15 replies to this topic

[Ismael]

1. Get rid of the ghost heat system

2. Introduce penalties for overheating your mech, you can look at the modifiers from classic tabletop, like ammo explosion, pilot damage, modifier for fire (HUD disappears, cross hair begins to shake, weapon alignment suffers so pinpoint is no longer possible, reactor damage/shutdown, drastic reduction of movement and twisting to 5 kmH)

3. Introduce different hardpoints for bigger and smaller weapons, for example PPC, Gauss, AC20, LRM20 count as big weapons, medium laser as small weapons. At the moment its just funny that you can squeeze for example two AC5 in one arm of a wolverine. That are 16 Tons in one arm of a 55 ton mech. This new hardpoint system would also reduce boating, and would emphasise lore. For example an awesome would be awesome again because he carries 3 PPCs.

4. Introduce effect for lasers, if your mech is hit by an laser, your heat sight gets worse and your mech heats up for lets say 5% For a large laser it would be something like 0,45 heat

5. Reduce the effect of the lock mechanics that are on PTS by 50%

6. Dont touch the quirks, balance them if needed when 1.-5. is done

Edited by Ismael, 06 November 2015 - 11:33 PM.

[tokumboh]

Very interesting ideas:

I think the view of creating balance in the mechs essentially having lights which can laser boat for example takes away what we think lights are for, i.e scouting but there in lies I think the problem.

From the voting, what the conclusion is for me anyway is that people like in order:

1. Skirmish

People essentially like battling other mechs, I have seen this in the fact that even in assault a smart team will base rush and the opposition will be waiting to see them on some imaginary battlefield away from their base. essentially assault is played like skirmish in most cases. The bases are not truely defended in most of the assault matches I have played.

It also mean that strategy is just not important. So that is why conquest as rudimentary as it is not liked at all. You have a balance whether to go for the resources against killing the opposition. I see people get caught up in kill the opposition and find that they run out of time as they have haven't turned bases over and I even seen a team (and a PUG team at that give a team the run around while the Assault lance on Alpine stole two bases before engaging. I thin the time to engage becomes a factor.
People are just impatient.

Cold Maps

This one is obvious to me, even a hardened fan loves high alphas quick kills and harvesting cbills, xp and gxp. Cold maps allow you to lay down a lot of damage quickly, you need less self control and dare I say it as a lowly Tier 5 less skill. Believe you me the first thing I learnt was actually to be patient and try and last 15 minutes even if I did little damage is was weird that I seemed to do a lot better even now I get a rush of blood to the head or over extend and I am toast with minimal damage but finding buddy adding to their fire has got me some very good scores.


Difficult to Navigate Terrain

I think this applies to the Bog essentially people get stuck on all sorts and I believe again unless you are skilled or lucky getting hung up on something is, having said that I managed to get hung up on Mining Collective and I have not seen similar complaints

Visuals
I think thing like fog and anything that adds to obscurity tends to be voted down, Laser and long laser like clear days reasonable line of sights with ECM. which is why I think that Forest Colony get voted down, Night time negates long range somewhat fog and ECM mean that you are brawling and therefore need more team work more focus fire more comms

Now because of what I feel is the motivation for the above. I am not sure that any quirk changes will change how people think. Clearly they are not interested in strategy, yes hard core fans are but not the masses as we can see by the vote (an I am one of the complainers here.)

I don't think better game mode or any attempt to add more strategy will change anything. I suggest creating a couple of areas as per lore like Solaris and you find most people paying that as that what HPG Manifold is

Now I would like game modes with strategy such as escorting valuable resources and a set location it would mean scouts doing scouty thing and heavies and mediums doing basic grunt work and Assaults being the heavy hammer as it were but that takes AI at a level that would takes 18 months minimum to develop

The problem with the style of funding that PGI has is that it has to take detours to make enough money to make the game better. One could argue this is one of those detours which is supposed to help more of FPs crowd get into the game and if they pay then we get to play something better.

