30 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Void Angel, on 30 October 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I wholeheartedly agree - read through the guides in my signature. Sadly, this ignorance is quite prevalent - particularly during events like the one currently ongoing.

Part is the learning curve.

I mean, first 6 months of boxing/kickboxing, MOST new fighters will drop their hands during a match despite all the training and reinforcement to keep the hands up.

And this gets punished by eating a punch to the face...which STILL doesnt rectify the problem.

Fighters get too worked up or too tired and...hands drop when its most vital that they shouldnt.

Takes a while to learn to stay calm and be aware during stress. Same as in MWO...but no punch to the face.

[Void Angel]

You get lasers to the face, though - and the way you get lasers to the face unfortunately pushes people into a too-defensive mindset.

[oldradagast]

Kjudoon, on 28 October 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

The esport-competition meta is all about using all the exploits for victory. That means focusing on broken hitboxes, overquirking, ecm and hardpoint heavy cheese. Anything that can deliver the highest DPM with the best armor, speed and/or mobility to the fight.

Yep. Winning is all that matters, nobody else should be having fun but "winners," and using meta-crutches and exploits that anyone can do (if they are boring enough) is "skill." E-sports defined in a nutshell.

[InspectorG]

Nightshade24, on 30 October 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

I can tell you why the Wolfhound isn't considered meta. But many people here can tell you a bit why: So instead I will tell you what the meta is.

it is a social competetive construct built up on 1(or more) peoples opinions on the mech and gameplay,

Ugh...have to disagree.
Meta is mathematics. Efficient Min/Maxing to the most effective playstyle that involves the biggest pay-out with the minimal weakness that applies to the most general scenario.

Meta in MWO is: Damage. Kill enemy mechs, win match...unless your team messed up Conquest or CW.

Do the most EFFICIENT damage fast as possible while minimizing exposure to return fire.
EFFICIENT as in the LEAST needed to kill an enemy mech.

This is why Group Drops/CW are different from Pugs.
Groups not only use efficiency on an individual mech basis but also coordinate fire removing the most dangerous enemy first(or as available)

Numbers(focused fire)+ EFFICIENT damage(though past a certain threshold pure damage will work, as in a Dire)+ Initiative(Flanking, hitting hardest-first, getting better position) + minimal damage recieved = Win in MWO aka Meta strategy.

Now there are different INTERPRETATIONS on how to meet that meta. Skill/ play style/ niche roles/ etc etc etc...
This where the rock-scissor-paper comes in but ti will al be centered around doing efficient damage before the enemy can do it to you.

[mad kat]

Kjudoon, on 28 October 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

It's not a broken mech like the Firecheater or Archic Cheater? That's where my money lies.

Currently you see a little variety in a mech if it's overquirked or has ECM like the Ravens. But how often do you see an ECM Commando anymore? Almost never. Even with beneficial hitboxes and size, it's too light, especially without ecm. Lolcusts? unless someone's grinding them up or has a Pirates bane, generally you won't see them either save at low Tiers or as a joke.

Have to disagree there, i still use my Comando 2D streakmando and do well in it and even my Death's knell from time to time and my lolcusts are actually the most fun mechs in game the 6ML 1E is most certainly not underpowered or obsolete. In good hands it's very much a danger especially to assualts and whales and the PB with 2xMPL and 2xSPL is surprisingly good.

When i used to play CW a Locust was always in my drop deck.

[The Basilisk]

There are 2 Fields where the Wolfhound has different competitors.

-- Solo and Group PuG:

Competitors as said: Arctic Cheater ( yea I know not so cheating anymore ), Firestarter, Jenner, Raven, Spider, Panther, Urbanmech, Adder, Kitfox.

And I'm not sure if I should mention Spider, Raven, Adder and Kitfox as competitors sice they got deviating mission profiles.
Wolfhound is primarily a smal arms carrier while Raven and Kitfox are primarily EWF Mechs an often used as light long range support units.
Spider is also more of a classic scout and electronics carrier and Adder a light artillery / firesupport platform. So ... they should not be real competitors.

So it boils down to what you meet manno a manno: ACH, Firestarter, Jenner, Panther ( Wolfhounds Kurita antagonist wich should be conquered by its design ), Urbanmech.

- ACH has clantech, more weapons and still questionable hitboxes, in addition to ECM so the Wolfi isn't realy a match for it...or it shouldn't be.

