33 replies to this topic

[N0D]

Lets face it: a big number of LRM platforms in enemy team can either be a free ticket to an easy win, or your total doom. This heavily depends on map and different conditions, but not on a personal skill. Seriously, sometimes there are situations where you can't do a damn thing against them. And it's so frustrating, being showered out of nowhere, while nowhere near the actual combat oneself.
Here's a simple question: why can't we have LAMS (laser anti-missile system)? Dem things were invented by Clan Wolf in 3045!
Seriously though, if we could use it, it would not be a total bane for LRMs, and there's heat drawbacks too... however LAMS would surely encourage players to experiment with utility hardware and dedicated antimissile platforms, such as KFX-C. As it is now and as i can tell, no one is using double and triple AMS, because it eats too much weight, spent on ammo.
Why restrict diversity?
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Edit to all those people, who read only the first post:
I'm not whining about LRMs being overpowered! Srsly guys, stop giving me personal anti-LRMs advice, because i know most of it. Just post your opinions on the idea of LAMS itself. Preferably with reasons behind those opinions.

Edited by N0D, 18 October 2015 - 02:49 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Well, just gotta go down the checklist.
-is there a UAV?
-am i being spotted by a light?
-where is the nearest cover
-who has ECM

As far as laser AMS, yeah that would be pretty cool. I wonder how they would balance it, heat maybe?

[Leone]

I actually have a Triple ams Blackhawk. It is one of my most long standing builds. Also, player skill can do alot against LRMs. Problem is, in most normal games, the LRM platforms will allow their teams to defend them by hanging back, and solo players tend to focus only on the first mech infront of them, rather than the battlemap as a whole.

If Lrms are bothering you, sadly, you'll need to flank heavily to crush them, or, position yourself in a safe place and try an take on the entire enemy blocking force so as to open a path to the 'support' mechs. Me, I prefer to flank.

~Leone.

[N0D]

Leone, on 17 October 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Really now. Safe place against LRMs? Like where exactly in the Caustic Valley? Typical PUG solo match: both teams go center and nascar around the crater... One does not simply go flanking enemy missile boats in broad open space by himself - this is plain suicide.

[mailin]

First question for the OP is what are you driving? Do you have a UAV, seismic and radar derp? If the answer to the latter questions is no, then get them. As a rule, try to stay close to your friendly ECM. If there is no ECM in the area, use caution and always know how far away the closest cover is.

There are plenty of safe places away from lrms, but the first thing to ask yourself is who is spotting for them? This goes back to the light or UAV question. If you can't see the enemy but are getting lurmed, look for a UAV. If there is one, take it out. If there isn't check behind you for a light under ecm.

[N0D]

Mailin, i'm piloting this TBR-A, and no, i don't have radar derp installed, despite having it researched. My timber isn't even elited (i don't have 2 another tbr variants yet), so yeah... this one takes priority over modules.
Anyway, what i think is that we must not have something like "this module goes in every mech, no questions asked". This is boring and stupid. Also, my brawling mech isn't suitable to staying always behind cover, where no one can spot me for their team's LRM-no-need-to-even-aim-boats. Like, not suitable AT ALL. I'll always be seen, when i want to deal some damage, because my battle range is 330-400.
...Anyways, problem lies not with me personally. For example, how do all those poor "little" 100tonn assault mechs should go against LRMs? They are generally slow, can't take cover fast, and are actually like shields for their own team. Shields, that are melted even before most of them can do anything useful at all.
I just don't understand, why not LAMS. It shouldn't be an absolute counter to all missiles, it just gives diversity and encouragement to use at least some anti missile options, except ECM (which is not always available) and radar derp (which is sort of costly, keeping in mind that it's only function is mostly just that: prevent LRMs from melting your face)

Edited by N0D, 18 October 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Kotzi]

Push. Easy as that. LRM need time to do damage. When we drop with narcs and LRM we always get killed by aggressiv teams. Those who cower in fear get picked apart slowly. AMS if fine if more people would actually play as a team. It is not supposed to negate LRM it does decrease the damage and gives you time to advance. If you dont and cant kill the spotter you will die. But people tend to use the 1,5 tons rather for something else, almost all my mechs has at least 1 AMS and 1 ton ammo.

