51 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior414712]

I like it tbh as the skill tree bonuses made some mechs way too agile for their weight.

[Fredpunk]

Too agile? I don't think so they are too agile. With these nerfs it's pointless to bother at all with the mech tree. It would be better if it had different unlockables then...

[JustEvil]

Bud Crue, on 04 November 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Not exactly the detail I was hoping for, but thanks. To the point however:

If I read you correctly: the goal is to have less mobility and less power creep, and we will do this by nerfing the skills tree for all mechs and all players? Not scaling. Not engine caps. Not armor values. Not (just) eliminating weapons quirks...but we will look at the skills tree to address power creep and overly mobile mechs?

I guess I just don't see the skills tree as a source of these problems or anywhere near the source of these problems. To me the skills tree is what encourages me to perfect mech builds other than the meta, to invest in premium time, to consider the purchase of mech bundles, etc. I've never thought of it as somehow contributing to power creep (you want to see power creep? see Origins IIc for an example of power creep).

I think some changes to the skills tree are in order (for starters I would make it unique to each mech or at least to each mech class) but nerfing it across the board seems a misplaced focus for combating power creep and overly mobile mechs but I guess it is as good a place to start as any. I just think the ramifications to game play (long term enjoyment) will be pretty big if they go through with it.

Here's quick and short why with example.

Take a speed tweak which is the biggest offender when it comes to mobility creep. Take DWF and TBR. Before speed tweak it's 48.6 vs 81, difference is equal to 32,4 kph. After speed tweak it's 53.5 vs 89.1, difference is equal to 35,6 kph. After speed tweak TBR is faster than DWF by additional 3,2 kph. Disparity is bigger with bigger values, so SCR will have even more additional speed over DWF.

The same thing is with twists, turn rates, acceleration and other stuff. Disparity is created by values being in percentages - that means, faster and more mobile mech will have even more mobility over less mobile mech than it should. It creates toxic balance situations where mech like SCR can be as fast as some light mechs (with base speed, w/o speed tweak) and in addition to that it can twist around like crazy due to above 50% boost from double basics to it's already good mobility values. Those values should be either flat or either should be removed completely and skill tree should be about something else.

[Khobai]

Quote

I like it tbh as the skill tree bonuses made some mechs way too agile for their weight.

it did. but nerfing every mech just to nerf the tbr is dumb as hell.

thats why we need different skill trees for different mechs/weightclasses.

divide mechs into 6-8 different roles, give each role its own skill tree, and then you can balance mechs by role.

Or at the very least give each weight class its own skill tree.

that way you can fine tune balance much more easily... by nerfing/buffing the specific mechs that need it without affecting the other mechs.

[sycocys]

All of the mechs were far too agile, lights included. It's disappointing they didn't reduce or remove speed tweak as well.

Combine this with the many other things they are doing and the game will start heading towards more skilled and tactical play and farther away from the CoD instagib alpha/arcade play.

[Quintus Verus]

While I think the bonuses with the old system were too extreme, I know that no one will enjoy the moving in molasses feel you get with a completely new mech. That feeling is now, never going to go away.

This is going to give rise to the MWLL problem of light, fast mechs, with 100 SPL being damn near in possible to kill with anything other than a light. The ACH is already way way too OP. Take away a Heavy or Assault Mech's ability to turn and FS9 and ACH will be the mech of choice. I just bought the ACH and its a joke how powerful those things are. I had 23 kills before I died to an enemy mech. (over heated 4 times) You put these changes in and 4 ACH will tear things apart even more.

Just delete all these skills and introduce profiles: Assault, Support, Striker, and Scout that provide useful tweaks and boosts.

Edited by Quintus Verus, 04 November 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[sycocys]

The Cheetah also has bad hitboxes going for it. Was the same with the Raven early on, with those boxes fixed it would actually drop like any other light mech.

[gaSyeraSS]

this is too much of a nerf. barely able to move the torso of assault mechs running low engines sizes.

[sycocys]

gaSyeraSS, on 04 November 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

this is too much of a nerf. barely able to move the torso of assault mechs running low engines sizes.

You shouldn't be able to move them well with low engine sizes, you have a lot less power at your disposal.

