22 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

I'm one of the few crazies left that occasionally runs a dedicated missile boat build. Granted, I think LRMs are a weak enough weapons system that I only bother with them when running this specific mech and build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8f7152fb8b8d0be
^Fiddle with the lasers and armor to your liking, you have options there. This is just one configuration I particularly like.

Anyway, the point is: On maps like the old Caustic, old Forest Colony, and the current Alpine, I could usually just rain all day on the enemy even with ECM factored in because cover was just hard to maintain on those maps. I would smile evilly to myself every time I got one of them, cause I knew I would be ruining the enemy's day all match long. Then came the map reboots. Caustic has ample cover now, as does Forest colony. There are giant trees everywhere you can stand behind, and with all the new Arctic Cheaters running around since it just got released for c-bills you are lucky to even GET a lock, let alone maintain one. You can still be a terror in a missile boat on Alpine, but it will probably get rebooted soon with more cover like the others.

So with all these new cover-heavy maps and the absolutely huge amounts of ECM mechs in use now, the already weak LRM has been kicked in the face while it was already down. I know there is an ECM re-work planned but there have been re-works planed for it forever and they never seem to actually happen. Even if we DO get a proper ECM re-work it doesn't solve the super-abundant cover issue. We only have 3 types of weapons as it is in MWO: lasers, ballistics, and missiles, and you almost never see LRMs any more. We are losing game diversity, and it's ending up nothing but laser vomit and gauss. I think LRMs need a serious buff, and need it right now. An ECM nerf won't do the job because of the way the new maps are all being loaded with easy cover.

So, any ideas on how to properly save and balance the miserable LRM?

[Alistair Winter]

I\d say the same thing that a lot of people have been saying the last few years.

• Make it harder to get missile locks. Right now, getting the missile lock is too easy. Getting a missile lock on a Locust moving at 170 kph at 900 meter range should be really hard. I would change it so you need to have the cursor aiming directly at the mech itself, instead of just anywhere in the big red target square.
  
• Improve missile speed and / or lower missile trajectory. A lot! Getting back to cover shouldn't be so easy. For mechs with a combination of LRMs and direct-fire weapons to be effective, the travel time needs to be really low. Ideally, the LRM travel speed should be so high that you can play builds like the iconic PPC+LRM Griffin effectively.
  
• Let LRMs dumbfire at less than 180 meter range. I know a lot of people are worried about facetanking 4xLRM15 assaults, but I'm honestly not too worried about it. LRM15 does maximum 15 damage, SRM6 does maximum 12.9 damage. The 6xLRM10 CPLT-A1 wouldn't really compete with the 6xSRM6 CPLT-A1 in terms of DPS, due to the heat.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 22 October 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[cSand]

I would wait and see how the new balance deal with updated ECM works before we touch LRMs

Some of the big mistakes to weapons changes have been nerfing one thing while buffing another simulateously and ending up with [insert weapon here]-ageddon

[Mcchuggernaut]

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Make it harder to get missile locks. Right now, getting the missile lock is too easy. Getting a missile lock on a Locust moving at 170 kph at 900 meter range should be really hard.

A competent LRM user doesn't bother to fire at anything small and fast at that range anyway. Missile travel time takes so long at out beyond 700 meters that even a Dire can find and get to cover before they get hit. In fact, if you get LRMd nowadays on a map other than Alpine, it's probably because you were an idiot and stood in the open.

[Mcchuggernaut]

cSand, on 22 October 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I would wait and see how the new balance deal with updated ECM works before we touch LRMs

Some of the big mistakes to weapons changes have been nerfing one thing while buffing another simulateously and ending up with [insert weapon here]-ageddon

True, but how long have we been waiting for an ECM rebalance? Years now. In the meantime the game ages and we spend those years playing a broken game, spending our money on it, waiting for "Soon TM" to arrive because we like Battletech? Past experience with this game has taught me not to expect what we are told will happen soon to actually happen.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 22 October 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[Ultimax]

The only way for them to be improved are to completely remove the crutch aspects of lock ons (non-aimed) and indirect fire (low risk).

Then they could improve travel speed, travel trajectory by a lot.

You would have to risk return fire, you would have work for LoS positions but you would be rewarded with a weapon that is more engaging and provides greater rewards and functionality.


I'd use the hell out of them if they did that.

[cSand]

Mcchuggernaut, on 22 October 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

True, but how long have we been waiting for an ECM rebalance? Years now. In the meantime the game ages and we spend those years playing a broken game, spending our money on it, waiting for "Soon TM" to arrive because we like Battletech? Past experiences with this game has taught me not to expect what we are told will happen soon to actually happen.