Edited by Kotzi, 18 October 2015 - 01:28 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Well okay, you get your LAMS as an "asolute counter to all missiles" and i get a magic AT field as an absolut counter against any sorts of lasers and ballisitcs. How about it?

...Anyways, the problem lies with you personally. Sorry, face it.

You run a non elited timber of all mechs, you are prior target. Not only that, you decide to go toe on toe even while knowing that there are a bunch of lrm supportes on your enemies team.

If you be on the forum for a while, you will people see talking about situational awareness, that is what you lacking (like we all did at one point).
Driving your "prior target" into brawling range and get into the enemies brawling range and midrange.. and sniping range.. and lurmz support range. that is a very poor decision.
As a brawler, LRM and Sniper are your natural enemies.

For a brawler you need to have a very good sense about timing and choosing opporunities. Simply run to your nearest enemy, point you crosshair on it and click repeatedly does not cut it.

Besides, if you think "No need to aim" is all there is to LRM you have still much to learn. Lurmer have a certain playstyle which allows them to develop a very good sense of positioning and situational awareness. That is precisely why they are always in the worst possible spot for you.

Get a radar derp modual asap, it doesn't matter if you think it's stupid or boring (certainly not more boring then yet another magically nullifies all LRM super AMS) it will make your time so much easier.
Also, even if you are a brawler, that does not mean you should not use over (to break locks). In fact, you should do that, a lot. whenever it's possible. always. period.

[N0D]

LOADED, on 18 October 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

Now wait a darn second please. You've got me all twisted. Perhaps you've never read carefully what i and other people wrote... I never said that lurmers are *my* personal weak spot, and therefore i want a hardcounter to them implemented.
First of all, i specifically stated, that LAMS should NOT be an absolute counter. Secondly, i've never stated that LRM boat players do not have a sense of positioning and stuff like that. I said that they don't *need* to actually aim, and that is *the* truth, no matter what you'd like to speculate. Also, what do you mean by this nonsense:
[color=#959595]"Get a radar derp modual asap, it doesn't matter if you think it's stupid or boring (certainly not more boring then yet another magically nullifies all LRM super AMS)"[/color]
???
Again: the only positive feature of supposed LAMS is its ability to never run out of ammo, which is compensated with added heat. As it is with laser vs ballistic weapons. I'm not proposing something ridiculous, you know. And yes, having certain almost mandatory module on all mechs, some of which can equip only 1 mech module, is indeed stupid. The "problem" lies not with me, but with people, who can't see that this situation killes away many options and possibilities to experiment. Why then we even have module slots? Why not just make a "c-bill switch" (as like standard-endosteel) in loadout, to enable radar derp? Cuz by your logic, its not stupid at all to always have radar derp and only it in the mech slot, so all other modules can gtho from the game.
---------------------------------
Edit: Srsly guys, stop giving me personal anti-LRMs advice, because i know most of it. Just post your opinions on the idea of LAMS itself. Preferably with reasons behind those opinions.

Edited by N0D, 18 October 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

As a brawler there are 2 things which you need above all else, they are patience and situational awareness.

If you go charging straight at the enemy without most of your team you will get killed quickly, especially in a Timber Wolf which is the a priority target for the enemy team, only a Dire Wolf is likely to be a higher priority target than you, unfortunately until the teams close you need to wait patently, or take 1 long range weapon (e.g. an ERLL or LRM15) your self so you are not completely useless for half the game.

Situational awareness means knowing what is happening, to get this keep an eye on your minimap and battlegrid so you can see how the battle is progressing, also keep looking around and make sure you stay with the main group until you see your opening to close to brawling range.

