93 replies to this topic

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

Good to know that the MechWarrior community got their WH40K knowledge in line, and Adridos you being a WH40K fan I guess makes up for you being a bloody cappie.

I know more about 40k than I know about anything else, even real life stuff.

[Sinitron]

In a merged universe, chances are the Zerg would come out ahead if they could assimilate everything else before the Borg reached a certain point. Beyond that point, the Borg would probably win in any head-on fight. I'm not too familiar with Star Trek lore, so I couldn't say who adapts faster - many of the Zerg's abilities in the games are also exaggerated for gameplay and balance reasons.

For those of you complaining that StarCraft has no strategy, stop playing Protoss and start using your heads - Zerg and especially Terran require a great deal more thinking about positioning, flanking and overall unit composition as well as superior unit control to meet their potential. It's a great game with some flaws that hopefully will be ironed out in the expansion packs as they alter, add and remove units. In addition, yes, you need to be able to interact with the game rapidly in other to respond to threats and achieve victory. This applies to pretty much every game but puzzlers and turn-based stuff, and is an incredibly invalid argument especially considering how MechWarrior games are similar in many ways as you have to manage weapon groups, heat and ammunition levels in addition to being a good shot and having overview of what is happening on the battlefield.

Also, as much as I like WH40K, the Dawn of War games weren't particularily good.

[Polymorphyne]

Yeah, Dawn of War violated the fluff pretty badly in the original, wasn't really true to 40k. Base building? Space Marine Tactical squads with 5 heavy weapons? Uggh.
Dawn of War 2 was slightly better, bringing the space marines close to the small force size/surgical strike MO of the marines, but was still a bit irky for me.

[Adridos]

Longsword, on 03 March 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Yeah, Dawn of War violated the fluff pretty badly in the original, wasn't really true to 40k. Base building? Space Marine Tactical squads with 5 heavy weapons? Uggh.

Dawn of War 2 was slightly better, bringing the space marines close to the small force size/surgical strike MO of the marines, but was still a bit irky for me.

I know it is not really canon heavy. Considering added Space Marine chapter, endless uses of exterminatus, which is considered absolutely last resort and was not even used against Horus, despite the things he did and how dangerous he was. And then they freely use it on the recruiting system of a Space Marine chapter, because there are some orcs, remnants of the Tyranid "invasion" and some bunch of other guys.

Also, I do not remember the name of that sergant in Retribution, but he would get shot in the head by the comisar first time he spoke against the captain, but in the game, he continued to argue with him and noone seemed to care.

But the games are very good and I enjoy them. Plus, Firestorm over Kronus makes it feel like a TT game.

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

For those of you complaining that StarCraft has no strategy, stop playing Protoss and start using your heads - Zerg and especially Terran require a great deal more thinking about positioning, flanking and overall unit composition as well as superior unit control to meet their potential.

I play Terrans.

I did not say Starcraft lacks tactics, I was reffering to the 2nd one. It is always MMM for Terrans, otherwise you get rolled over by both Zerg and Protoss. Zergs are by far the best on it. They can Z. rush, spam mutas, or spam infestors. Protoss use chargelots and high templars with some Collosi.

Well, that is what I saw in all the replay, competitions, etc. I have not played SC2 online, yet.

Edited by Adridos, 03 March 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Sinitron]

Adridos, on 03 March 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

I play Terrans.

I did not say Starcraft lacks tactics, I was reffering to the 2nd one. It is always MMM for Terrans, otherwise you get rolled over by both Zerg and Protoss. Zergs are by far the best on it. They can Z. rush, spam mutas, or spam infestors. Protoss use chargelots and high templars with some Collosi.

This is completely wrong. You do not have to go MMM as Terran, if anything Terran has the most options as to what they can do. Against Zerg, you can go with a Marine/Tank composition, Marauder/Hellion/Banshee, or even pure factory with Hellion/Tank/Thor. Against other Terrans, the norm is some sort of Tank/Viking play, but you could also be fancy and use a variant of the old iEchoic build which essentially boils down to Hellions and air units. Against Protoss, MMM with Ghosts and Vikings is the norm, but it is also possible to do a Thor/Banshee/Raven composition (using Ravens to spot observers, shooting them down with the Thors, and then hammering the ground army with Banshees) and I have been experimenting with Hellion/Tank against Protoss as well with Ghosts for EMP, Thors to use strike cannons and Vikings to deal with Colossi or air units. Generally, people will tell you it is not wise to attempt such 'meching' against Protoss, but depending on your own abilities, positioning and effective employment of strategies and tactics it is possible to get very far with such a composition, even in the diamond and master leagues.

