12 replies to this topic

[PeeWrinkle]

For a while now I have been trying to figure why I struggle in almost all of my Clan mechs.

First I should confess that I did purchase all three waves of Clan mechs, so I have played a bunch of them.

When Wave One was first released I did ok, but not nearly as well as I thought I would. As time went by I seemed to continually get worse in my Clan mechs.

I use metamechs to help me with builds, so I think most of my builds are decent. I have a tough time with Ghost Heat so I do modify them so I will not run into Ghost Heat issues. I also try to run all of my at builds or above 40% heat efficiency because I struggle with heat much more on Clan mechs. Ironically I rarely have trouble with IS mechs and heat and I usually keep those around 30-35% heat efficiency.

Matter of fact the only two Clan mechs I would say I pilot well are the Nova and the Stormcrow. I do about average in Timberwolves, which is shocking because everyone posts how outstanding they are and how if you are not doing crazy damage you are doing something wrong. Well I am doing something wrong because I can pilot any Enforcer variant and get better results than I can with a Timberwolf. Dire Wolfs are hit or miss for, sometimes I am all word and sometimes I am lucky to do over 200 damage. As for the rest I vary rarely get over 300 damage, and the poor Shadow Cat I am lucky to get over 100 damage in that one.

When I see all the OP talk I am left to wonder if I am completely missing something with Clan Tech? I just don't see it in most Clan mechs.

Generally speaking I have noticed the following with Clan mechs:
Most AC build up much more ghost heat than than IS counter part
Large Laser or LPL build up much more ghost heat than the IS counter part
Beam duration on all Lasers is much longer than on IS, especially if the IS mech is heavily quirked.
Many of the Clan mechs seem to have very limited hard points (especially after Wave One - Wave One they were lodaded!) and that is even mixing and matching omnipods.

So I try to build/adjust builds accordingly to make it easier for me to overcome these limitations. But even with a decent build I struggle. For example I used the build on my Shadow Cat with LPL Cooldown and Range Modules and never registered above 80 damage in the four matches I played. For the last match I dropped the ML and added a DHS to see if it would make any difference. Nope, 60 damage. I usually do a 2ERPPC Jump Snipping build, but since I am even worse that I thought I would give the LPLs build a shot. Guess I suck either way!
I wish I could say this was not typical, but it is and is with most chassis (not just the Shadow Cat).
Ironically after this I took out my BJ-1X for a few matches and was racking up 400-600 damage with a few kills in most matches. I think I had one bad match out of 8 runs.

I hope I am not the only one who finds it much easier to build and play IS Mechs.

If you have any advice on being a better Clan mech Pilot I'd really like to hear it. Or at least I'd really like to know why so many people find them over powered? I don't even struggle that much facing Clan mechs while piloting IS Mechs. Although I do find the high alphas and the annoying UAC builds to troublesome at times. But usually I can catch them over heated.

Thanks and I hope I am not the only worlds worst Clan mech player!

[Tesunie]

One opinion? Don't look at "metamechs" and just start to create your own builds. A build will typically work better for you if you built it yourself, and you already know how to use it. Then tweak it from there as you see problems. (It isn't a bad idea to gain concepts and ideas from Metamechs, or from observations in a match. However, I find it more rewarding to just create my own builds from scratch.)

I'd like to also point out that clan tech rewards better and more skillful play. Their lasers have longer beam durations, which means you are rewarded when you can keep the laser on target longer. ACs shoot in bursts, which means you are rewarded by keeping your aim on a specific component more. Etc. If not used skillfully, you are going to be more prone to spreading your damage around, which means your targets survive longer and get more use out of their armor.


For clans, I'd recommend typically (not always) trying to stay at range. They have (currently) a larger range advantage. Try to avoid the Timberwolf. People know it's deadly, and will target that over even an Atlas when possible. It's a great mech, but you need to know how to hide with it.

