117 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 28 October 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

But everything else does.




Why higher? Why not 1-4% up and left now, down and right later, up and left after that, and ... you get the idea.

Why not just implement something modeled from well-understood concepts like CEP?

In one direction. Once the support structure of the gun starts to yield, its probably only going to yield in one direction. the point is, it wouldn't be a random spread.

[Mazzyplz]

idea sucks no ty.

you're just crippling bad mechs with this

[Gas Guzzler]

Praetor Knight, on 28 October 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

I want to explore spread mechanics using what already exists in MWO.

So with no target, all weapons will fire at separate random points, as currently happens when holding Jump Jets.

Get a Target under the crosshairs/reticles and the mech aims at the SSRM bones, using the existing calculations system and weighting.

The difference I'd like to test is being able to set a single primary weapon that is not affected and always follows the crosshairs / reticles.



So for example a player could designate a single C-LPL, ERPPC or UAC/5 that is not affected by the above mentioned system

And lore-wise, one of the main reasons most weapons weigh so damn much is because each uses an independent gimbal to aim the weapons, and things like Targeting Computers add more gizmos to improve their efficiency, reducing recoil and more precision and so on.

Battletech comes out in 2017, you can always play TT, or you can play some point and click RPG if you want a game like that.

[Spleenslitta]

I like the idea but a higher heat cap for SHS raises a weird question.
Imagine 2 boxes of chocolate icecream with crispy nuggets.

Yup. I made those letters big to get everyones attention. My apologies but this kinda important.
1 box is cooled with DHS and the other with SHS of the current models. A bunch of flamers are going full throttle right between the icecreamboxes.

The SHS cooled icecream will melt first of course, but the real question is which icecream melted at the highest temperature?
They both melted upon reaching the same temperature since they have the same melting point.
So why would SHS have a higher heat cap that keeps the engine from going into meltdown?

I like the basic idea that SHS gets a higher heat cap. It's something that can be surprisingly easy to balance and it's a very good balance idea from a gamers point of view.
There are plenty of other alternatives though. I've seen a lot of good suggestions in the feature suggestion part of the forums.

My own idea involved leting SHS mounted outside the engine to be linked to weapons. Naturally they would still weigh the same and take up crit slots.
The smaller SHS could easily be snuggled close to the hottest part of an ER PPC to keep it cool. But a bulky DHS would not be capable of it.
It's the same as a large coolingfan (DHS) on your computer blowing at your processor from a further distance versus a smaller coolingfan blowing at close range.
The smaller fan is superior at cooling this component which is what we have today for cooling our processor cores.

When an SHS is linked to a weapon it provides superior cooling to that specific weapon just like that small coolingfan.
The other SHS not linked to weapons behave as normal.

An Awesome with 3 PPC's would benefit more from SHS since it can link SHS outside the engine to PPC's.
But a Nova with 12 cERML would benefit more from DHS since it has so many weapons.

But i'm concerned this would make ER PPC boats far more common. It's an idea that needs to be worked on a lot.
Maybe it will never work.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 28 October 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 28 October 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Then why not just have independent gaussian distribution for each weapon?

We already said that in battletech each weapon rolls to hit individually and that firing multiple weapons has no effect on the accuracy of the rolls.

So why not just give each weapon a chance to be a few pixels off regardless of whether its fired singly or grouped with other weapons?

Thats more in line with battletech.

That's fine by me.

[Mystere]

ArchSight, on 28 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Convergence makes the net code suck. That's why PGI dropped the concept. Convergence will never work. Except that fact already. A cone of fire is the same thing.

Why don't you all know that already?

Ahem! It was dynamic convergence that caused net code issues. Zero/fixed convergence is a different animal altogether.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

Please list a half dozen of those "other games" that provide each player with as many as 12 weapons to fire as they see fit? Please.