Well let's put it this way

the ECM change is gonna go live before any LRM changes, so I guess we'll see

how long that will take.. anyone's guess

[Lightfoot]

What about those rock pillars that popped up in the shallow end of River City? Just to keep mechs from shooting down the river with whatever when the map has an entire city of brawler range to force short range. I rofl'd when I saw that. Maps are best with a variety of terrains not a jungle of obstacles everywhere.

LRMs are definitely worthless now. PGI never does a halfway nerf it seems.

[Alistair Winter]

Mcchuggernaut, on 22 October 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

In fact, if you get LRMd nowadays on a map other than Alpine, it's probably because you were an idiot and stood in the open.

So 99% of MWO players are idiots. Well, that's one perspective. I'm not sure it's very useful in a discussion about balance, but it's certainly one perspective.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

So 99% of MWO players are idiots. Well, that's one perspective. I'm not sure it's very useful in a discussion about balance, but it's certainly one perspective.

Ok, let me clarify that a bit: If you are being targeted by an enemy while you are engaged and don't have tall cover between yourself and an LRM boat you can get messed up with LRMS and there isn't much you can do about it. That is if anyone on the enemy team that notices you actually has LRMs. On top of that, this situation only happens if you have been forced out of cover, or wandered into the open. What I mean is that 99% of the time you can avoid getting LRMd with a little good judgement and positioning. I almost never get hit with them, even in assault mechs. I used to back in the days of all the big maps with little cover. Now though...

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 22 October 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

After all the lrm nerfing and lrm cry babies still crying they need to just remove them from the game.
Remove the flamer too.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 22 October 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Monkey Lover, on 22 October 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Remove the flamer too.

I think the flamer should work like sticky napalm. You spray a stream of it on an enemy mech, and it sticks to them while it burns. It does no damage, but while it burns, their heat bar fills up to around 20-30% or so by default. That way you couldn't make an enemy shut down with it, but they wouldn't be able to fire at you as quickly as normal without overheating. I think it would be a great balancing weapon this way: It would help curb all the laser-vomit, it would increase TTK which is at an all-time low right now, and it would help get autocannons and particularly the LB-X used more often. To avoid people spamming and abusing the flamer, it needs to also have one ton per-shot fuel "cannisters" for it's ammo.

Think of this glorious scenario: A Timbervomit starts poking at you. You hit him with a shot from the flamer. He gets covered in roaring flames, which also partially obscure his vision. You now have a window of time to charge and out-dps him because he suddenly can't use his cheap mixed laser build without shutting down. You kill him. He rage quits and decides to put some ballistics in his build next time. This happens thousands of times to lots of players. Laser vomit becomes a thing of the past and disappears from MWO. Mixed builds and variety are restored. All thanks to the humble flamer.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 22 October 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

• Make it harder to get missile locks. Right now, getting the missile lock is too easy. Getting a missile lock on a Locust moving at 170 kph at 900 meter range should be really hard. I would change it so you need to have the cursor aiming directly at the mech itself, instead of just anywhere in the big red target square.

1) Getting a lock on any target you want, at any time isn't "easy" by any standards. HOLDING said lock, even if you've gotten it, is harder. Doing it WHILE the target can use any of the abundant pieces of cover on the new maps, is even harder.

2) WHY should it "be hard" to get a lock on a light? So they can be better at surviving everything all the time? They already ignore 90% of the entire weapons platforms damage EVEN IF IT HITS.... and you want to make them even more difficult to kill with the weapon? Talk about being biased.

3) Have you ever actually used LRMs.... AND paid attention. You DO have to keep the pointer over the mech as opposed to "just in the box" to GET THE LOCK.....once the lock is achieved THAT'S WHEN you only have to "keep it anywhere" in the box. So, you're wish is granted.... missles have already been nerfed into the suggestion you've made. Seriously, use the weapon before making suggestions to "improve" it.

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

• Improve missile speed and / or lower missile trajectory. A lot! Getting back to cover shouldn't be so easy. For mechs with a combination of LRMs and direct-fire weapons to be effective, the travel time needs to be really low. Ideally, the LRM travel speed should be so high that you can play builds like the iconic PPC+LRM Griffin effectively.

1) Yes they really do need a speed buff. Not a lot, but enough to get the missles to the target without the user needing to just cross their fingers and hope that despite them doing everything right, more than 30% of their weapon will hit.

2) They actually need their "departing mech" trajectory INCREASED....again not a lot...but a few degrees for sure. Anyone that "suggests" that LRMs need their trajectory flattened out really is just mad the ENTIRETY of MWO isn't direct fire camp spam fest....and wants to "improve" LRMs to the point that their nothing but a direct fire long range streak missle.

