14 replies to this topic

[Loganauer]

So, the biggest problem with the heat system in this game is that heatsinks for some reason change your heat capacity. They were never designed to do that in any other iteration of mechwarrior/battletech. This has resulted in a game meta where energy weapons are dominant. What needs to happen is that the heat cap should be 30 (increased to 40 or 50 with mech talent trees) with dissipation significantly increased. Lasers are extremely effective for their weight, other weapons are not. With the lowered heat dissipation, the much hated ghost heat can finally die, being no longer necessary.
This would also come with heat penalties, such as slower movement, increased cooldown times, chance of ammo jam or explosion, heatsink overload, damage to engine, damage to weapon being fired, slower target acquisition, lowered radar range, increased cone of fire spread, gaussian blur/increased bloom, and pilot damage. Penalty perhaps depending on mech chassis/variant

Another important factor is active/passive radar. This is a very important concept for information warfare and role warfare, a concept that has worked very well in previous mechwarrior games and especially important for ECM and BAP. There's a lot of functionality these systems could have that would be balanced, but without active/passive radar, that's very limited. Also indirect LRM fire should not be a thing without TAG or NARC.
BAP functionality: 360 radar, detects mech class in radar range, enable IR/UV vision, gives last known enemy mech location, displays armor amount, location of weapons/ammo, and engine type of targeted mech
ECM functionality: Allies within 360m cannot be detected by radar without direct LOS, Missile locks take longer, cancels bonuses of NARC, Artemis, Targeting Computer and detailed mech info from BAP. Creates fake "ghost targets" to enemies within 180m making the ECM mech more difficult to target.


As for Clans vs. IS, a couple of things. Mercs should NEVER be able to fight for clans. That's kind of against everything that both the clans AND that mercs stand for. I would suggest rearm and repair being reintroduced to the game, with certain factions getting discounts for certain mechs depending on the faction. Mercenaries can use clan mechs but can only fit IS tech on them, furthermore clan mechs can now be fully customized (endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, etc.)

In addition, the game should be balanced 10vs12 Clan vs. IS, but the drawback for clans is a zellbriggen scoring system to determine a players match score and rewards. The first time a clan player encounters and fires on an enemy mech, the enemy mech is selected (and displayed to allies) as someone who that player is engaged in zellbrigen with, and firing on other mechs or running away (unless you're a much lower weight class) will result in fewer rewards.

I would also suggest limiting how many mercenary or large unit contracts a faction can have, in the interest of game balance with player populations, or changing the amount of drops it takes to capture based on player population. When a game is unbalanced with players PSR, I could suggest more rewards for the lower PSR, lower artillery/air strike cooldowns, stronger turrets/dropships, increased mech mastery/module benefits (or reduced for enemy team), double armor (or half armor for enemy team), reduced cooldown times (or increased cooldown times for enemy team) since in CW the matchmaker is non-existent, and there has to be something to keep high end, competitive teams interested in continuing to play, and something to give the weaker players a hand.

Another problem that has plagued the game is pinpoint firing of Gauss and ERPPCs. The obvious solution is add cone of fire spread to the game, and include eliminating the spread with targeting computer, and making targeting computer weigh 1 ton for every 5 tons of equipment it's linked to, as well as halving laser durations for lasers it's linked to. Make targeting computers available to the IS for the sake of balance. This allows the annoying charge mechanic for the gauss rifle to be removed.
For laser balancing, aside from heat changes, make laser duration increase by 25% for every laser fired together.

For mech quirks, make those dealt with through mech mastery, rather than having the same unlocked content for every single mech. I might suggest adding a pilot leveling system that's tied to this, and for dealing with modules. A gunnery pilot skill could reduce cone of fire spread as well.

Sorry for going all over the place, I have a lot of stuff I've been sitting on for awhile and this is me restraining myself. There's a lot of potential for improvement with this game.

Edited by Loganauer, 22 October 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Khobai]

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So, the biggest problem with the heat system in this game is that heatsinks for some reason change your heat capacity. They were never designed to do that in any other iteration of mechwarrior/battletech.

This is completely false. Heatsinks did in fact raise heat capacity in battletech.