Demanding an impossible standard for truth does not invalidate what is. All it does is serve to show you will not believe anything that does not confirm your own bias. For example, demanding 100 studies to prove a scientific principle is fact while only 50 have been run in history and agree with the principle does not make it untrue. Cone of Fire is not dependent on 'weapon types' from multiple sources or one source.

So let's not pretend this is a valid argument against.

kapusta11, on 28 October 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

So why don't you make your own game, mighty game designers?

Because the Hemingway logical fallacy (you must live/experience/accomplish something to write about it) is invalid. You cannot demand valid criticism you disagree with be silenced because we are all not designing our own games. Even you, I doubt, who support the fecalfest we currently have in this game, are a game designer and by the same logic you would not be permitted to comment in its defense either if held to the same standard.

[Kjudoon]

TheCharlatan, on 28 October 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

It was just an example. What i mean is that it won't necessarily work as you and others imagine it.

Just about nothing in this game has. So this is not a valid argument to not do it.

[Mystere]

Bush Hopper, on 28 October 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

@Mystere: That, however, makes weapons which focus damage (PPC, AC/20s etc) on one location so valuable and feared. In TT no one in their right mind let an AC/20 equipped mech get near their mech.
In MWO the AC/20 has not nearly that *oh shiiiiiit* feeling like in the TT

As someone who prefers lights above all else, I do have those moments, especially when facing an AC/40. Ouch!

[Zordicron]

So, this thread turned into a whole bunch of crap about convergence. I mean, I guess, but I sure didn't make this thread for that. I have never heard, even one time, PGI mention they might look at convergence, ever, ever again. So, i didn't bring that up. Sure it would stop the huge alphas from drilling holes in mechs. but PGi has basically written that idea off, forever.

Moving on,

"PPC/gauss will return"
KK, I played in that era. It hurt to get hit by that. but you know, poptart era alphas were hot, and ran between 25 and 35 points of damage. We are seeing stuff double that now, on a regular basis, made of weapons with either instant hit(no travel time) or nearly so(goosewaffles). Twin gauss worries you? 30 tons of weapons to do 30 dmg before ammo is considered is going to be "OP PGIPLZ NERF"? OK, even if it does somehow turn out to be OMG, they can add some cooldown(like MW4) and now DPS weapons are a counter. But thats a minor issue in the end really.

Light mechs: yeah, certain 8SPL loadouts might have a hard time playing ninja backstab now. They might even need to split the weapons into 2 or even 3 triggers and space the fire out. The loadout, will work fine. The damage, probably will be delivered at a similar pace in the end. It just wont be, ALL AT ONCE TO ONE SPOT. However, it still could be to one spot, IF the player has the skill to land 2 or 3 shots in one spot. Skill ceiling raised. As for like, 4 ML Jenner or something, again, it will just require more trigger pulls.

People need to look at the flip side with lights too, when you are fighting in a light, everyone and their brother can damn near instantly leg you with a laser alpha right now. If you are now unable to fire an alpha, niether can they!

And that is really the bottom line of this- the alpha levels will be reduced, but firepower as a whole, will still be there, just not as alphastrikes all the time.

Lasers are light, no ammo, and are literally point and click. Lasers have enough advantages over heavy, projectile/ammo based weapons that require lead time etc. Allowing them to be the most effiecient way of delivering damage tonnage wise while simultaneously being the easiest weapon in the game to use is just... bad.

Creating a system where players need to break up the trigger groups and fire less weapons, more often to achieve the damage output creates the actual fix- the "shots" will, on average, spread dmg about thus making TTK increase, and reducing the number of mechs being KO'd with 80% armor left on them. AT THE SAME TIME, skilled players will be able to shine, because they will be able to land the shots on the same target/location.

Average player sees TTK go up, survives longer for more fun, gets to shoot more weapon groups more often. Elite player will shoot more weapon groups more often, and will be able to really stand out as skilled by showing their ability to aim consistently.