A lot of clan mechs also can suffer from the Dragon's problem. Fast enough to get into trouble, but not fast enough to get out of trouble. Be aware of your team.


As far as the difference between your Shadowcat and Blackjack, look at the Alpha levels. The Blackjack has a 40 point alpha (which also will probably run cooler due to IS lasers producing less heat). The Shadowcat can't seem to boat any weapon system that I could see (not familiar with this chassis). Where as you can easily play to the Blackjack's strengths, you seem to have a harder time playing to either the Shadowcat's strength or to your opponent's weaknesses (which a less boated mech typically needs to do). These two mechs have different playstyles and roles on the battlefield. Sounds like that Shadowcat configuration doesn't suit your current play style/skill set all that well.

Thinking about it a bit, a more mixed (strangely enough) weapon platform may serve you better. Have you considered a build similar to this? Change the SSRMs to SRMs if desired. Has a bit more close range punch you seem to enjoy with that Blackjack. SSRMs will help deal with lights (don't forget your ECM can counter other ECMs!) and actually register damage properly (unlike SRMs, for me at least). If SRMs work fine for you though, changing it may be better. (If you change to SRMs, remove Artemis for weight savings.)
Just a suggestion. Use if you wish.

[Kmieciu]

Learn to use ERML with TC1 and range module. Stay back 464 meters and enjoy 42 damage alpha strikes with no ghost heat.
Shadow cat is a poor mech simply because it cannot boat ERML. That's why, ironically, it's less deadly than an Adder.

Edited by Kmieciu, 20 October 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[Roland09]

Clan Mechs have limited hardpoints? Care to expand on that statement?

A lot of your results will be depending on your team, especially when you are driving a rather slow mech, such as a Dire Wolf (or any 100 ton mech, for that matter). Your opponent will tend to focus on you, going for easy hits on a slow target the size of a barn, or you may get picked apart by a random light mech while your "team" is running away from you. It will happen from time to time.

However, when you consistently do less than 80 damage with that Shadow Cat, that points to your play style being unsuited to the mech you are piloting. Hard to be more specific, without knowing what exactly kills you. For example, to you play the scoot-and-shoot for too long so you get separated from your team, and a pair of lights will catch you? Are you with your main group, and stand still while firing your lasers? Do you over-heat?

Looking at your Black Jack and Shadow Cat builds, why do you have half the rear armor on your SHC, compared to the BJ?

[PeeWrinkle]

Thanks Tesunie.

Much of that makes sense. I should point out that I was only comparing the Shadow Cat to the Blackjack results because that is what I was playing last evening.

They do play a lot different, which I realize. But I should also point out that I just got the Blackjack and was piloting it for the first time. The Shadow Cat is mastered already. After mastering it I just stopped playing it. When leveling the variants I ran them like this mostly: SC build 1, SC build 2, SC build 3 (I did modify them from time to time running dual ERPPC builds, changing from ERLL to MPL for more ammo in some builds etc). I was just trying some new builds last night to see if I could play it any better. I stunk in all the builds.

I could also list builds for just about every clan mech other than the Nova and Stormcrow that was terrible at playing. And when compared to a similar tonnage IS chassis I would always do better in the IS mech.

Here is a better example of what I mean. I configured the following mechs with similar weapons and in the IS mech I always performed significantly better: EBJ-A and the ILYA. In all fairness I don't usually run the EBJ this way, but thought I would try it just to compare a few weeks ago.

My guess, which you kind of confirmed, is the subtle differences in the weapons between the Clan and IS technology and my lack of skill with them are why I continually perform poorly.

If only I could gift my already purchased Clan mechs away, that would be awesome! I rarely play them anymore and really don't enjoy them mostly because I perform so terribly in them.

