246 replies to this topic

[PholkLorr]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 October 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

that's grand... "tolerance" goes both ways. The OP is pretty against non meta tryhards doing what they want to do.

Just a thought.

Comprehension fail again. OP is not against meta tryhards doing what they want to do. In fact, i said that people should use whatever build is fun to them. Missed that? Whatever build/playstyle is fun to them. That includes sub optimal builds.

OP is against non meta CRYhards crying that superior players taking a superior build kicked their ass. Read that as a whole sentence. Not "OP is against non meta cryhards" PERIOD. It's a full sentence.

OP is not against balance. OP is for balance. I cried hard too when clans came out, because clan tech was so blatantly OP *and all that OP stuff was hidden behind a paywall*. When the OP mechs were released for cbills though i promptly bought them. I found it ridiculous that Russ can be "pleased" with clan-IS balance after the 3rd nerf to clans which saw their win rate drop from 90% to 70+% and finally to 63%. Yeah, he was pleased with a 63% clan-is win rate, which is to say, IS will lose almost 2 out of every 3 games and that is a pleasing result. Kind of alarming coming from a developer. And telling of their considerations to balance.

However, knowing the state of balance that this game is in (ie. quite bad), i choose to take what is best and beat you with it. I will not handicap myself. I won't bring a knife to a gunfight and cry foul when others destroy me. Noone is responsible for my death but myself. Knowing full well that others are packing AK47s and RPGs and deciding to bring a knife is just plain silly. Crying about it after doing something silly is even more lolable.

That said, even if this game was PERFECTLY balanced (and no game will ever be, let alone THIS game), you can be sure that the low skilled players are still going to be food for the better players, who are in turn, food for the best players. Somebody's got to sit on the top of the food chain. Guess what, it's not going to be the cryhards.

[Crosell]

Shrugs. Meta is never too fun for me. Some like it and thats ok. Being peek competitve can be a drive. In games likr this i like variance creativity. Hearthstone is covered with meta net decks and thats ok for me its not as fun. I like the unexpected and making engagements different. My favorite build is a kit fox 4 mg ppc 3 ams ecm. Competitve god no fun as hell and a decent support mech yes. Ill run it over my stormcrow any day. Theres no right or wrong way to play. Some people just different things.

[MischiefSC]

TheOtherDino, on 31 October 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

And some (many) will withdraw. It's okay if that's what you want. If not, then ya gotta change something about the game. Right now, PGI isn't changing things quickly enough, so it's on the players to do so. Can't eat your cake and have it, too.

If you want to treat a game as some real life competition with significant meaning, then by all means, go for it. Just don't expect everyone to ride along. When there aren't enough players to keep the game running, you'll have your final victory, I guess.

It's a PvP game. A lot of people play PvP games actually. Personally I lean more toward PvE, but for a PvP environment this is a pretty gentle one. The reason there are not more people here is the balance is terrible and the developers fix balance issues like the Army decides what new handgun to purchase.

Everyone competes all the time in this game, every single match. Against the other team and against their own team. You check the end of round score and see where you fit in. That's normal, natural, human. It's part of how/why we live in groups and not everyone alone in the wilderness. Competition is fun. That's why we like winning. Everyone does.

The point is still the same though - it's alright to not push 110% all the time or go 'full tryhard'. I don't. Play how you want, have fun. That's great, I'm all for it. If someone else is playing full tryhard though they are not doing anything wrong or ruining the game or doing it to make things less fun for you (or anyone else). They are playing to have fun, they're just of a mind to put more effort into it than others.

I'm all for people playing how they want, just realize that's your choice and don't blame others for playing harder or investing the energy to get better. Say good on them, share notes on how you want PGI to fix the broken balance in the game so you all have more fun. Someone else putting in more effort or focusing on winning doesn't 'ruin the game' for anyone else. It never has, never will. That's just an excuse. A bad one. If that's not your excuse then awesome - we agree. For a bunch of people on the forum though it is.

[Bishop Steiner]

buried in a rant about the sins and shortcomings of those who aren't meta tryhards.

the one sort of gives lie to the other.

It's rather like expecting people to believe Donald Trump is OK with Mexicans in the middle of one of his rants about all the rapists and murderers mexico is supposedly "sending" across the border.

People who point out the broken nature of the Meta are bads ruining the game unless they are tier 1 ubercomps with 5 wins in MLMW.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 October 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[LordBraxton]

this thread is worse than Paul

[nehebkau]

With 91% of my games in lights, I am quite happy to not be playing meta and quite satisfied with my ranking as a result. You either choose meta, both mech and tactics wise or you choose to have fun in your own way and accept the consequences.

[CainenEX]

Is the OP upset at some of the threads like "balance is broken, We need 12vs10 IS vs Clan"? I could understand if he is in that regard... Some of the threads have been quite illogical. Calmly explaining to these people why certain things won't work usually result in them retorting with nonconstructive nonsense. On that note I can understand the OP.

As for the subject of meta i shall paraphrase Kjudoon here:

Kjudoon, on 29 October 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

The meta will always exist. It is the most efficient way to play a game. Every game and aspect of life has this "meta" to it.