Zerg and Protoss have plenty room for player quirks and experimentation too, though I will admit it does not match the flexibility of Terran.

Adridos, on 03 March 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Well, that is what I saw in all the replay, competitions, etc. I have not played SC2 online, yet.

The professional scene will always rely on proven strategies to reliably win rather than experimenting with units they aren't sure will work. They can spend countless hours practising the same thing over and over to maximize efficiency with that particular style of play - but it is not necessarily the only way to play, especially for casual players. I have a lot of friends in the master leagues and even some grandmasters, which all insisted that I go MMM against Protoss - but it just didn't feel right for me, personally. I was stuck smashing my head against a wall trying to do what was 'standard', but it wasn't working for me. When I switched to a more mechanized playstyle, I immediately picked up a lot of steam and started demolishing things that had given me headaches before, simply because I was better able to utilize my units effectively and the strategies I employed just came naturally to me.

You really need to play it for a while and get a good feel for the game. Dismissing it as a loony clickfest is stupid because it's just so wrong - StarCraft 2 is by far the best RTS available on the market currently despite some flaws and even though a lot of veterans seem to forget it, the original StarCraft had problems too which very solved by the Brood War expansion and innumerable patches.

Keep in mind a lot of people will dismiss MWO as well for not being a carbon-copy of the older games, not being able to pilot Nova Cats (curse those dread things) or because they just plain don't like the designs.

[GDL Rahsan]

Adridos the Sergeant you are talking about is sergeant Merrick, and he is a Catchan which explains the arguing, as why he wasn't executed, The commander of the Regiment Castro considered him a too good to be wasted with some pitty execution, while indeed most of the series didn't really relate to lore but there are some competent generals who usually let a good soliders argument slip if they can back it up with some action.

[Fresh Meat]

Borg, also my SC2 name is Locutus a battle cruiser has got nothing on a Borg cube.

"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."

Edited by Fresh_Meat, 03 March 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Adridos]

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

StarCraft 2 is by far the best RTS available on the market currently

No, it's not.

Telling this or that is the best is plain stupid.

Look at Shogun 2: Total War. What would a real strategist (real generals) tell you?
Or Anno 2070. 'Tis RTS, too. It is very good, why should it be under SC 2?

That's all.

[Sinitron]

Adridos, on 03 March 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

No, it's not.

Telling this or that is the best is plain stupid.

Look at Shogun 2: Total War. What would a real strategist (real generals) tell you?
Or Anno 2070. 'Tis RTS, too. It is very good, why should it be under SC 2?

That's all.

A Mercedes will always be superior to a Lada. That's not bigotry towards the Russians, it's just plain fact that nazi steel is stronger.

A real general would tell me it's cute, but there's no way the Japanese could have organized their forces from a birds-eye perspective. Shogun 2 is incredibly slow-paced and a lot of the time you sit around waiting for troops to move into position. I found it to be disappointing overall, for an RTS on a greater scale I would be more inclined to play Supreme Commander, though not the sequel which frankly just tries to be faster paced but ends up failing at it.

I should probably rephrase what I said; StarCraft 2 is the best *competitive* RTS out there. It's easy to jump into and follow, the matches are fast-paced and it requires you to think on the fly. It's not without flaws, but it's not as unfair, broken and mindless as some people make it out to be.

As far as Anno 2070 is concerned, all I heard was that Ubisoft had managed to come up with even more god-awful DRM to screw over legit customers, so I stayed away from it, and so should you. I can't comment on the game itself, but if the developers are so ferociously obsessed with making money that they make it a hassle to even play the game, they're generally not concerned with the quality of their game either. Worst of all is when they retain the DRM for Steam releases, which is already a form of copy protection.

[Adridos]

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

A Mercedes will always be superior to a Lada. That's not bigotry towards the Russians, it's just plain fact that nazi steel is stronger.

Yeah, but in this case, it is more like saying: "Lamborghini Murcielago is the best vehicle on Earth."

Oh, and this applies even to your *competitive* view.