Roland09 I will try to answer you questions as well.
First for the hardpoints. Many of the Clan mechs in Wave 2 and 3, not matter how you swap in and out omni pods don't allow for much more than four or five weapons, and even fewer allow you boat any. Don't get me wrong I usually don't fill up all the hard points anyway. It just stinks when you realize that on some builds all the hard points are in the same location with not much variety. The mist link and ice ferret are decent examples of this. The Gargoyle and Executioner are decent example with more tonnage. Grant it in one arm you can boat six energy hard points on the Gargoyle, but then you look at your limited tonnage for weapons and what hardpoints you have in your other arm, the usefulness can be limited if you want to run heavy weapons such as a Gauss Rifle. Probably not stating exactly right, but that is the gist of it.
The armor in the torsos in my shadow cat build I did not really adjust when putting it together in smurphys.
As for what kills me, just about everything from what I can tell. Usually I am on the move usually with the pack. It almost feels as if I have a target on my back. LOL

[Leone]

Okay, well, with the Ace of Spades title you obviously know how to play, so it's gotta be something with your playstyle, and weapon choices. ... Or, looking at your builds, it could be the excessive rear armour on those Shadowcats. Seriously, I run assaults with less rear armour than that.

Anyways, weapons styles. Since you mentioned using metamechs, I assume the long range front loaded poking playstyle is your cup of tea? I mention this because that what metamechs is about, and the shadowcat, having plenty of tonnage and few hardpoints, seems designed for it. Then of course you bring up a great sustained fire build, so I am at a loss. Perhaps you are merely more flexible in your playstyle than I. I mean you've a poking build, and hybrid poking and sustained fire, and then a sustained fire Shadowcat, so I am at a loss as to what sort of mech to suggest.

As for the uac 5 disparity, I personally love the IS Ac and Uac 5 and dread the clan version. Odd I know, but their difference, for me, is striking. That said, I also enjoy a good dual uac 10 clan build.

Should you wish it, I would not mind joining you for some CW matches to gauge your playstyle and decide upon a decent build to compliment it. You'd hafta take a one week contract with clan wolf, but I'm game if you are.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 20 October 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[InspectorG]

PeeWrinkle, on 20 October 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

If you have any advice on being a better Clan mech Pilot I'd really like to hear it. Or at least I'd really like to know why so many people find them over powered? I don't even struggle that much facing Clan mechs while piloting IS Mechs. Although I do find the high alphas and the annoying UAC builds to troublesome at times. But usually I can catch them over heated.

Thanks and I hope I am not the only worlds worst Clan mech player!

Well as far as basic advice:

Clans have a range advantage, use it. Look at the Radar often ONE GRID BOX on Radar is 500m x 500m With @700m diagonal. Remember that. Unquirked IS mediums are only good for half that range.

Clan ERML, LPL reach to 500m with ease. IS lazors do not aside from ERLL. The trick is clearing terrain in with those low hanging arms.

So with the lazors you want to trade at range vs IS because they will take a damage penalty(quirks aside).

With Dakka, most will use UAC. So the ghost heat is real because a single UAC20 can easily be one UAC40. Gauss is the favorite because for 15 tons(12+3tons ammo) you can add 15 heatless damage to any hot lazor alpha and fire just the Gauss maintaining some DPS while cooling down.

Clan ERPPCs are generally bad, but ok on some builds. Warhawks can boat the DHS for 4ERPPC. Some poptarts use Gauss+ERPPC. Dires have the tonnage for whatever.

SRMs are smaller and lighter but IS SRMs are better in general. IS LRMs are better as well aside from Clan mechs can usually afford backup weapons.

In a very general sense, Clans favor high alpha style play where many IS mechs favor DPS. So you may need to think and be more patient to fire, wait, fire, wait...all while keeping position and range in mind via the Radar.

So try to keep one Radar box between you and the enemies. When it gets crazy like the end death swirl of a NASCAR, try chain fire to keep the lazors going and twist to spread that damage.

Also, if you mainly Solo, work on positioning and peeking.

If you Group/CW you want to coordinate fire with teammates as they coordinate pushes.

[PeeWrinkle]

Thanks for the offer Leone! I will definitely take you up on it!