If you had 10 DHS you could generate 50 heat before automatically shutting down

But you had 20 DHS you could generate 70 heat before automatically shutting down.

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What needs to happen is that the heat cap should be 30 (increased to 40 or 50 with mech talent trees) with dissipation significantly increased. Lasers are extremely effective for their weight, other weapons are not. With the lowered heat dissipation, the much hated ghost heat can finally die, being no longer necessary.
This would also come with heat penalties, such as slower movement, increased cooldown times, chance of ammo jam or explosion, heatsink overload, damage to engine, damage to weapon being fired, slower target acquisition, lowered radar range, increased cone of fire spread, gaussian blur/increased bloom, and pilot damage. Penalty perhaps depending on mech chassis/variant

And then there would literally be NO reason to use anything but dual gauss.

Dual gauss would still do high pinpoint damage without suffering any heat penalties. Meanwhile every other weapon would be severely limited in its ability to do high pinpoint damage in addition to incurring heat penalties.

The problem was never the heatscale. The problem has always been convergence.

The reason lasers are too effective for their weight is because you can converge all your lasers into one location. Theyre no longer seperate weapons at that point: they just become one big deathstar superlaser. The correct fix is not some half-ass heatscale bandaid, but rather adding a game mechanic which severely reduces the compounding effect of convergence.

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Another problem that has plagued the game is pinpoint firing of Gauss and ERPPCs. The obvious solution is add cone of fire spread to the game

No. RNG should not be part of this game at all. Someone whos more skilled at aiming shouldnt be punished for it by RNG cone of fire.

A better and completely non-random way of basically doing the same thing would be to have a fixed percentage of damage (say 25%) automatically transfer outwards to an undestroyed adjacent location. For example, if your side torso gets hit, 25% of the damage transfers to an attached and undestroyed arm or a leg (whichever is closest to the point of impact).

That mechanic would spread damage around similar to cone of fire but does it in a completely non-random and predictable way.

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For mech quirks, make those dealt with through mech mastery, rather than having the same unlocked content for every single mech. I might suggest adding a pilot leveling system that's tied to this, and for dealing with modules. A gunnery pilot skill could reduce cone of fire spread as well.

Why? This would just increase the power divide further between new players and old players. The only problem with quirks is they got out of hand when they went above 20%. Just limit quirks to 10%-20% and there shouldnt be any balance problems with them.

Edited by Khobai, 20 October 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Loganauer]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink
http://www.sarna.net...ouble_Heat_Sink

Nothing mentioned about increasing the capacity until shutdown at all. You're going to need to cite a source where you could generate 70 heat before shutting down. As I understand it, the rules have almost universally been that it went to 30, however there was another set of rules where it was able to go to 50 before shutting down but facing brutal heat penalties in doing so. But this had nothing to do with number of heat sinks.


As for dual gauss, that's the reason for cone of fire spread, and recoil. For a clan mech, you'd need a 5 ton targeting computer to put that back to pinpoint with what I'm suggesting. Also, that doesn't even mech sense that you think there'd be no reason to use other weapons. Heat penalties don't mean your mech shuts down and explodes, you realize? I mean, unless you want to be able to fire 4 ERPPCs without penalty.

On convergeance, I'm all ears on -how- to fix convergeance, but I think it'd be easier to simply extend the duration of lasers based on how many you fire.

You know most FPS games have cone of fire spread for most weapons, right? It still takes skill to aim, but if you're wanting to sit at 1200m and snipe then you're not going to have as much success as you would at 500m. It's not punishing skilled players, it's punishing sniping and punishing the people such as yourself that wants to use dual gauss to exploit pinpoint firing. RNG is a part of almost every game, and it's historically a part of battletech.

PPCs already spread damage like you suggest, and while it might work for large caliber autocannons, it wouldn't make sense for gauss rifles from a lore point of view in how the weapon functions. The cone of fire spreading would -mainly- impact Gauss rifles and ERPPCs. They've been constantly modified with the projectile speed, charge mechanic, and ghost heat which are -extremely- annoying ways of trying to balance the weapon, and cone of fire spread is simply the logical, sensible choice. If you love pinpoint so much, dedicate a targeting computer to the weaponry, which is tonnage dependent.