But, like I said in OP, this really is all just theory until it gets put onto test so we can see how some different numbers for this would actually shake out. A theory is just a theory until it proven one way or another, and talking about what if's/and then's/but then's on the forums isn't going to prove it. Play testing actual application of a heat scale/heat sink change in game WILL prove it.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Eldagore, on 27 October 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

The cap needs to be cut, and dissipation increased to allow sustained weapons fire. 50% is a rough start for the cap,

All this would do is gimp assaults even further.

You already have to pray that your massive alphas kill it on the 2nd or 3rd shot.... (and even then they just laugh the damage off regularly)

As long as every mech can pack the ability to effortlessly tear an assault apart.... the idea of "balance" is already out the window.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 28 October 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[Fire for Effect]

Eldagore, on 27 October 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

So, Russ talked some about giant alphas not being ideal, to put it briefly.

Here is what and how to put up a public test server test to try a significant change to heatscale(Russ/Paul plz read)

Two parts to this, and both are important and hinge on the other.

Item one: The actual cap, and dissipation.

The cap needs to be cut, and dissipation increased to allow sustained weapons fire. 50% is a rough start for the cap, however I did read one comment saying a lot of alphas don;t hit 50% now. If the item 2 doesnt take care of that, then the baseline cap might need to go down further. Only testing could tell!

So, as a start, 50% cap, double dissipation. Possibly lower cap and even more dissipation, based on......


Item two: heatsink changes.

Single heatsinks: obviously, standard dissipation. Single heat sinks allow the cap to be increased.

Double heatsinks: Double heatsinks changed to tru-dub. Additionally, DHS will no longer raise the heat cap.
Now we have a choice, a true choice: raise your heat cap with SHS, but get less dissipation benefit, OR get no cap increase but get much more dissipation benefit from DHS.


Changing how heat sinks affect the cap is crucial, to keep the scale under control for balance. if players can simply mount DHS, they will adjust the alphas so that they can stay under the cap, and will gain sustainability for those alphas through dissipation. by eliminating DHS cap increases, we put a ceiling on the alphas that players can not bypass without losing the dissipation bonus from DHS.

Final numbers would need a shake out on PTS. Which of course is the point of PTS. Heck, even if it all fails utterly, at least we will know.

combined:

no


also not a solution, Solution is actually simple:

PPC cannot be combined with anything else; Gauss cannot be combined with anything else.
half the dmg and heat of all IS ballistics and double the rate of fire and ammo per ton.
actually since the gauss is one of the worst offenders half damage and double rate of fire and ammo per ton too. get rid of that absurd loading mechanism too if you are at it.

Lasers are DOTs and as such not a problem since you can twist and move. Since Lasers are already massively discrimited in this game and are the only weapons that are really limited by heat no change is actually necessary.

If you stand still and fail to twist against laser fire, your own fault that you die with only a CT burned through (unless you drive a PGI fail designed mech, hello new jenner hit boxes... then you had really bad luck in buying a lemon)


and I cite Kjodoons Sig:

Kjudoon, on 27 October 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

"and concerning Neccessary changes to MWO include PvE and:
3 Rearm and Repair with battlefield salvage and a dynamic economy
2 CW full scale logistics, units as in-game assets and community moderation
1 Cone of fire or dynamic convergence for all DF weapons"

3) we had it during closed beta was a complete failure
2) unlikely that it will work something like multiplayer battletech 3025 would be more likely to be successful.
1) nope convergence does not work since that would require miracle netcode that PGI and probably noone can provide. would only work if hit detection is being calculated on your PC. Since they have decided to make everything on the server its unlikely to work. COF in a halfway skillbased game, is a big nono many old timer die hard fans (you know the guys who pay for this fun) would simply say good bye and go soemwhere else. Neither the BT nor the MW fraction would ever accept this.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

3) we had it during closed beta was a complete failure
2) unlikely that it will work something like multiplayer battletech 3025 would be more likely to be successful.
1) nope convergence does not work since that would require miracle netcode that PGI and probably noone can provide. would only work if hit detection is being calculated on your PC. Since they have decided to make everything on the server its unlikely to work. COF in a halfway skillbased game, is a big nono many old timer die hard fans (you know the guys who pay for this fun) would simply say good bye and go soemwhere else. Neither the BT nor the MW fraction would ever accept this.

