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Pts #3 General Feedback And Impressions


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#1 Tahribator

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 06:46 AM

PTS #3 Impressions

I tested the PTS for a good three hours yesterday. Pretty much everything I wanted to check was crossed off the list. So today, while my memories are still fresh, I wanted to share my impressions and comments on the third iteration of the PTS. For my sanity's and the reader's sake I'll try to keep this on-point and concise. You can also watch me playing PTS #3 here. If you're ready, let's talk about the changes.

'Mech TTK boosts
This is the first thing I checked since it's a huge deal. To quote PGI's comment on this from the patch notes:

Quote

This PTS also includes an array of per-variant Internal Structure and Armor Quirks intended to increase time-to-kill (TTK) across the board. These changes mean the Atlas is about to become a force to be reckoned with, while most Light ‘Mechs will be able to protect themselves considerably better compared to their current state in the live servers.


This sounds extremely promising, what are the actual changes though?

What they actually did is that they gave most variants a blanket armor and internal buff which shows up as "Additional Armor (Full Body)" and "Additional Internal Structure (Full Body)". No additional buffs to individual components. I don't know if this is the last extend of the TTK boosts since the loss of individual components buffs hurt some chassis's more than the others. A Centurion with blanked buffs to each component benefits more from it than a Hunchback who needs extra hunch health to protect it.

I noticed a rather disappointing pattern for many 'Mechs. For example the COM-3A gets +10 armor and +12 structure to each component, making it a tiny little Atlas from hell. However, other Commandos get a meager +4 armor and +5 structure. I don't like this specific treatment. Do the other Commandos need less help than the COM-3A? Are they naturally more tanky? No. They need that treatment as much as the COM-3A to be competitive. It's the same with the other 'Mechs too. For example all of the Dragons except the 5N get +6 armor and +9 internals, while we have the 5N receiving +16 armor and +21 structure. Same thing here, other Dragons need this treatment as much as the 5N. PGI, each variant inherits the same advantages and disadvantages of its chassis. If you think one variant needs this much help, then the others definitely need it as well. I'm not against making some variants slightly tankier to emphasize their brawliness, but there shouldn't be a ridiculous difference.

Since these are full body buffs, I think the light category gets the short end of the stick of these changes. The torso health is usually never a problem for the lights (except the Wolfhound and the Jenner), but leg health is never enough since that's where everyone shoots at. Almost every single light needs specific health boosts to their legs (hell, let's say +10) to ensure they're survivable. These blanket buffs don't really address that issue.

Another pattern I noticed is that hero variants get better treatment. For example Jenners get absolutely nothing (except the Oxide) and Firestarters get nothing too (except the Ember). The Huginn gets ridiculous buffs compared to other Ravens (it might get away with it since it's brawly). Same story for the Awesome and the Quickdraw. Their standard variants get absolutely no health boosts while their hero variants get armor and structure bonuses. Again PGI, if you think a variant needs help surviving, then every single variant needs them. Period. This is not always true though. For example the Protector doesn't get anything at all while standard Orions get some health buff (Again, why? It's an Orion after all!).

Finally I was sad to see some variants know for their "tankiness" go. For example the Zeus loses its only redeeming quality; its massive armor and structure quirks. In fact, it doesn't get any buffs at all. PGI, please keep the characters of the 'Mechs you established with the quirks!

There are also a lot of variants that didn't get what they deserve, but I'll stop here. Overall, a good idea, but please put more thought in it PGI. And no variants with double or triple amount of buffs compared to others.

Laser lock shenanigans
I did not test it in the previous PTS since I thought it wasn't mature enough, but yesterday I put in a lot of time in it. So basically, your laser optimal range is reduced by 40% if you're not locked onto the 'Mech you're shooting at. You don't get any hitmarker feedback. You also can't use friendly locks and always have full-range. Even if you're using a friendly lock, your 'Mech needs to have a LOS and must acquire the target on its own before raising the optimal range.