The problem is when the game is so flawed and easily abused that you start destroying the game with it's own rules. The flaws become the meta, and people who don't then use the 'cheat code' of the flawed meta are abused by those who do.

But your tier is irrelevant.

Indeed it is the stagnation of a meta and the inability to form counter play that harms a game.
But the game is certainly reaching a much more health state, at least with the PST changes happening. While it may be frustrating to have to fight crazy cookie cutter builds over and over I think there are still a good variety of viable mechs and tactics. To me it's more about "what" you do with you mech and how you react to other mechs on the field (both friendly and enemy).

I think you need to embrace the idea of a meta. I'm not saying go play your meta-wolf 24/7. But be aware what others are bringing to the table. Learn from them so that you can make and modify your own builds. Deploy your "counter-meta" if you will.

Most importantly, I think I've always remembered this from Pokemon GSC (gold, silver, crystal). Towards the end of the game you take on the elite four. When you beat it's last member; Karen she goes on to say this:

Quote

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites."

It made an impact on me as a player. This actually applies to plenty of other aspects but it also applies to MWO.
You need to play with your favorite builds and work within the limitations. These are not weaknesses. They are your strengths. With the right mind any challenge can indeed be overcome, but it takes work.

[Livaria]

Personally, If I were considered to be the best at something that I absolutely enjoy; I would feel honored, but I would also feel... empty as well. I would be taking time to ask myself; there has got to be more that I can learn, right?

That would be the time I would be looking forward for someone to defeat me. It's not success that drives me, but learning new things, and I don't nearly learn as many if things if I play in the same manner that everyone else is. I'm not sure if I ever want to be the best at something.

Edited by Livaria, 31 October 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[Arctourus]

location: the best player....

HAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAA!

[MechWarrior5152251]

If you are not in a team playing chickenshit usually gets you a higher score. Let others take all the risks to maximize your own score. Of course if everyone is chickenshit on your team you will lose.

[Sethliopod]

Reading general forum posts ruin the game for me, better than almost any other feature.

But I get cranky when I can't say 'meta', like, three times in a conversation. So, general forums it is.

[Light-Speed]

1. The hell did you expect to get when you made this post? What was your desired results? Everyone should drop their current builds and go meta?

2. There is a line between non-Meta builds that will never work and non-Meta builds that will work. Meta builds started off as non-Meta as well. Some non-meta builds that looks like they won't work at the first glance just need the R & D and personal skill development to get there. Or become as easy and less mentally taxing as generic laser-vomit. Whichever is faster.

3. Guess what. Some others understand the feeling of being proud when their unique self-created build wrecks face.

4. Why do you try to impose your subjective views on others? One of the major selling points of this game is this: Customization-slash-Freedom.

5. I am not against you as a person. But trying to associate yourself with logic while making this thread.

*facepalm*

6. Thus: I disagree with your low tolerance towards people who enjoy the customization half of this game. If you are simply looking for competition in terms of straight out fighting, why haven't you moved on to, say, Call of Duty? Are you just sticking around so you can take joy from slaughter sub-optimals and people not lucky or wealthy enough to have good fps with Meta? Why didn't you simply post in the thread you thought was stupid so your audience includes the right people?

edit: forums buggy as hell

Edited by Nightingale27, 31 October 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[M3 SABLE]

so people hate whiners who cause changes?

I wonder if people would've still played, if this was still a thing:

[MauttyKoray]

PholkLorr, on 29 October 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Weak, illogical players destroy their own game. Not the meta.

I would use harsher, simpler and more accurate terms to describe this group of players but i'm not sure if those are against the terms. Ever since i started playing this game, i have seen the same weak, self entitled players whining about how other people are better than them. I thought i'll post a riposte to their whining.

Every one of us have the same options to play whatever you think is the best. Why some people deliberately choose to play a bad build or playstyle and then whine that it is bad is beyond me.

It's like in World of warcraft, knowing that a build is bad and deliberately choosing that build. Or knowing that a 200 dps weapon is inferior to a 400 dps weapon and picking the 200 dps weapon because it's shinier. Or in real life, you need to destroy a wall and were given the option of choosing a sledgehammer or a penknife and choosing the penknife, then whining that the penknife isn't getting the job done as well as your friend who took the sledgehammer.

As to the comment from low skilled players saying that "meta tryhards" are not having fun, i have this to say:

Fun is subjective. Playing sub optimal builds is fun to you. Not so to me. I like playing optimal builds. I like steamrolling my enemies. And so far, i'm having a lot of fun doing just that.

Besides, if you're having so much fun using crappy builds, why are you crying and whining on the forums about how "meta tryhards" are steamrolling you? Or are you afraid that if you actually played the "meta" AND still played crappily, you wouldn't have an excuse to protect your already bruised ego? Your ego would be utterly destroyed beyond recognition.

When you say that you hate meta and that the current meta is destroying the game, what you're essentially saying is not so much that you hate meta. It's more of: I don't like the CURRENT meta and i want MY BUILD (which happens to be bad currently) to be the meta.