I suppose I would prefer that they said you want AI augmented missions then I'd pay US$100 for that after all people are paying that for sets of mechs


After the rant:

I think that the idea of mech balance is wrong personally, we should not have it Clan Tech is superior and therefore rarer so we should not be having 1v1 iin terms of numbers for the matches I think you should go for 12 v 9 or something. Secondly the PSR and whilst have improved arre still heavily skewed to winning so you could be on a great team and contribute little and PSR goes up but do very well contribution and even individually and find your PSR going down. I think the reward system should emphasize team work focus fire much more a mixture of fighting style, we have brawling, proximity protection but what about sniping. Lastly weak mechs need help. I think that the reason people don't play light much apart from them requiring the skill of a jedi is that unles you have a good boating/laser vomit meta you won't do much damage and there is not much else you can do in match other than do damage. We need to skew the rewards towards to hard to play things

Just my thoughts

[Thor Sten]

I totally agree with most of your points tokumboh, just a few side notes:

tokumboh, on 07 November 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

lights which can laser boat for example takes away what we think lights are for, i.e scouting but there in lies I think the problem.

I think, with the current Matchscore-Calculations, taking away firepower from the lights would hurt the overall game. For the Matchsore and PSR "damage done" always has the biggest impact.12 x scouting, 12 spottings and 10 Kill assists is pretty good for a scout, but nets you something like 150-180 points, which is barely enough to get a raise on Pilot Tier. I love scouting, but with the current match scores I can barely hold Tier 3. Without my Laser-Locust I would be still Tier 5. Cut away firepower for lights and all the Tier-1 Players have barely any scouts in their matches.

But as you said PSR could need some tweaking anyways. I'd prefer some extra points for archiving objectives besides getting the enemy killed.

Quote

I think you should go for 12 v 9 or something.

Lore would dictate 12-vs-10 or 16-vs-10, but in my experience nothing kills a players concentration more than being outnumbered. I think this will not work unless IS gets seriously nerfed AND Clan-mechs get only to be piloted by seriously good players (which would fit the lore, but won't "sell" the game).

[tokumboh]

Thor Sten, on 07 November 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

I totally agree with most of your points tokumboh, just a few side notes:

I think, with the current Matchscore-Calculations, taking away firepower from the lights would hurt the overall game. For the Matchsore and PSR "damage done" always has the biggest impact.12 x scouting, 12 spottings and 10 Kill assists is pretty good for a scout, but nets you something like 150-180 points, which is barely enough to get a raise on Pilot Tier. I love scouting, but with the current match scores I can barely hold Tier 3. Without my Laser-Locust I would be still Tier 5. Cut away firepower for lights and all the Tier-1 Players have barely any scouts in their matches.

But as you said PSR could need some tweaking anyways. I'd prefer some extra points for archiving objectives besides getting the enemy killed.

Lore would dictate 12-vs-10 or 16-vs-10, but in my experience nothing kills a players concentration more than being outnumbered. I think this will not work unless IS gets seriously nerfed AND Clan-mechs get only to be piloted by seriously good players (which would fit the lore, but won't "sell" the game).

You are indeed right, without rewards for things other than damage it becomes an issue of what weapons will allow max damage no matter what the weight class. I am worried about the changes they are making to make scouting better for example reducing the sensor range based on class for me is a recipe for LLAS light snipers with Assault being target practice.

I think the fact they have simplified some of lore such as how radars work and ECM for that matter has made these thing like invisibility cloaks together with skirmish centric, impatient gaming play (which I do understand if you are grinding) just does not help.

So I believe lights should get more point and cbills for finding the enemy than for damage the maps should be bigger and that I aslo believe we should be scouting for resources on the battle field too such as extra ammo, fuel to power mechs, for example I believe that the mechs should only have 5 minutes of power and you need to secure more power resources for you teams to continue in all modes.

Some these ideas would take a level of AI some however just need suitable maps. I have watched some CW Youtube videos and I think the problem with those are that it is still stilted game play less actual strategy per se.

The idea of using lore to dictate numbers in battle is I think OK. I think at the moment IS Mechs are buffed to allow a somewhat more even fight although I would not go up head to head with Timberwolf in a Cataphract (well possibly an 0XP) even with the quirks.

I think the problem with trying to base it on FPS is that most of those games are essentially individual quest type games and Mechwarrior has been sold on cooperative play which in fairness. in solo queue is often performed by luck rather than intention even with VOIP.

Interesting discussion and thanks for your thoughts

[corpse256]

maybe more game points need to be introduced or buff up the scores for scouting so that they will be encourage to not fight but to gather information and maintain battlefield information for the whole team.