3- Complete failure? Not from what I heard. Also, you had it implemented by someone who understands nothing about economics, sociological motivations or understanding of his audience. Without a functioning and dynamic economy, R&R is going to seem worthless to those who play carelessly. Without salvage, you drift a long way from lore. Without scarcity why are we even calling this a Battletech game? We should be able to sell our equipment off, have limited amount of parts available "new" and the rest have to be bought from other players or units. THAT was a reality of the game. But the esport filth got their way. May as well rename the whole thing "Solaris" because that's what this is. Even in so-called 'community warfare'. It's no more a warfare simulator than an NFL game is.

2- And if not implemented, Battletech from HBS will destroy this game. CW is braindead and on life support. Without these changes it will remain dead till these fixes are implemented. I suspect PGI did not realize that function CW required them to create a second game along the path they're blue skying with 'career mode' for it to be functional. And only 2 years later than promised if it ever happens. Most of the players I know when talking about CW wanted "Master of Orion a la Battletech" with their in mech experience. Not Mech of Doody.

1- This is also your opinion. I find it silly to think that a CoF mechanic of some sort can't work on serverside games.

Of course, since PC game audiences are majority simulator and strategy game players, not like on consoles where twitchy FPS is king, encouraging the CoD players by going more simulator to leave and encourage PC centric gamers to return to a slower paced thinking game would be a long term win for a short term loss. Seems to me that there has been a silent exodus already of all those people sold 2 years ago on a "thinking-man's shooter" which this game has devolved from have already left, and a few bittervets like me left.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 October 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Battletech comes out in 2017, you can always play TT, or you can play some point and click RPG if you want a game like that.

o.0

[1Grimbane]

Stop messing with the alpha's already, get better at not getting hit..... good grief i hardly ever at all take a full alpha on any part of me unless i'm just standing there with my thumb up my butt...... on the flip side i alpha like a boss with my dires so leave it alone


p.s. i want a shirt that says Alpha Like a Boss on it

Edited by 1Grimbane, 28 October 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

JigglyMoobs, on 28 October 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

it will be a lot of fun:

http://www.twitch.tv/ngngtv/c/4637214

except people on the receiving end of this will grow tired of being on the receiving end of this, and we'll have a whole new round of complaints.

I see, so your new metabis the loyalty cent with radar derp.

and would you also like to see a lower server population longer queue times and more skill mismatch? because I think the player base is too strong right now, needs nerf. this should do that nicely.

You know there was a PTS available for Testing? Curious and looking forward to Phase 3 Re-balance.

The Infotech is promising, albeit it was presented being too rough around the edges.

And from Phase 2, the main thing that I would have preferred seeing was being able to test more extreme values on Heat Sinks.

The iteration we saw was very small in what was used in the PTS session for Heat Sinks, and I've read that many who actually tried the second Phase, liked the flow of combat, lacking most (or almost all) quirks on mechs. But I also know that a few mechs will still benefit from some quirkening.

[Weeny Machine]

1Grimbane, on 28 October 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

Stop messing with the alpha's already, get better at not getting hit.....

That is the point of laser alphas. You WILL get hit. The only questions are for how much and on which part(s) of the mech

[Zordicron]

1Grimbane, on 28 October 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

Stop messing with the alpha's already, get better at not getting hit..... good grief i hardly ever at all take a full alpha on any part of me unless i'm just standing there with my thumb up my butt...... on the flip side i alpha like a boss with my dires so leave it alone


p.s. i want a shirt that says Alpha Like a Boss on it

A dwf pilot that doesn't want to lose his instagib? Who'da thunk it.