[Vashramire]

People seem to be stuck on the notion that mobility values for augmenting a mech should be on a skill unlock system. Likely if things are off they can change the values that engines give as a base or give per chassis quirks. That's if it really is needed which I doubt it will be. Good pilots will cope since the values affect all mechs. Of course this is also just testing. I'm sure whether or not people whine about it super loud, they will get data on if it's crippling heavier mechs and adjust accordingly.

[sycocys]

Didn't feel at all crippling when I was running a King Crab with a 300 std, with just basics unlocked. In fact it actually felt far more like I was piloting a giant, heavy as hell assault mech than even something like a fully skilled Dire does on the live server.

[Fredpunk]

Still it doesn't make sense to make void every effort made to elite out the mechs, for with these changes they will worth nothing more than the basic mechs right now...

[Lucity]

I agree that this nerf was a long time coming, too many mechs have been way too nimble, now this does not fix everything, but it is a good start.

[KodiakGW]

A lot of the people saying this is good are forgetting those lighter mechs with low engine caps or locked low engines. Blackjack, Kit Fox, and Hunchback come to mind. They drove a lot different once they got the double efficiency. Test them and see if they can compete with the mechs that can put in 295 and above engines.

Edit - Forgot to add that those considering new players should remember two things. That they will start in Tier 4, not in the higher tiers with those that have mechs leveled and are used to the game. Also, leveling to finish off Elite to get double efficiency only takes a few days of playing time. The grind is getting the extra module slot. The additional module slot is useless until they have enough GXP to unlock at least three weapon modules or two mech modules.

Edited by KodiakGW, 05 November 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[Horus Heresy]

I see a lot of people that like this idea that end their statements with a "oh yea btw I hate heavies and assaults and I only play lights" and I know they are thinking to themselves "oh yea now I can REALLY run circles around the heavies/assaults and rack up damage because they won't be able to turn fast enough to ever hit me."

Turning everything in the heavy/assault classes into direwhales is not my idea of balancing.

Edited by Horus Heresy, 04 November 2015 - 11:47 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 04 November 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

it did. but nerfing every mech just to nerf the tbr is dumb as hell.

thats why we need different skill trees for different mechs/weightclasses.

divide mechs into 6-8 different roles, give each role its own skill tree, and then you can balance mechs by role.

Or at the very least give each weight class its own skill tree.

that way you can fine tune balance much more easily... by nerfing/buffing the specific mechs that need it without affecting the other mechs.

ah the good old pillars from dev blog??? what was it 4 - or was 4the MechLab?

Anyhow since Closed Beta - the current Skill system was never supposed to be something different from a placeholder....
and now the stuff that really´
when you go to this list you see all the Skill feats that could be available

So instead of matching the quirks as the new skills - we modify the values of the placeholder.

The size of this "bonus" skills anyhow should never be more than 2-5%
And the speed tweak was ok once - but now its survived its usability.
(It was ok to have my CTF-3D missing a 350 engine could have run a 325 as it would have been a 355-360)
But we have enough mechs so this boost is not longer necessary - not when you have stuff like MASC

Horus Heresy, on 04 November 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

I see a lot of people that like this idea that end their statements with a "oh yea btw I hate heavies and assaults and I only play lights" and I know they are thinking to themselves "oh yea now I can REALLY run circles around the heavies/assaults and rack up damage because they won't be able to turn fast enough to ever hit me."

Turning everything in the heavy/assault classes into direwhales is not my idea of balancing.

I run for the most part assaults - and i seldom level them between each couple of battles - and still i think the current skill placeholder has to go - as well as all those quirks - they have to BURN and DIE

[Fredpunk]

I think the whole pilot tree should be reworked, making mech groups and having group trees based on roles, or individual mechs, but this nerf in itself is stupid and makes the grind pointless.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

I kind of like the idea of mech trees based on roles.

[cazidin]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 05 November 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

I kind of like the idea of mech trees based on roles.

Me too. Maybe replace Convergence with a chassis/weight specific skill and add chassis/weight specific skills to the master tier? The poor master tier is lonely with only the Module Unlock.

(Or, to be more friendly to new players, combine some of the basic quirks like acceleration and deceleration to make room for basic chassis/weight specific skills, assuming they need the room. If not just add them?)

Edited by cazidin, 05 November 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Slambot]

Why nerf the basics? Tis silly. Monty Python silly. Rather than nerf the basics, how about some variety in them that will help each class of battlemech?