[CainenEX]

Ismael, on 06 November 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

1. Get rid of the ghost heat system

2. Introduce penalties for overheating your mech, you can look at the modifiers from classic tabletop, like ammo explosion, pilot damage, modifier for fire (HUD disappears, cross hair begins to shake, weapon alignment suffers so pinpoint is no longer possible, reactor damage/shutdown, drastic reduction of movement and twisting to 5 kmH)

3. Introduce different hardpoints for bigger and smaller weapons, for example PPC, Gauss, AC20, LRM20 count as big weapons, medium laser as small weapons. At the moment its just funny that you can squeeze for example two AC5 in one arm of a wolverine. That are 16 Tons in one arm of a 55 ton mech. This new hardpoint system would also reduce boating, and would emphasise lore. For example an awesome would be awesome again because he carries 3 PPCs.

4. Introduce effect for lasers, if your mech is hit by an laser, your heat sight gets worse and your mech heats up for lets say 5% For a large laser it would be something like 0,45 heat

5. Reduce the effect of the lock mechanics that are on PTS by 50%

6. Dont touch the quirks, balance them if needed when 1.-5. is done

1. GH is there because they haven't come up with something better. It's not going to be removed until something better is implemented.

2. You take CT damage when you remain over 90% heat for too long. If anything possible degradation to movement or torso might be possible. No ammo explosions, that will just make non-gauss ballistics useless.
Might be worth taking a look into.

3. I'm not a big lore buff. Hard point slot system from MW4 was kinda cool. Again might be worth exploring, but won't address high alpha strike issues, which was present in MW2-4 anyways.

4. I don't think that is a viable solution. Lasers are already hot enough. I'd rather not over nerf them. We need proper balance so we should be looking into the weapon stats.

5. If you are speaking about the laser optimum damage lock mechanics then those need to be removed. The rest of the introduced mechanics are fine.

[Rejarial Galatan]

CainenEX, I am going to address one thing you said: No ammo explosions, that will just make non-gauss ballistics useless" I am going to assume here you know NOTHING of how bullets and missiles function. See, bullets and missiles have propellants in them, gunpowder for bullets and solid rocket fuel for missiles. You see, when such materials exceed their particular flashpoints they tend to detonate. I do not know your age, but, lets take a trip down American Shuttle Program History for a moment, to January 28, 1986. Why is this particular date important? Well, you see, NASA was under pressure to launch the Teacher In Space program on board Challenger. See, in a nutshell, a Shuttle Solid Rocket Booster started to leak burning propellant from the lower most joint, this caused a major and catastrophic failure. HOW? Simple, it over heated the liquid propellants and well, history is history.

As for bullets? Same thing, they get to a certain temp and BOOM the propellant in the casing goes off and the bullets explode. Its why the USS Forreestal exploded the way it did when a fighter malfunctioned and fired off multiple rockets into other aircraft, or say the Enterprise when a japanese bomb penetrated the magazine of the ship. You see heat plus chemically propelled weapons = disaster. Its hyper unreal to remove such a basic function of physics.

[Ismael]

CainenEX, on 08 November 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

1. GH is there because they haven't come up with something better. It's not going to be removed until something better is implemented.

2. You take CT damage when you remain over 90% heat for too long. If anything possible degradation to movement or torso might be possible. No ammo explosions, that will just make non-gauss ballistics useless.
Might be worth taking a look into.

3. I'm not a big lore buff. Hard point slot system from MW4 was kinda cool. Again might be worth exploring, but won't address high alpha strike issues, which was present in MW2-4 anyways.

4. I don't think that is a viable solution. Lasers are already hot enough. I'd rather not over nerf them. We need proper balance so we should be looking into the weapon stats.

5. If you are speaking about the laser optimum damage lock mechanics then those need to be removed. The rest of the introduced mechanics are fine.

You did not read or perhaps understand what i wrote. These suggestions are not meant singular.

1. Ghost heat is implemented because boating is possible.

2. If you get rid of ghost heat, introduce enough penalties for overheating your mech. Movement for example should be drastically reduced and thereby torso twisting would also impossible. A pilot that decides to take the risk to do so, can't twist away after he shot an alpha strike, that is fair.
Ammo explosion are in the game, but they start at a very high level of heat. How about this: a pilot overheats his mech for lets say 50%, the chance for ammo explosion would be something like 5%. Towards 100% this chance would rise exponentially.

3. Different hardpoints are not a high alpha issue they are a boating issue. Boating allows pilots to easily control there mechs, it is no challenge to pilot a mech which has two weapon systems. And it conducts boring playstyles (jumpsniper, LRM5 chainfire, backstabbing lights with alpha of above 30, high alpha face tankers, and so on). In this state of the game, it is more important how much firepower you can burst out with a single alpha, and not what movement skills you have. This makes game less dynamic in my eyes. Beside that: In MWO you can attach every weapon to every mech as long as you have the hardpoint and the tonnage free for it. Beside that: a raven with 35t carries a weapon that weighs 14 tons?