- Firestarter has more hardpoints ( 7-8 vs 5-6 ), jumpjets, but is not quite as nimble ( TTurn and Arms ) as the Wolfi and is slightly larger. So there ARE ups and downs even if the the ups may reign supreme. ( personaly I feel the firestarter to a lot more squishy than the Wolfi )

- The Jenner is jumpcapable and has an equal number of hardpoints vs the Wolfi. Its Weapons are either on cockpit level or above.
The SRMs of the Jenner can deliver more frontload dmg in theory but are more prone to missing the target entirely or distributing the dmg more than lasers.
In addition the jenner is quite prone to death by CT loss.
So its a lot more squishy than the Wolfhound.
Less exposal due to hardpoint location vs more squishyness.

- The Panther is larger, slower and carrys fewer weapons while it is jumpcapable. In addition the Panther tends heavylie to be a oneside wonder with its right arm blown of its next to neutered.
On the battlefield I felt the panther to be nothing more than easy pray when sitting in my Wolfi.
It may be personal but there it is.

- The Urbanmech....well. While I think the Urbie may be a nice waldo unit for rearguard duty for assault mechs and for tracking fast moving targets it is the natural pray for Wolfhounds.

So I would say the Wolfi is quite on pair with the Jenner but weaker than Firestarter or ACH.

-- Community Warfare:
Since its largely IS vs Clan the ACH and other Clanmechs are enemys on the battlefield but not competitors that you could choose over the Wolfhound.
So its FS9, JR7, PNT, RVN, SDR or the Urbie.
I think we can discard both the Panter and the Urbie since they both got crippling downsides versus the Wolfhound. The Raven got ECM, the Jenner better hardpointplacing and more squishyness, the Spider got ECM but only half the firepower of the Wolfhound and the Firestarter has Jumpjets and more weapons. ( and is hotter as well as a bit more squishy )

So....no I don't understand why the Wolfhound is so underrated. It has a bit lower firepower and manoeverability than the Firestarter but it has more stayingpower and runs cooler.
I would put it on rank 2 of the IS mechs on pair with the Jenner.

[The Basilisk]

InspectorG, on 11 November 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

Ugh...have to disagree.
Meta is mathematics. Efficient Min/Maxing to the most effective playstyle that involves the biggest pay-out with the minimal weakness that applies to the most general scenario.

Meta in MWO is: Damage. Kill enemy mechs, win match...unless your team messed up Conquest or CW.

Do the most EFFICIENT damage fast as possible while minimizing exposure to return fire.
EFFICIENT as in the LEAST needed to kill an enemy mech.

This is why Group Drops/CW are different from Pugs.
Groups not only use efficiency on an individual mech basis but also coordinate fire removing the most dangerous enemy first(or as available)

Numbers(focused fire)+ EFFICIENT damage(though past a certain threshold pure damage will work, as in a Dire)+ Initiative(Flanking, hitting hardest-first, getting better position) + minimal damage recieved = Win in MWO aka Meta strategy.

Now there are different INTERPRETATIONS on how to meet that meta. Skill/ play style/ niche roles/ etc etc etc...
This where the rock-scissor-paper comes in but ti will al be centered around doing efficient damage before the enemy can do it to you.

Yea meta is mathematics.
But like every sane or....lets say honest mathguy you should also mention your formulas dearly depend on a certain setting.
And a lot of this setting in MWO meta ( besides next to instantanious frontload dmg at large ranges ) is quite circumstantial and does depend on itself.
So you get the folowing effect: this mech is meta because meta is meta and this mech can do this meta exceptionaly good.
So....meta is circumstantial and depends more on taste, broadly used taktics and the state of game.
If an other taktic gets used more often by reasons unknown or other weapons just get used more often than your favorized meta you will just suck.

Exsample: IS pure longrange ballistics setup in CW. After three matches the enemy claners just packed and disconnected when seeing us. Smal calliber ballistics are completely against meta but if used concentrated in large numbers you just cant use your lasers cause your dps is lower and you will distribute your dmg more due to the impact shake.

There are a lot of circumstances where meta mechs just do not function.
F.E. a certain combination of nonmeta mechs just put you in a situation where you cant act effectively.