I'm not entirely attached to quirks, but it adds a neat flavour to the game that has potential. It doesn't seem to make much sense to even have quirks if they aren't handled through mech mastery. As for the divide between new players and old players...there already is a massive one that's reflected in actual player skill. That's why PSR exists. At least unlocking it through mech mastery adds new content for older players to play through and enjoy, rather than the crappy same mech mastery that we have where every mech has the same unlocks.

Edited by Loganauer, 20 October 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Loganauer]

And I just want to throw out a very important point. PGI trying to balance clan tech and IS tech until they're equal is completely messed up. It defeats the entire premise of the clans entirely and if PGI isn't ready to actually create a proper 10vs12 balancing, then introducing the clan mechs was just a moneygrab because people like the clans. Clantech -is- better than IS tech and will always be, otherwise it wouldn't be clantech and PGI shouldn't have even brought the clans to the game if they want to remake clantech into IS tech with a different name.

[Eggs Mayhem]

Loganauer, on 20 October 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink
http://www.sarna.net...ouble_Heat_Sink

Nothing mentioned about increasing the capacity until shutdown at all. You're going to need to cite a source where you could generate 70 heat before shutting down. As I understand it, the rules have almost universally been that it went to 30, however there was another set of rules where it was able to go to 50 before shutting down but facing brutal heat penalties in doing so. But this had nothing to do with number of heat sinks.

Going by his example with a 10 DHS mech:

Start of turn: 0 Heat.
Fire weapons: 50 Heat
Sink Heat: 30 Heat
Resolve Heat Effects: Auto-shutdown.

Thus the capacity is truly 50 Heat for a 10 DHS mech.

[PhoenixX2]

Loganauer, on 20 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

So, the biggest problem with the heat system in this game is that heatsinks for some reason change your heat capacity. They were never designed to do that in any other iteration of mechwarrior/battletech. This has resulted in a game meta where energy weapons are dominant. What needs to happen is that the heat cap should be 30 (increased to 40 or 50 with mech talent trees) with dissipation significantly increased.

Page 158 of Classic Battletech Total Warfare contradicts your statement. Read the section labeled Heat points.

[Tarl Cabot]

I see how Khobia is approaching it from the Battletech boardgame (10 sec/round). Regardless of how much heat being generated, if your mech has 20 DHS=40heat that can be disperse/round.

Now, take Solaris boardgame (2.5 sec/round), that has different weapon cooldown timers, its Heat Scale was set at 120 (30*4 round BT rounds) with weapons heat multiplied by 4 also but heatsinks only cooled down their actual amount. The heatsink capacity effect is much, much smaller. Maybe that is what should happen with MWO.

Solaris was also where TICS (Trigger Interlock Circuits - weapon groupings) came into being.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/'Mech_Duel_Rules

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The most important changes are as follows:

• A turn represents 2.5 seconds of real time (as opposed to 10 in the standard rules)
  
• The scale is four times smaller than the scale of the standard rules, changing the diameter the area a hex represents from 30 meters down to 7.5 meters and quadrupling weapon ranges accordingly.
  
• Weapons produce four times the heat of their standard values, creating heat spikes even where none could exist in the standard game the heat scale is adapted to this; heat sinks operate during each turn to match
  
• Most weapons require some time to recycle until they can be fired again, measured in rounds.
  
• Because of the limited time, a MechWarrior can perform only a certain number of actions per turn (e.g. walk, fire a single weapon, fire a Target Interlock Circuit, etc.)
  
• There are some advanced actions like evading, aiming or sprinting.
  
• A jump can last up to four turns and it is possible to change the course or to fire during a jump

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It would be better if MWO was compared to the Solaris Rules, where BT's 10sec combat round is divided into 4 2.5sec combat round.

S7 Heatscale max would be 120 instead of 30.
Heatsinks still dispersed 1 for SHS and 2 for DHS.
Weapon damage stayed the same
S7 Weapon Heat was multiplied by 4.
S7 Weapon ranges multiplied by 4 (hexes)
S7 All weapons had recycle times (iirc, PPC had to wait 3 rounds before it could be fired again, but would you want to fire it )

S7: 1PPC 10*4=40heat
S7: 3PPC = 120 heat (40*3) Imagine the rolls needed for shutdown, ammo cook offs, etc
S7: Awesome 28SHS -- 120 heat -28=92 heat at the end of the round the PPCs were fired
S7: 28 SHS: 4*28=112 heat removed every ten seconds
S7: 8 heat surplus every 10 seconds. Fire those 3 PPC again, you would be at 128 heat then end the 5th round at 100 heat.

