15 replies to this topic

[Goose]

These changes go through, we still need ECM to be hardpointed?

Remember how that was a way to "lessen" it's effectiveness, first wave of nerfs?

[Livewyr]

Goose, on 21 October 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

These changes go through, we still need ECM to be hardpointed?

Remember how that was a way to "lessen" it's effectiveness, first wave of nerfs?

Yes. (Hell, BAP should be hardpointed too...AMS too.)

[Loganauer]

For that matter, lets just make jump jets, ammo and heatsinks hardpointed

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Yes. (Hell, BAP should be hardpointed too...AMS too.)

AMS is hardpointed.

[Livewyr]

Loganauer, on 21 October 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

For that matter, lets just make jump jets, ammo and heatsinks hardpointed

lel, we already half-do that for clans....

LOADED, on 22 October 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

AMS is hardpointed.

I mean variant specific. (My first inclination was that the OP was going for removing the variant restriction, such as we have for AMS and BAP.)

If he's just talking about where it is on the mech, go for it, I don't care. If he's talking about making it available to every mech..
No. (And AMS and BAP should not be available to every mech.)

[Koniving]

Loganauer, on 21 October 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

For that matter, lets just make jump jets, ammo and heatsinks hardpointed

I had this thought.
For a Battletech simulator.... not for MWO.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yes, lets...

Spoiler

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Seriously though, I'd have no problem having hardpoints for gear that makes sense.

Some aspects are limited availability, or requiring special factors like AMS or TAG.

So one thing I'd love to see is at least give TAG (and possibly NARC) it's own unique hardpoint, that can then be distributed with balance and parity in mind and to stock loadouts.

I'd have no problem keeping ECM with a hardpoint or seeing other Equipment receive the same treatment as ECM or AMS having unique Hardpoints from the standard, Ballistic, Energy and Missile Hardpoints.

---

The goal being not to remove from stock builds, and the adding such as having the SDR-5V be 2 E, 1 TAG for example.

And then we could see tweaks to the equipment such as infrared TAG when not seen with Night Vision or Thermal.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 22 October 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Yes. (Hell, BAP should be hardpointed too...AMS too.)

Damn it Livewyr :V your concept of balance continues disappoint me. BAP doesn't need to be hard-pointed and AMS needs to be common enough to fight off LRMs once the Jesus Box loses it's holy touch. I don't see how BAP is in need of some kind of chassis specific nerf.

Care to elaborate?

[Livewyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 22 October 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Damn it Livewyr :V your concept of balance continues disappoint me. BAP doesn't need to be hard-pointed and AMS needs to be common enough to fight off LRMs once the Jesus Box loses it's holy touch. I don't see how BAP is in need of some kind of chassis specific nerf.

Care to elaborate?

Just as only certain mechs are boosted in their usefulness by having ECM, certain mechs can be boosted in their usefulness by having AMS and BAP, instead of everyone having it.

A properly functioning BAP (not "Elite Advanced Sensor Range Module") could pay serious dividends and help balance mechs, especially with the upcoming information warfare changes. Information warfare hasn't been a thing because every mech on the live server is exactly the same in how it collects information. When Information warfare finally worms it's way into combat, (such as we saw in the PTS), BAP will have more use than just ECCM. Let those certain mechs be special.


In regards to AMS...
Missiles have lock, but that is all they have going for them.
They are slow, give the player a nice warning that they are coming, and don't bother with terrain... so unless you're brain dead or in the middle of an open field.. they are easy to avoid. (Hell, even their old bastion in Caustic Valley has been reworked.)

Why does every mech need a counter to them? Why can't certain mechs bring that for their team?


--------------------------------
Following the concept of "All equipment for everyone" as balance to its logical end... why not give every mech JJs and call it good? (You could apply the same logic to weapon hardpoints, ECM, etc...)

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 22 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Just as only certain mechs are boosted in their usefulness by having ECM, certain mechs can be boosted in their usefulness by having AMS and BAP, instead of everyone having it.