Guess what? If YOUR BUILD and playstyle became the new meta, I would take that build and steamroll you with it anyway.

The meta changes constantly. When it was poptarting, i used poptart builds and weapons and steamrolled with it. Now it's even easier, laser vomit. So i use laser vomit and steamroll with it. The meta changes and you must change along with it or be food for the steamrollers. This is the way of life.

Besides, even if you used the meta, you'll probably still be food. Given the same build/mech, some players are just flat out better than others. Given the same weapons, some soldiers are marksmen and some are cannon fodder. Given equal opportunities and equal tools, some people get farther ahead in life than others.

These are the hard truths of life.

META - Abuse of the strongest current methods in game to increase the chances of winning.

So no, it really isn't. You're first of all taking two factors into account.
1. Game Balance
and
2. Player Skill

In a perfectly balanced game, player skill would always be the deciding factor. However in MWO there still is an imbalance of game mechanics that allow the META to exist. The fact that the META changes when aspects of the game are rebalanced just shows that it exists. If you're a better player and take the same loadout as another, you would be expected to win, that's not the point. Its when Player A takes Build 1 and Player B take Build 2, assuming both players are evenly matched, one build always wins because it abuses the META.

Literally the only 'META' that should exist in MWO is called situational META, the best weapons or loadouts for the right circumstances. A full brawler mech for instance holds the META in close range, while a mechs with LRMs or long range weaponry like LLs, Gauss, and PPCs should be holding the long range META.

[Sylonce]

I tend to see meta as what people generally do in the interest of winning. Not all metas work, and sometimes, the craftier of players can see past a meta and still win anyways. I always hold greater respect for people who can still perform without conforming. In a game like this, these are the true pros. There are those who go on smurfy to pick the best builds, and there are those who understand the game mechanics enough to be efficient starting from scratch.

Meta does become an issue, however, if a game is inherently unbalanced, and the meta is a result of that umbalance. Even worst is when a meta is the result of an exploit. I have seen a little bit of both with this game, though to be frank, I haven't been paying too much attention to what people really complain about. Way too much internet drama .

[Random Carnage]

MauttyKoray, on 31 October 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

META - Abuse of the strongest current methods in game to increase the chances of winning.

Nearly. See the strike through and you're right.

[Mcgral18]

zagibu, on 30 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I remember it, laser meta started only when the clans were introduced and IS mechs got laser quirks. PPCs and ACs were nerfed long before that. So I don't think your premise is correct in this case.

Pretty sure it was the Whale that finally killed the PPCs; the nerf down from 1500M/s (ER)PPCs.
While significantly nerfed before that (largely OP, 2KM/s and 8&12 heat) that final speed nerf put them below the window where they could viably co-exist with GOOD hitscan weapons.

Then they also buffed the cLPL.

pwnface, on 30 October 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

If poptarting PPFLD and laser vomit alpha were on par with each other we'd have a pretty nice balance.

Buff SRMs to 2.5 and give Gauss scaling damage between 0-100/150m and we'd have a pretty darn good balance IMO.

LRMs... I have no idea what to do with LRMs to fix them, they are so brokenly crap I just don't even know what to say.

The Jesus Box is the biggest thing keeping LRMs worthless. The PTS2 brought some new information forward, to me.
The 'targetingfactor' variable. Presently, it's set to '0.25', while the PTS2 had it set to '1.0'

On the live server, a stripped mech (or one without radar altering items) has a 800M sensor distance. 800*0.25=200
Coincidently, the distance you can target an ECM mech while still not being inside the disrupting part of the Jesus Box.

PTS2 at 1, or 100%, meant there was no magical Jesus Field, and could freely target mechs.

Change that '0.25' to '0.5' and you can theoretically target mechs at 400M natively, or 600M with (B)AP and the sensor range module.
That makes a non-artemis and no TAG equipped LRM mech less useless as (aside from cover) he'll not be completely helpless.



Hurray .XML variable edits! If only I knew what most of them did...

[Clownwarlord]

Wow ... I answered this thread on page 4 with a pretty clear, concise, and accurate argument to original post in this debate but wow ... it is still going.

[KahnWongFuChung]

I hear you on the good game ideas Kang. I've seen really good threads ignored till they become buried.
Some players refuse to read beyond the thread title and just say what their opinion is or just vote against the suggestion.
Or they see the thread as a threat towards their way of playing the game so they sabotage the thread.
============================================================================================
I would assume Spleen that these forum Clowns and forum warriors with thousands of posts are probably PGI Devs-Staff or Your MWO high comp players that want MWO to stay the same or bury posts so the good ideas for MWO never came to light because they did not fit into there agendas. I doubt even 1% of the ideas were even seen by the DEVS since Closed Beta

Its to bad even if PGI would have used 10 of all those great ideas since Closed Beta MWO might have been Game Of The Years and had millions of players.

[CDLord HHGD]

I would like to point out, as another update, that despite my invitations across several threads; multiple times in those threads, that no "tryhard" has taken my invitation to "show me the light".

That speaks volumes to me.