4. It is a buff not a nerf. I explained it bad sorry for my english "if your mech is hit by an laser, your heat sight gets worse and your mech heats up for lets say 5% For a large laser it would be something like 0,45 heat" that means lasers would increase the heat of the target on which they are shot. The effect I describe are for the target.

5. What is with the quirks? As Paul Inouye writes, they will be gone after PTS phase is finished. He describes how he wants to make the Jenner variants more different from each other. Why? The Jenner is meant to be played as fast striker that hunts other mechs in a pack. My only suggestions are to think about 1.-4 and then start to balance the quirks. True is: Some of the quirks are overpowered at the moment, for example the Thunderbolt was a fine mech before the quirks (high mounted energy hard points nearly on same level as cockpit). PGI always tends to buff and nerf with a sledge hammer.

Edited by Ismael, 08 November 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Ismael, on 06 November 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

2. Introduce penalties for overheating your mech, you can look at the modifiers from classic tabletop, like ammo explosion, pilot damage, modifier for fire (HUD disappears, cross hair begins to shake, weapon alignment suffers so pinpoint is no longer possible, reactor damage/shutdown, drastic reduction of movement and twisting to 5 kmH)

this only makes energy/missile chassis that are the worst in the game (trebuchet, awesome, quickdraw) even worse
HOW ABOUT NO on this noise

[Ismael]

Mazzyplz, on 08 November 2015 - 11:26 PM, said:

this only makes energy/missile chassis that are the worst in the game (trebuchet, awesome, quickdraw) even worse
HOW ABOUT NO on this noise

Why? The awesome for example would be one of the mechs that are allowed to carry 3 PPCs. Simply as it is in lore. I like my trebuchets but I dont play them because the hitboxes are to big in my eyes, but thats another problem.

Edited by Ismael, 08 November 2015 - 11:33 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Ismael, on 08 November 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Why? The awesome for example would be one of the mechs that are allowed to carry 3 PPCs. Simply as it is in lore. I like my trebuchets but I dont play them because the hitboxes are to big in my eyes, but thats another problem.

because with 3 ppcs; a bunch of lasers or SRMS you're BOUND to heat up before your ballistics team mates and suffer the "penalties" you're talking about, before popular mechs that run dual gauss.

how are you going to prevent the 3ppcs from being absolutely USELESS with your heat penalties?

you will shoot an enemy for 30 with 3 ppcs, and start limping and moving slowly ETC; and the enemy phract or dire or whatever just shoots 2 gauss for 30 without any penalties at all?

[Ismael]

Mazzyplz, on 09 November 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

because with 3 ppcs; a bunch of lasers or SRMS you're BOUND to heat up before your ballistics team mates and suffer the "penalties" you're talking about, before popular mechs that run dual gauss.

how are you going to prevent the 3ppcs from being absolutely USELESS with your heat penalties?

you will shoot an enemy for 30 with 3 ppcs, and start limping and moving slowly ETC; and the enemy phract or dire or whatever just shoots 2 gauss for 30 without any penalties at all?

Keep cool and stay polite.

You just read one point of my five. I wrote that PGI should get rid of ghost heat. This would mean you can fire 3 PPCs without ghost heat. If you do so you must cool down a bit, fire two PPC next time and then three again. You cannot balance every weapon system against each other. Energy weapons and ballistic weapons have advantages and disadvantages.

They tweaked and nerfed the PPCs so much, thats why everybody is playing lasers. The reason: Laser damage is at least damage over time. If you miss a PPC shot, you missed it. For long range the lasers will win, because there is not projectile speed. The PPC is meant to be the most fearsome weapon in Battletech. Now it is just crippled down.