So you never want to move into brawling range until you know your team is ready to support you unless you are fighting a lone Mech with few weapons effective at short range.

I own exactly 1 Radar Deprivation for my 120+ Mechs, I got it a few months after it was released and put it on my FS9-E, it has been there ever since, because LRMS are so situational I see no point in taking a 6million cbill counter for them.

I would have no problem with LAMS being introduced bytit should require a specific LAMS hardpoint.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 18 October 2015 - 02:49 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

N0D, on 17 October 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

[...] dedicated antimissile platforms, such as KFX-C. As it is now and as i can tell, no one is using double and triple AMS, because it eats too much weight, spent on ammo.

I do, and did for the last couple of weeks. In fact, I turned to this triple-AMS+ECM-build after the last couple of events which saw an unhealthy rise in LRMs.

And it's awesomely great fun to see swarms and swarms of missiles just evaporate and to imagine the enemy LRM boat pilots getting dissed by their own team for bringing so much dead weight.

Sometimes in fact, I take the liberty of walking really slowly up to an HBK-4J, whose LRMs I can pluck out of the air effortlessly and kill it from point blank.

That's rarely the case though, and it gets really nasty when my 6.000 rounds of ammo are spent.

CU on the battlefield!

[B L O O D W I T C H]

While i do not have a problem with the idea of LAMS i do not see how it would work out ingame.
It would have to be a 3-5 ton 5 slot equipment to not make normal AMS obolete.
The last thing you do not want in a clan mech while under fire is additional heat.
Considering (L)AMS is triggered by passing missiles as well a clan mech mounting it would have no heatreserves to actually engage an enemy. or turn of LAMS which makes it even more pointless.
People ususally do not even mount AMS because there are other, more efficient, ways to counter LRM.
People usually go for more firepower or heatdisposal rather then spend tonnage for an AMS.
People will definitely not spend tonnage AND heat to counter LRM.

Other then that, i certainly would not mind having LAMS ingame. I just think, gameplaywise, it will not work out as well as on paper.


On a sidenote, i would actually mount it if it would make a neet lightshow.

Edited by LOADED, 18 October 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[Surn]

All my lrms have "die clanner" written on the warheads.

[N0D]

LOADED, on 18 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

People ususally do not even mount AMS because there are other, more efficient, ways to counter LRM.

...Which is bad, because things should exist for a reason, right?
Also, i just thought of another drawback for LAMS: the lightshow on the night sky, which perfectly tells where exactly LAMS user is positioned.
And no, LAMS won't make AMS obsolete for exact same reasons that you wrote: the additional heat. Not many mechs have the luxury to swallow heat just for the sake of defending from missiles. However, i do believe, that LAMS should have parameters, based on the old rules:

Quote

[color=#000000]While the standard system utilizes a [/color]machine gun[color=#000000] linked to specialized tracking systems, the LAMS uses a [/color]Small Pulse Laser[color=#000000], ensuring that the system never runs out of ammunition. It still has the same effect of reducing the roll on the cluster table by 4, however a laser system destroys the entire incoming volley on a net result of 1 or less.[/color]^[1]
While solving the frequent lament of the ammunition dependent standard system, the disadvantage is that even with the strength of each laser pulse reduced to the minimum required to destroy missiles, the heat build-up is much more significant.
[color=#000000]The LAMS can be mounted both on [/color]BattleMechs[color=#000000] and [/color]vehicles[color=#000000]. As its heat build-up is high, the unit with an LAMS must carry enough [/color]heat sinks[color=#000000] to counter the higher output it produces (5 heat points for Clan, 7 for Inner Sphere).[/color]

Which means, LAMS should take up SPL size and weight, and generate 5/7 heat per enemy rocket salvo shot down. Also, its clan variant range should also be higher then C-AMS, because clan small pulse laser reaches farther then clan machine gun.