The back armor on that build was just what was in smurphy's, and I did not change it. I usually run betwen 8-16 at the most depending on what class mech I'm using. Assaults I usually go with 16, sometime 20 on the 100 tonners.

I am not sure if this means anything, personally I think the system is flawed a bit, but I am a tier 3 pilot. PGI says supporting play styles increase your match score, but I don't think it does significantly. It seems to me that Damage, Kill Assists, Kills, and Component Destruction are weighted much more.


My favorite style of play is skirmishing. I also like brawling and striker roles a lot. But I kind of view skirmisher as a hybrid of the two. I like long range sniping, but I am not great at it, especially jump sniping. I just haven't quite figure that out yet. For sniping I tend to stay at range and position myself around the edges of the battlefield.

For sniping I prefer ERLL and ERPPCs.
For everything else I really like SRMs, All ACs, and Pulse Lasers, although I will boat regular small and medium lasers as well.
I am not great with a Gauss Rifle, just haven't quite figured out the timing yet and I am not sure I have the patients for it. But I like the weapon. The only weapon I don't like are LRMs. I use them on some builds just for a change of pace, but they are very boring weapons to me.

I will say that I change up my play style a lot, mostly to practice and try to be a more well rounded player. Which, since I pug mostly and only jump into CW when there are big events happening, is ok. I would not do that as part of a unit. I'd fill the role they needed me to as best I could. I have to say it is refreshing in a pug match when someone is giving orders and the unit follows them. I guess you could say I enjoy following order as a play style! LOL

Also when in CW as a Clanner I have dropped the following combinations of chassis. I'd have to go back and check my saved builds to give you more info on them. My first mech in a match is usually loaded with ERLL. After that the next 3 are all skirmish types. Ironically I tend to do a lot better in Clan mechs in CW than I do in regular pugs. Probably because of better groups.
1 Timberwolf, 3 Stormcrows
2 Hellbringers, 2 Stormcrows
2 Ebon Jaguars, 2 Stormcrows
1 hellbringer, 1 Ebon Jaguar, 2 Stromcrows

Not sure when you usually play, but we will definitely catch up for a drop or two soon!

Thanks again!

[Spare Parts Bin]

PeeWrinkle you are not alone, I either cause 70 damage or 400-600 with my Direwolves or Warhawks. In CW I just had my third 500 pts of damage game today.

I fail to understand why CW no longer counts for stats or regular accomplishments. Lately my CW games are better than my regular MWO games.

Rant aside Clan Omnis feel more situational than IS Mechs in my humble Tier 5 opinion. I do not always find the right situations for this tech.

[Chados]

Boy howdy, that's dropping some truth.

I'm leveling Thors/Summoners. Because I wanted one chassis-not TimberDeities or StormChucknorrises, if I want to slay for the sake of slaying I'll bring meta Thuds-to play with this trashborn tech and see if the grass really *is* greener on the other side of the fence or not.

Verdict: Jury's deadlocked, Your Honor. Ohmigawd, the heat. They're hot and I got three whole hard points and a 1.46 heat ratio! But I believe I can fly, because this baby will literally vault tall buildings in River City in a single bound. I skidded around a corner in Viridian Bog and ran headlong into an enemy death all led by two Daishis and hit the jets and LEVITATED out of it to the other side of one if those shell things. And ran away at 80kph in an unbasiced 70 ton heavy. Try that in a brand new Thud!

Customizing? It is to laugh. Switching omnipods voids sweet set bonuses that give it mobility supreme. But I have some D variant pods for playing with. And engines and jets are hard wired so if you need weight...strip armor. Well, no. But it can also take a beating like a professional heavyweight boxer on meth.

I have broken 300 only once in 12 drops but never scored under 150 even in a match I was trapped in the tunnel on Crimson Strait and cut down like new mown wheat after a fight to be remembered. I was hard to kill. But I have terrible aim...this is requiring me to relearn how to play. Clan mechs seem to be mobile and tough, with very situational weapons. The missile hard point on the Smn-P is giving me fits. I like two major weapon groups and it wants three!