A properly functioning BAP (not "Elite Advanced Sensor Range Target Info Gathering Module ") could pay serious dividends and help balance mechs, especially with the upcoming information warfare changes. Information warfare hasn't been a thing because every mech on the live server is exactly the same in how it collects information. When Information warfare finally worms it's way into combat, (such as we saw in the PTS), BAP will have more use than just ECCM. Let those certain mechs be special.

While I didn't see any evidence of info warfare on the PTS, besides the horrid ghost damage nonsense, I suppose I can see what you are saying. Are you suggesting that PGI buff BAP in exchange for making it chassis exclusive? I might be able to get behind that I take that back, I whole heartedly support this suggestion; bring back the days when you needed BAP to get a paper doll. Hooray for another thing my Nova can have that a (timeline) Stormcrow Can't!

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 October 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 22 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

In regards to AMS...
Missiles have lock, but that is all they have going for them.
They are slow, give the player a nice warning that they are coming, and don't bother with terrain... so unless you're brain dead or in the middle of an open field.. they are easy to avoid. (Hell, even their old bastion in Caustic Valley has been reworked.)

Why does every mech need a counter to them? Why can't certain mechs bring that for their team?

LRMs need a buff to direct fire (namely a velocity and accuracy increase), and a nerf to indirect fire (should still be possible, but less effective) IMO. The reason nobody is ever happy with the state of LRMS is because they are either annoying as hell and useless, or annoying as hell and useful. In either situation they are annoying as hell to fight, and it's because boats can hide outside of LOS and still lay down suppressing fire; they get damage for almost no risk.

The ECM hard counter managed to make LRMs a pain in the ass for the user AND the target. Converting LRMs into a better direct fire weapon will encourage boats not to hide as much and will make fighting them much less infuriating, regardless of how effective or ineffective they are. Once that becomes the case, you will see much less backlash towards straight buffing them.

One way to achieve this is to increase LRM speed with direct line of sight, and slow it down when there is no line of sight; this will increase or decrease the effectiveness of AMS based on whether the LRM boat is putting himself on the front line with his teammates or not.

The reason I'm cautious about specializing mechs further is because the more specialized mechs become, the worse the quality of life in the pug queue becomes. But I suppose you could say to hell with the PUGs, in wich case: if you are going to make AMS rarer, you need to make it better, that's all I'll say. Indirect fire must be kept in check.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 October 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 22 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Following the concept of "All equipment for everyone" as balance to its logical end... why not give every mech JJs and call it good? (You could apply the same logic to weapon hardpoints, ECM, etc...)

False Dilemma; the middle ground is often a good place for balance, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

[Rhalgaln]

ECM should simply reduce the targeting range of all mechs in sensor range of the ecm mech to 50%.

So if an ecm mech touches the targeting range of an assult of 500m the sensor range of that assault should be reduced to 250m.
This way it dows not prevent any lock because if the assault has company of a light mech with 1000m range which is also affected by the ECM that range would be reduced to 500m, giving the assault the option to target the ecm mech, if the light focusses on that mech.

If you do not understand how this works, just install any mechcommander which had that mechanism.
ECM was very useful but not that way overpowered as it in in MWO.

In fact information warfare was a very important mechanism in mechcommander.

[Cataclysm315]

I'm up for hardpointing BAP, the only problem I could see is in pug matches you might not necessarily have a good enough scout on your team which would mean you get ***** slapped by the enemy team repeatedly. The ammo and heat sink hardpoint though, please god no xD

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Hardpoints for BAP/CAP (and I think sensor suites, as well; but that's a different discussion) are a very good idea.

We could give them some real and valuable function (like actually countering ECM!!!) and not worry about everyone having them.

MWO already went down the hardpoint road by choosing to use them for weapons and some equipment. They should go all the way and do it with most everything.

It's a much preferable way to make chassis/variants function different to the quirks of the last PTS. And, since I have to choose whether or not to spend the tonnage, it maintains the meaningfulness of player choice.

[Loganauer]

I think ECM and BAP should be improved to the point where they need a hardpoint, but improved in complex, conviluted ways, not "make myself and everyone around untargetable" OP silliness.