[Chados]

I already carry AMS whenever I can spare the tonnage, so I'd buy a laser system depending on whether I'm running ballistics or lasers/PPCs. Heat buildup will be an issue, it'll hurt energy boats,

I have one radar dep module and I carry it whenever I can. It's helpful to break locks and kill Doritos for other reasons than LRMs, in my opinion.

[Sug]

I saw the title of this thread and said "Wow" so loud the other people in my house came to see what was wrong.


Edit: And I've said it several more times as I read.

Edited by Sug, 18 October 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[ZenFool]

LAMS should be in the game. The reason it probably hasn't been implemented is that people don't use the current AMS, or very rarely. They don't bring it because lrms are not very good. I expect we'll see more AMS after the new balance pass, and maybe then someone will give your your LAMS. Until then, invest in a module. That's what literally EVERYONE else did.

[Tesunie]

No offense, and I am not against the LAMS being introduced into the game, but I can see this being quite punishing in the wrong (or right) situation. 5-7 heat per volley (which sounds about right) is a lot. I could see someone seeing the LAMS shooting off into the sky, and then pounding round after round of missiles into the target until they overheat. Particularly in combat. (I'd do it, even without a lock on too, just to push your heat as I shoot other weapons at you.)

The extra heat would probably place it into the scrap pile for many people, and only of limited use otherwise. (15-21 heat for a triple version of this would be a dedicated build just to keep it cooled. Might actually press it even harder than the ammo version in weight to make it work.)

In MW:O, it would probably be of very limited use overall. It's be good for when not in direct combat, and then useless when actually engaged within combat actions.


(I can see someone trolling with the build too. Turn it on, take as many as possible (3 in some cases), press Override, and then deal 0 damage, pop from overheating and claim that they participated so you can't report them for none participation or intentional suicide...)

[Not A Real RAbbi]

N0D, on 17 October 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Lets face it: a big number of LRM platforms in enemy team can either be a free ticket to an easy win, or your total doom. This heavily depends on map and different conditions, but not on a personal skill. Seriously, sometimes there are situations where you can't do a damn thing against them. And it's so frustrating, being showered out of nowhere, while nowhere near the actual combat oneself.
Here's a simple question: why can't we have LAMS (laser anti-missile system)? Dem things were invented by Clan Wolf in 3045!
Seriously though, if we could use it, it would not be a total bane for LRMs, and there's heat drawbacks too... however LAMS would surely encourage players to experiment with utility hardware and dedicated antimissile platforms, such as KFX-C. As it is now and as i can tell, no one is using double and triple AMS, because it eats too much weight, spent on ammo.
Why restrict diversity?
---------------
Edit to all those people, who read only the first post:
I'm not whining about LRMs being overpowered! Srsly guys, stop giving me personal anti-LRMs advice, because i know most of it. Just post your opinions on the idea of LAMS itself. Preferably with reasons behind those opinions.

Kinda wondered that myself, but wasn't sure what year the system was introduced in lore, and wasn't interested enough to look it up on sarna.net.

So, at the current date in-game, we'd have it for Clans but not IS. As there's a perceived balance problem, that might explain why it's not around yet. On the other hand, given that we're trying to FRY Clan mechs with higher-heat laser weapons, adding a LAMS that has a significant heat impact might not be THAT big a deal. It's not every match that a mech with a single AMS runs out even a .5t ammo bin, so maybe.

***EDIT*** Let's not forget that we DO have a control to toggle AMS on and off, so the additional heat potential for LAMS could be addressed thus by mechwarriors carrying the system live in a match. ***EDIT***

I suspect that when the updates derived from the latest 2 PTS iterations go live, we may THEN see some attention paid to this system.

Glad someone else thinks of this stuff, and it's not just me being a nerd. Cheers!

Edited by TheRAbbi, 18 October 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[Sug]

Kotzi, on 18 October 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Push. Easy as that.