[Mazzyplz]

i was playing this game before they introduce ghost heat, and i was driving the awesome then -
let me tell you even without ghost heat you cannot match up to the dual gauss projectile speed, competitive range and low heat -

i know where you're getting your ideas you're one of those people who think the tabletop game with the dice has all the answers mwo needs; but that's just not the reality of things. even tabletop values failed completely when they were put in the game.

it doesn't matter how much you buff ppcs; the heat + your heat penalty from tabletop means they will always make the mechs i mentioned that are already bad - much much worse

i read the whole thing you posted.

if you remove the ghost heat then you can go back to shooting 2x ac20's without extra heat, but what does the ppc platform get? a slap across the face


the only way this would work is if you make ppcs/erppcs not hot. and also SRM and reduce laser heat a little bit.

otherwise people just laugh at the tard who brought the awesome who shoots once and then starts limping and gettin sluggish; instead of making bad mechs like that better you end up making them worse

what does this solve? how does this make the game better? all that this does is roll back the game one year to when ballistic was everything anyone ever used; and occasionally LRM

[Ismael]

You cannot balance every weapon system against each other. Energy weapons and ballistic weapons have advantages and disadvantages.

What ever. I am playing this game since beta too. Is this your argument? I was playing the thunderbolt before they quirked it. I was playing PPC/Gauss before the nerfed both, I could write all day long such things. As I wrote you can not balance each and every weapon system against each other. They quirked the IS Mechs? Fine its nice, btw. many of the quirks include less heat generation on the energy variants.

And once again I realize why I dont write in the forum, Too much aggressive people that think they know everything better and insult other peoples feedback as "noise". Its my personal opinion and I have the right to write it in this thread.

Edited by Ismael, 10 November 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

and i have the right to point out the flaws on how your opinion would make things worse, i'm sorry if you can't take criticism for your ideas but i don't want to see the game be worse off cause somebody wants to implement TT rules

heatscale penalties would just mess some mechs up that actually need some love not a nerf.



you said my whole argument is how long i have been playing but that's a silly strawman you just came up with; i only said i was using my bad mech before they put the ghost heat in because you mentioned removing ghost heat and how it would make 3 ppc as good as dual gauss. but it doesn't.
not in the slightest and to boot it has like 3x the heat - ghostheat or not


and if you can't implement your ideas without quirking stuff to generate less heat then what does that say about your foresight

furthermore if your idea needs the quirks to be redone then why didn't you mention it before;
maybe because you didn't think that far ahead?

this heatscale thing gets suggested every other week; and at least pgi has the good sense to know these people are thinking with their nostalgia glasses and haven't even considered how it would impact the different chassis

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 November 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Ismael]

Mazzyplz, on 11 November 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

and i have the right to point out the flaws on how your opinion would make things worse, i'm sorry if you can't take criticism for your ideas but i don't want to see the game be worse off cause somebody wants to implement TT rules

heatscale penalties would just mess some mechs up that actually need some love not a nerf.



you said my whole argument is how long i have been playing but that's a silly strawman you just came up with; i only said i was using my bad mech before they put the ghost heat in because you mentioned removing ghost heat and how it would make 3 ppc as good as dual gauss. but it doesn't.
not in the slightest and to boot it has like 3x the heat - ghostheat or not


and if you can't implement your ideas without quirking stuff to generate less heat then what does that say about your foresight

furthermore if your idea needs the quirks to be redone then why didn't you mention it before;
maybe because you didn't think that far ahead?

this heatscale thing gets suggested every other week; and at least pgi has the good sense to know these people are thinking with their nostalgia glasses and haven't even considered how it would impact the different chassis

Read my first post it contains 6 points, the last one is "6. Dont touch the quirks, balance them if needed when" It is ok to give feedback, but please read the whole thread and everything otherwise it kind of painful to explain again and again and again. What my idea was, when I written everything in the first post.

I did not mentioned anything about how long I am playing the game, you brought this whole issue to this discussion I quote from your post #13 "i was playing this game before they introduce ghost heat, and i was driving the awesome then -
let me tell you even without ghost heat you cannot match up to the dual gauss projectile speed, competitive range and low heat -" As I said, I am playing this game quite as long as you, with all its evolution in the past years. Nontheless it doesnt matter how long somebody is playing a game. Explain somebody who begins the game new, the whole issue about ghost heat. I suppose it will get complicated to explain why ghost heat is in the game. By the way my suggestion for penalties getting your mech heated up included ammo explosion and this would have an effect on ballistic builds.

Ghost heat was introduced to get rid of one serious problem: boating. It has begun when people crammed PPCs or other weapons and killed people with one shot. To avoid that, ghost heat was introduced. But this is not the problem. The problem is that PGI allows us to stack any type of weapon in any mech, as long as there are hardpoints for it. You get the problem? First they allow everybody to do so and when many people start boating they punish it. Quite crazy isnt it?

Whatever. Cya on battlefield.