But I like it. It's...different.

[Tesunie]

Chados, on 23 October 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

The missile hard point on the Smn-P is giving me fits. I like two major weapon groups and it wants three!

Welcome to the Thor.

I personally have a third weapon group for my right shift, as I never think or bother to arm lock in combat. I typically place lock on weapons or back up weapons on that weapon group, such as LRMs or in some mechs my small lasers (like what I do with my Crab that has 2 PPCs and 3 sm lasers).


If you wish to peruse my builds for any inspiration, concepts or out right copy, here they are:
MWO:Mechlab - SMN-PRIME
MWO:Mechlab - SMN-B (For when HSR likes my SRMs)
MWO:Mechlab - SMN-B (For when HSR doesn't like my SRMs.)
MWO:Mechlab - SMN-C (Best performer for me out of the bunch.)
MWO:Mechlab - SMN-D (Second best here.)

[Lord Domino]

Shadowcat is squishy, play it like you would play a 2 x ERLL Raven sniper-- stay back. If the enemy is trying to close the gap, use your speed to back off and keep them at range. Expose yourself only to get a shot off then move back behind cover before they can return fire. None of the lights or mediums can stand up to extended trading against bigger mechs, so use your speed (masc is great for sticking your nose out to fire a shot then quickly hiding again) and use your jump jets to snipe from unexpected locations. The real trick to sniper mechs is to not just sit there in the open waiting for your lasers to come off cool down so you can shoot again. Never fire from the same place twice-- shoot, move, pop up somewhere else and shoot again, then move again, shoot, repeat.

I think your builds are fine-- 2 x LPL or 2 x ERPPC are both great sniper builds on the shadow cat. If you want a more close range build try 2xERML and either an Lbx10 or a UAC10 or perhaps 3 x Streak 6s. Any of those builds works quite well for light hunting, but in general I feel sniper builds are better on a quick, maneuverable mech with a lowide profile and high hard points like the scat. You only need to poke just a sliver of your mech over a hill to get shots off. Close range builds can do some good damage, but the scat rally doesn't have enough armor to be a real in your face brawler.

[PeeWrinkle]

Since posting this a little while back I started playing my Clan mechs a bit more. I took out my Hellbringer. Just my HBR-A with a very conservative build. I did perform a bit better than in the past, but still did very poorly about half the time. My good matches were around 450 damage with 0-2 kills, and my bad ones were around 150 damage. So I guess my average was somewhere in between. And about 90% of those matches were victories because I got lucky and was dropping with very good groups.

Still I am under performing in Clan tech without a doubt.

However it was during this evening of play that I was able to put at least one finger on something that makes Clan tech less desirable for me personally. I have never felt like I can make a build I really enjoy. I also feel like making builds is much more limited, which is odd because on IS mechs the hardpoints are locked for weapons. But I find it much easier.

With this in mind, I experimented by making two builds; one IS and one Clan tech. I wanted to see what would happen if I put 6ML on a 65 Ton chassis for each tech and max out DHS.
This is what I ended up with:
IS Thunderbolt
vs
Clan Hellbringer

Yes I can see that the Clan mech has ECM, Longer range, and is faster. But it also takes 30 vs 21 DHS to dissipate what should be less heat (Table Top rules of course - in MWO it is significantly more heat, which I am actually okay with, I thought TT was way too OP for Clans). Then factor in increased burn time, while they do more damage (higher alpha), they actually end up do less because there is much more splash damage.

When I actually put it in smurphy's I was total shocked to see that it took roughly 9 more DHS to dissipate the heat generated by 6 MLs.

On a more postive side, I am starting to figure the Clans out and am starting to perform slightly better than I was before. However playing about 5 matches in each of the two builds above, the IS mech significantly out performed the Clan mech for me.

Edited by PeeWrinkle, 26 October 2015 - 04:52 PM.