First of all, in the beginning this is annoying to play with and unnecessarily complex. Instead of playing with the weapon values themselves, PGI insists on implementing these unintuitive changes. At this stage I reckon they'll go ahead with it since they probably want to get this "rebalance" out of the door ASAP before the Steam release, so let's talk about what this change does to gameplay.

It nerfs laser vomits, hard. This is a nerf on the scale of JJ and PPC changes when the Clans were released. Suddenly, your favorite ERML/ML laser peeker/poker won't work as well at range and you'll have to get close to 200-300 meters to get the full peformance without a lock. Depending on your lasers, you're pretty much forced to get really close.

Now, I'm not going to call this change negative right away. I'm one of those who thinks ridiculous laser vomit alphas don't do good to the gameplay. This basically prevents those huge alphas evaporating stuff at 400-600 meters without breaking a sweat. It might be a really weird way to do it, but it does it anyway. C-LPLs and C-ERLL still have a lot of reach (360M and about 450M without a lock) so you still can do some work at range, but you can't boost your damage with the inclusion of ERMLs. However, IS gets the shaft in this regard because their lasers don't have as much range.

So without locks, forget about your C-LPL/ERML boat sitting behind a rock and shooting across the map. You can either do it with C-LPLs only, get some locks miraculously (more on that later) or simply get closer to the fight.

However, our beloved Infotech comes in to play here and makes locking harder for pretty much every 'Mech. See, some 'Mechs have inherent delays for targeting enemy 'Mechs. So even if you have an enemy in front of you and in sensor range, you can't lock them before you go through that delay. The delay ranges from 0.5 seconds to all the way to 4.5 seconds (maybe even more), depending on your 'Mech and omnipod combination. Especially the current notorious laser vomits are already pre-nerfed in this aspect. The Dire Wolf comes with a whopping 4.5 seconds of targeting delay, while the TBR has about 3.5 seconds with laser omnipods. Generally lights have less delay while assaults get ridiculous delays. What this delay does is that it prevents you from doing successful peeks and being effective in certain situations. You have to keep the enemy in sight for a long time if you want to apply damage, period.

I had an instance where I was in a brawly Dire with SPLs charging the basement on HPG and there were all kinds of 'Mechs running in front of me and I could not target any of them with that monster 4.5 second targeting delay. It was incredibly frustrating to have 4 'Mechs right in front of you, but being unable to lock them or even get doritos on them at all. It wasn't fun and it won't be fun for many people. PGI is basically taking fun out of the game in order to balance the game in an incredibly weird way here.

Lastly, the lack of hitmarkes with no lock. This is at first annoying since we're all used to getting feedback on every hit (not to mention our brains are addicted to that marker turning red). However after a few rounds it got betters as I got used to it. It really drives you to get locks.

Gauss nerf
Well, laser vomits are suddenly bad. What do?! Of course, PGI knows people will flock to the good ol' trusty, Gauss+(ER)PPC combo. So they nerfed the Gauss cooldown by 1.5 seconds (up to 5.5 seconds) pre-emptively. Including the cooldown, that's 6.25 seconds between each shot, an almost 25% nerf to its DPS. It also desyncs it from PPCs.

Honestly, I like it. We all knew that the Gauss was too good for what it was. It had the DPS to be used at all ranges while having only one real drawback, explosions. Which can be somewhat remedied by shifting its position to arms, where it'll rarely get cored compared to the torso. I tried the Gauss, and honestly it's still a good sniper weapon now. In a long-ish match you can still pull off good damage with it. However whenever you're pressed close range, you'll feel the lack of DPS. It just won't be enough and you'll need to rely on your back-up weapons.

Another cool side-effect is because the Gauss cooldown is longer, and we tend to sync our Gauss releases with our PPC releases, this indirectly nerfs the (ER)PPC DPS at long range too. You can either wait until your Gauss reloads or choose to release them seperately which exposes you longer and involves more aiming other than quick snapshots.