LRMS SHOULD NOT BE DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS.... they should the counter to them.

Get the drop on a direct fire platform not in cover, you win.

He catches you without something to lob your missles over, you lose.

If you're using LRMs in a fight where your enemy can shoot you back, you're doing it wrong.

3) Seriously. LRMS AREN'T DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS. Ok I'll try again since you're dense. LRMS AREN'T DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS. There, surely you've gotten it by now. No? Sigh. Alright. LRMS AREN'T DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS. Whew.

4) You want COD with mechs? Add LRMs to the list of direct fire weapons that currently include literally ever single other weapon in the game. You want a game that requires tactics, planning, and paying attention to your environment? Make LRMs good at what they're in the game to be good at. COUNTERING DIRECT FIRE.

*can't finish replying, IRL*

[Alistair Winter]

The Atlas Overlord, on 22 October 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

words

Well, that got personal.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Well, that got personal.

I don't think it was really personal. Guy just seems really fed up with how LRMs are treated in MWO and is strongly opinionated. I agree that missile trajectory doesn't need lowered because that would make shooting over things pretty much impossible. Increasing the speed would help though.

[Alistair Winter]

Mcchuggernaut, on 22 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

I don't think it was really personal. Guy just seems really fed up with how LRMs are treated in MWO and is strongly opinionated.

No excuse to talk like that. Not even worth debating.

Mcchuggernaut, on 22 October 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Ok, let me clarify that a bit: If you are being targeted by an enemy while you are engaged and don't have tall cover between yourself and an LRM boat you can get messed up with LRMS and there isn't much you can do about it. That is if anyone on the enemy team that notices you actually has LRMs. On top of that, this situation only happens if you have been forced out of cover, or wandered into the open. What I mean is that 99% of the time you can avoid getting LRMd with a little good judgement and positioning. I almost never get hit with them, even in assault mechs. I used to back in the days of all the big maps with little cover. Now though...

There are a lot of open areas on most maps. People get hit by LRMs lots of places on Canyon Network, on Frozen Colony, on Caustic, on Alpine, on Forest Colony, Viridian Bog, and even some of the other maps, which are more dense.

But yeah, the best players will avoid LRMs quite easily. I don't mind if their trajectory is the same, while their speed is increased significantly. The point is that they need to hit their target real fast. If it takes 10 seconds for them to hit their target, then they will be both ineffective and incompatible with other weapon types. People make jokes about assault mechs with LRMs as support weapons, but that shouldn't be a joke at all, within the parameters of the Battletech universe. The effectiveness of LRMs as support weapons and secondary weapons is established in lore. It just doesn't work in MWO because they're not balanced properly.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Mcchuggernaut, on 22 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

I don't think it was really personal. Guy just seems really fed up with how LRMs are treated in MWO and is strongly opinionated. I agree that missile trajectory doesn't need lowered because that would make shooting over things pretty much impossible. Increasing the speed would help though.

I think he's just upset someone disagrees with him, and doesn't have anything to counter the points with besides "but they're not direct fire....so they should be direct fire....b/c they're not direct fire....so they should be direct fire."

But he added a gif.... so his argument holds like 1000% more water now right?

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 22 October 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Ugh...This ^^^ Is why we can't have nice things.

[wanderer]

Honestly, for every time I get killed by LRMs, I die 40+ times to beam weapons or ballistics. The real obstacle lies at the top- I don't think we'll have common sense fixes to the game until Paul is replaced and someone genre-savvy and competent replaces him.

LRMs have spamming issues. Increase damage, increase reload time correspondingly. The latter has happened before as part of balancing attempts.

LRMs have severe accuracy issues over half their effective range. Have LRMs build velocity over distance and reach a higher-than current velocity at 500m, peaking at 700m traveled. Reduce initial velocity slightly.

LRMs are utterly boned by ECM. This doesn't even make sense. Increase spread and reduce tracking speed/lockon time on ECM-covered targets instead to non-Artemis levels. That is, canonically exactly what ECM does- and Artemis is almost a given on any LRM-lobber in the game given it's benefits.

Increase spread on targets fired on within 180m rather than eliminate damage entirely- minimum range in TT is an accuracy loss, not damage prevention.

Treat Clantech LRMs as having damage potential and reload times similar to equivalent IS launchers if you want balance. CLRM20s should deal damage similar to an IS LRM10, for example. (For that matter, Clan SRMs should be much the same, and Streaks.)

[AztecD]

longer lock time, but missiles follow target even if reticle lock is lost, like every other MW game