The above is on an awesome standing still in a normal temp environment.

Basically, trying to match up the heat scale with BT will only work IF everyone weapon had a recycle time of 10 seconds. Then I am not asking for MWO to match Solaris scale but it gives a person a BETTER perspective than trying to make sense of it by trying to compare it to BT scales.

Even if PGI never does put a hard cap on Heat Scale, there needs to be more adverse effect thresholds than the max out one, there should be 2-3 thresholds where a mech would slow down and have a loss of agility, with possible ammo explosions occurring at only at max.



MWO does not need to stick to the rules verbatim but leaving out some critical ones allows loopholes to happen that then need to be countered by other means, while others should be changed due to the difference between a boardgame w/dice and a simulation/FPS (change IS XL engine=destruction to be similar to Clan XL loss since MWO does not have actual engine crits = negative heat effect nor engine destruction after 3 engine crits, whether it be from the left/right OR center torso)

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 October 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[Khobai]

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Nothing mentioned about increasing the capacity until shutdown at all. You're going to need to cite a source where you could generate 70 heat before shutting down. As I understand it, the rules have almost universally been that it went to 30, however there was another set of rules where it was able to go to 50 before shutting down but facing brutal heat penalties in doing so. But this had nothing to do with number of heat sinks.

Because heat dissipation occurred BEFORE checking for heat penalties.

So if you have 20 DHS and generate 50 heat, then dissipate 40 heat, youll be at 10 heat when you check for heat penalties.

But if you only have 10 DHS and generate the same 50 heat, and now only dissipate 20 heat, youll be at 30 heat when you check for heat penalties.

So having more DHS increased how much heat you could generate before suffering heat penalties.

Edited by Khobai, 20 October 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Hell no to 10v12. If you want the Clan feel. Get a private match together and play against stock IS mechs. But don't force the rest of us to play gimped.

[Livewyr]

Seems like most options are "Logan's idea or bust."

[Loganauer]

I get what you're saying Tarl Carbot, and I actually rather like that idea a lot.

Thank you for clarifying EmperorMyrf and Khobai. So, a stock warhawk with 20DHS could fire all 4 ERPPCs and generate 60 heat. 40 is instantly dissipated leaving behind 20 heat. By the time it's the warhawks turn again, all heat is dissipated. So a stock warhawk could alpha strike every turn and never overheat. That correct?

MechBattler, do you want to explain your idea of balancing Clans versus IS without completely destroying the premise of the clans superior tech that is the main driving point for the story wherein the clans are involved? The clans are supposed to have fewer pilots than the IS and superior tech, but also adhere to a strict warrior code. So how do you plan on balancing that?

Livewyr, I'm only proposing ideas I know of and I am not the unique author of all these ideas. If you want me to include your idea in this poll I will. I included Khobai's mentioning of convergence into the poll after he mentioned it. So yeah, no need to be snarky.

Edited by Loganauer, 22 October 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Loganauer]

So, what if (ER)PPCs, and Gauss Rifles just can't be fired within 0.5 seconds of each other, with exceptions for certain variants as a quirk (like the warhawk) so in effect, certain weapons share a global cooldown? Alpha Striking would be a way around this, but must be charged like the current gauss mechanic.

Edited by Loganauer, 22 October 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Livewyr]

Loganauer, on 22 October 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Livewyr, I'm only proposing ideas I know of and I am not the unique author of all these ideas. If you want me to include your idea in this poll I will. I included Khobai's mentioning of convergence into the poll after he mentioned it. So yeah, no need to be snarky.

But Sir!
Snark is my game. (One of few ways I still somewhat enjoy MWO...)

I'm commenting on the fact that you didn't have an "Other" option in your Poll...

[Loganauer]

There you go

[Livewyr]

Loganauer, on 22 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

There you go

Thank you, Good Sir!

I shall momentarily.