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

A real general would tell me it's cute, but there's no way the Japanese could have organized their forces from a birds-eye perspective. Shogun 2 is incredibly slow-paced and a lot of the time you sit around waiting for troops to move into position. I found it to be disappointing overall, for an RTS on a greater scale.

Well, I haven't seen teleporting warriors, yet, so the fact they have to march/run somewhere on the battlefield is normal, but if you think so...

And the birds-eye perspective isn't real, but they could organize their troops in battle.
That's what drums, pipes, horns, etc. are for + it helps morale.

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I would be more inclined to play Supreme Commander, though not the sequel which frankly just tries to be faster paced but ends up failing at it.

This is what I agree on with you, 100%.

[SilentWolff]

We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us.

RESISITANCE IS FUTILE

[Stahlseele]

The Borg will Win.
Technology will prevail over Biology.

As for 'Nids
Has there ever been a canon Necron Versus Tyrannids?
No, so no reliable Data here. They can't eat Necrons though.
And Necrons are made for killing huge numbers of enemies.

Also, 'Nids winning against Borg? Pah, no way.
The ORKS canonically, fought a 'Nid Invasion to a stand still.
The ORKS Adapted fast enough TO THE 'NIDS to halt them.

[SilentWolff]

NEOGOTION IS IRRELEVANT



This is a mod for Sins of a Solar Empire

[Polymorphyne]

The orks never adapted to anything.... their lack of changing of tactics/weaponry caused the tyranids they fought not to adapt much either.

[Stahlseele]

@Longsword:
'Nids don't adapt to tactics.
They adapt to physiology and evolve weapons that are efective against that.

In a fight of Ork VS 'Nids it's a matter of who is hardiest and who breeds faster.
It is a bit surprising, that the ORKS of all people could have fought them to a stand still.
But it happened. And Borgs are better than Orks. So Borg would not fight them to a standstill but eradicate them.

[Adridos]

Stahlseele, on 03 March 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

As for 'Nids
Has there ever been a canon Necron Versus Tyrannids?
No, so no reliable Data here. They can't eat Necrons though.
And Necrons are made for killing huge numbers of enemies.

No, there wasn't. Nids simply go around tomb worlds, because they lack bio-mass.

But they don't eat their enemies, they tear them appart, spit acids on them,...

They can tear through an imperial titan in no time. They tear through the toughest metal in the universe like it was paper.

[Isaac Corbett]

Its simple. Tyranids would destroy both The end.

[Atlai]

Wil_Scarlet, on 03 December 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Got to thinking after reading some of the other threads here, it would be most interesting to see who you think would be the better in a fight?

Assimulation by the Borg brings all sorts of racies and species into the collective but what is the pace that it can be done? how quickly can it be implemented and then put into use across the galaxy?

The genetic mutation of the Zerg to take only the strongest portions of it's foes is amazing, but again, how fast can the Zerg mutate? can it match the speed and technology of the Borg? Do they need to? Last i checked who cares if you have shields when you have a zergling gnawing on your power converter...

Im going to go with the Flood on this one

[Zakatak]

Ditto.

The Flood brought a Type 2.5 Civilization down to its knees in under a year. A civilization that built planets and structures light-seconds across, created truly sentient AI, superweapons of galactic range, and could go 1 million times the speed of light. The Flood aren't limited to biomass or technology like the Zerg/Nids/Borg. They do it all. And it is unlikely you'll be able to beat them, because Gravemind is about 10 trillion times more intelligent then you are (he gains the knowledge of every person and computer the flood infects).

Unless you're Masturr Cheef, who is immune thanks to genes and plot armor.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

'Nids don't adapt to tactics.
They adapt to physiology and evolve weapons that are efective against that.

No, they do adapt to tactics. They dont differentiate between the physiology, weapons, technology or tactics of the enemy. To them they are all physiology.
None of those things change with the orcs- they are much the same as they were ten thousand years ago, so the tyranids dont get their adaptation accelerated such as with the tau.

edit: Also, the Tyranids are capable of brilliant tactics. When its just tyranid warriors/tervigons/etc providing synapse control, they just swarm towards the enemy. When a Hive Tyrant is on scene, they demonstrate tactical abilities on par with space marine or tau generals. When the Swarmlord is spawned (A stress induced response) the Tyranid Swarm outmaneuvers and outsmarts Marneus Calgar.

Edited by Longsword, 04 March 2012 - 07:47 PM.