The problem is most ppl do not know how to neuter easymode onebutton builds.
( and that is the REAL meta )

An other rarely mentioned point is that most dedicated "metaplayers" and "metaworshiper" just do one thing:
They learn and play in a structured way with a certain goal.
So an important reason for the success of meta mechs is that ( forget the question if meta is realy the supperior way )
their players have a certain dedication besides just running around and having fun.
They want to win in a certain way and employ structured taktics to do so.

I won't deny that there are a lot of mechs heavylie impared by the "PGI lack^TM" of real arm control ( in TT a humanoid mech could use its armrange far more effectively and fire in whide sidearcs as well as at elevated targets ) or the vanishing of convergence ( a real point for the Wolfhound if you realize how concentrated his torsolasers are set ) or several other circumstantiual or state of the game faktors that just make some mechs more desireable than others.

But please do not say meta has something to do with efficiency, objectivity or real math.

Meta is just this: Flavor of the week

[InspectorG]

The Basilisk, on 12 November 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

Yea meta is mathematics.
But like every sane or....lets say honest mathguy you should also mention your formulas dearly depend on a certain setting.
And a lot of this setting in MWO meta ( besides next to instantanious frontload dmg at large ranges ) is quite circumstantial and does depend on itself.

But please do not say meta has something to do with efficiency, objectivity or real math.

Meta is just this: Flavor of the week

Yeah, many circumstances in MWO but i stated something about general scenarios.

You are conflating a specific circumstance with a general trend.

You are essentially arguing having suited Ace/King in Holdem is no different that starting with 2/7 offsuit.
You may lose that hand with the A/K but IN GENERAL it has more value and will winmore hands over time.

Your CW example of low caliber IS ACs only supports my premise: You COORDINATED mass CONCENTRATED FIREPOWER and hit at range(INITIATIVE)
The fact the the Enemy Command couldnt adapt is less about meta more about decision making.

If its all just FLAVOUR OF THE WEAK, Then go win CW with an All Flamer team.

Meta is just Flavor and NOT Math, right???

Go Make all an Flamer Team work.

See, you can sometimes counter a general meta with a niche meta. But that doesnt mean the niche meta will work well in general scenarios.

Case in point:

Get a 12 man of newbs, give them all meta Timby /SCRO/ AC. Give them a decent but average leader to coordinate their fire.

Put them vs

A 12 man of newbs, give them all different non-meta/RANDOM builds and disable their VOIP and dont let them chat. No leader.

Want to place a bet on which team will win most often on any given map/mode???

Still want to claim there is no math??? No efficiency?

[The Basilisk]

Uh...I said meta ( as concept of generaly accepted set of favorable tactics and tools to make those tactics work ) is also a matter of taste AND state of the game.

-- Communication has nothing to do with math.
-- Gauss / Laser Vomit meta is a matter of hardpoints ( state of the game ) and modules used ( taste --> cause singleminded laser vomit builds can be coordinated effectively without much preparation, so lazyness would be a better word to describe it) also no math involved.

-- A set of maximum achivable dps per tonnage and space used in relation to stayingpower due to ammunition, heat and durability equation based on exposed armor while using your main weapons.....Now THAT would be math.
And it would be highly circumstantial cause it would depend on state of the game, map, and mechpreference of the player. So your math and meta would never be "under general circumstances" and seldomly a generaly valid "effective".

You cant just take core elements of gameplay away and say "hey bro talk about effectiveness".
If you say general, show me your general circumstances where meta is always viable.
I realy think you are mixing up general with spetial standart deviation.

[Tahribator]

Because people love to berate things they have no understanding or experience of. Personally I think the Wolfhound is one of the top-dogs of IS lights, I'd even put it above the Firestarter and very close to the Arctic Cheetah in terms of effectiveness (but not survivability). After the rebalance I reckon it'll even eclipse the ACH and the FS.

However because the Wolfhound currently lacks ridiculous weapon quirks and apparently it didn't work when some vocal people initially tried them (it requires you to adjust to its style), it was quickly classified as a **** tier 'Mech. In addition to that most people think the tier lists some people make online are like messages from god and here we are with its reputation.

Edited by Tahribator, 13 November 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[jarhu]

Duh, it seems there is a misconception about what meta is about. It's definitely not about mathematics but it definitely can be part of the thought process and math is a tool used in logical thinking. Metagaming itself is about out of the box thinking and strategies that majority of certain people think are dominant.

So, you take bits and pieces of the knowledge given (in-game and IRL) and use your mind to form a combination of best possible strategies and tactics used in a given situation.