at least 20-30% better within their shorter optimal range.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 17 October 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[oldradagast]

latinisator, on 17 October 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

veto. When a Clanner is fired upon, he would return fire, since Zellbrigen is violated by the savashri Inner Sphere freeborn surats. Sure you could program some code deciding whether you are in violation of Zell or "assist kill" for a reason. Unless this is implemented, neg to all "penalize un-clan action".

I'll freely admit I'm not up to speed on all the details of the Clan honor code, though I do know that gang-pounding a target was not allowed - it was supposed to 1 on 1, or something like that.

Point being that giving them their superior technology without writing game mechanics to force the honor code upon them via rewards and punishments just means "clan mechs are better," which means IS mechs are entirely scrap metal or red-shirts to be run over on the way to the boss fight. That's a horrible way to run a PvP shooter game and simply won't work.

[Nexano]

Well current problem with reblance laying at the core of PGI rebalance method. I mean they just ignore comunity suggestion. Simple example: man from my unit sugested reform current "heat pillow" into some more drammaticaly and random(you can just check battle tech overheat table on charlist). Currently all battlemechs have 30(can be mistaken about correct amount) extra heat capacity, though this limit in reality must be reserved for overheat limit with tons of posible negative affects including autoshutdown even on early steps of overheat reaching. Current profits, tha can be taken from this type of system:
1) removing laser vommit tournament, giving more value to ballistic weapon and flamers.
2) Bring more sense into combat, with serrious heat control - i mean currently 100%+ of heat is now just shutdown. In battletech it's imminent mech explosion - simple yes.
3) Make ppl think where to aim instead of doing " weeeeee!" Of laser beams somewhere intonthe enemy.
I guess many other good ideas was suggested. Though PGI still doing some shamanic rituals, ignoring thoughts of ppl that's play here from closed beta and spend 50-60 of their weekly life in game. Well thats how i see it, no offence.

Edited by Nexano, 17 October 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[oldradagast]

Heat penalties help, but they still do nothing to dual Gauss and very little to dakka builds. Not saying the game wouldn't benefit from them, but the root of the problem is the ability to put insane amounts of pinpoint perfect damage on 1 pixel far too easily. Until that issue is addressed in a logical and consistent fashion that affects ALL precision weapons - not just the hot ones, the ones with ammo, the lasers, or whatever - the game will never really be balanced.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@OP:

One thing I liked about your post was you addressed this as an "opportunity of having 2 different tech trees".

That's right on the money. Literally.

We could make Clans better, but then the game would fail because no one wants to be on the losing team all the time.

So, success is in making Clans not better, but different.

They need to design rule sets for balance that apply to both IS and Clans equally so that when 1 statistic on a weapon changes, so do others.

Heat, should be, I think, the key weakness of Clans. That makes sense for almost all their weapons; be it AC, lasers, PPC.

Range, should be, I think the key strength of Clans. It similarly makes sense.

Let me elaborate:

1) Lasers have greater range, that should be hotter: takes more energy to shoot further, energy transfer creates heat.

2) ACs also should have greater range, that should be hotter, too: the burst fire mechanism of Clan ACs fires multiple, smaller caliber slugs the friction of which should heat up the barrel more. This has the added benefit of explaining why they are lighter: lighter slugs = smaller barrel.

3) PPCs as lasers above.

Guass is a tricky one. Could be we need to play with the ranges or introduce a new specialized mechanic

[Livewyr]

oldradagast, on 17 October 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

On top of that, who the heck would want to play IS cannon-fodder against Clan "boss mechs?"

This, this right here. I won't play IS mechs on the Live server, because clans outdo them pound for pound in every way (even with the current weapon nerfs) unless you choose a quirk-god-mech. (I hate being locked into a build.)

The PTS ERLL nerf is the right way to go. That was where the clans were singularly superior in every aspect.

[jaxjace]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 17 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

@OP:

Guass is a tricky one. Could be we need to play with the ranges or introduce a new specialized mechanic

Biggest problem with the clans, forget super heat sinks, forget super xls, 12 ton gauss rifle, that is superior in every way to the IS Gauss. It needs to have something, anything to make it compensate for that 3 ton save. ammo reduction, some kind of weird heat or vision penalty, or DRASTIC charge times, this weapon is and always has been the king of all weapons. Its time we ******* nerf gauss.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Thought over the Guass rifle problem and came up with a pretty reasonable solution, I think. It is also well within the bounds of current mechanics.

Part 1: Change ranges and damage

I suggest starting by giving them different functional stats, instead of having CG be the same, just lighter.

Why is it lighter? It has a smaller barrel and fires smaller slugs. Add +5% range: 660m -> 693 optimal and 1,980 -> 2,079 max. Reduce damage -20% to 12.

IS is lower tech, but heavier and shoots bigger slugs. Reduce -5% range: 660 -> 627 optimal and 1,980 -> 1,881 max.
Leave damage as is at 15.

This has the benefit of maintaining Clan "Range and Accuracy" flavor while favoring IS with slightly better damage.

Part 2: Guass Rifling
If that is deemed not to be enough, a second mechanic could be introduced: Guass rifling.

This is effectively a very small, patterned cone of fire. Here's how it might work: give the slug a "spin" so that it will always hit somewhere along an invisible ring. The top of this ring is the center of the reticle and the slug hit location spins at a rate of 1rpms (rotation per millisecond or .001 second).

This is effectively impossible to time and therefore eliminates guass pinpoint.

Thus is my solution.