New meta?
I've seen some people trying to revive the AC5+PPC Victors, but honestly, I think Gauss+ERPPC sniping will be the way to go after the rebalance. No locks required, fast projectiles and fast bullet travel time. Minimal exposure. It's a no brainer. Expect the Gauss+PPC Timber to make a comeback and you'll see a lot more Summoners as well. People will always find a way to maximize their fun and minimize their opponent's fun.

The Dragon Slayer with AC5+PPC might come back, but it can't trade with Gauss+ERPPC snapshooters. AC5+PPC are considerably slower than they were before and if my engagements yesterday showed anything, Gauss combo will triumph every time at range.

We're going back to the trench warfare folks! Ready your Gauss and PPCs.

The return of the AC2
This was another thing I was genuinely excited about. They made the AC2 a crit-seeker weapon with a monster double-damage when it crits. Basically a machine gun that does way more damage and without a silly cone-of-fire.

They did it. AC2s feel really good now. Until you go through armor, nothing is changed. You only put dents in their armor. However as soon as a component opens, the AC2 rips it apart. It's ridiculously effective.

It's not OP or anything though. The weapon still spreads damage all over the enemy 'Mech and needs a unhealthy amount of face-time, so it's nicely balanced. 6xAC2s are probably the last thing you want to see if you have a component open though.

Skills nerf
This a big, big change. Now we're no longer getting those ridiculous bonuses from basics and eliting 'Mechs. Honestly after trying it, I like it. 'Mechs behave like the classes they are. Lights and mediums are only slightly affected but heavier 'Mechs feel considerably different. Even a TBR feels slightly sluggish. When you move on to assaults, things get seriously sluggish. You're in trouble if you have a tiny engine in your assault right now as its mobility will suffer a lot. A Dire is absolutely helpless at close range and won't react well to targets suddenly popping up at mid ranges.

At this point, your engine size gains importance. A BNC-3M with a huge XL in it is still very controllable for example. But drop to a STD300 and you'll feel the "floatiness". It's not unplayable by any means but you can't make your Assaults "all-in-one" 'Mechs without sacrifices anymore. You can't have a tiny engine assault and expect to have the reaction time. I think it's a good trade-off.

However, with the basics and elites mostly gutted, the skill tree is mostly meaningless right now. They really should just scrap it and introduce a skill tree that involves actual choices with trade-offs and specialization paths rather than straight up buffs.

LRM changes, ECM and Radar Derp
With the function of the ECM changed from being a jesus-box to an AM receiver, I thought lurming would get much more easier. LRMs are also both buffed (less spread) and nerfed (longer cooldown). Honestly, I didn't notice much of a difference. If you're in a big and slow LRM boat, chances are you get a bad targeting delay and you'll struggle to lock stuff anyway. The ECM and Radar Derp are still effective because ECM introduces a nasty targeting delay, while the Radar Derp immediately breaks lock. I didn't do too badly in one lurm match I've been in, but it's a very small sample.

I think Radar Deprivation is too strong in its current form. Since targeting takes a lot of time already, when you keep breaking it constantly with the Radar Deprivation it becomes impossible to hold a steady lock at all. They really should look into it.

(S)SRM speed buff
They did the most logical move to be done and buffed the SRM speed. It went from 300 m/s to 400 m/s, a massive jump. I tested it a few times and the flight time makes them indeed easier to aim. At least you don't need to face hug your opponents to get your shots in. I'd say this extends the SRM no escape zone to from about 100 meters to 150 meters. A decent change, but it's yet to be seen how effective. They really should think about buffing the damage as well if this is not enough.

I did not test the SSRM buffs, it's just not worth it. They all get 50 m/s so it should be noticeable though. Clans definitely did not need it. With the amount of targeting delays though, I doubt we'll be able to get proper SSRM shots off on lights anyway.

Other changes
Clan DHS got a slight nerf (heat capacity down to 1.1) but honestly it was hard to judge the impact because of the skill tree changes. Since Clans can bring a ridiculous number of DHS compared to IS, it should be fine however.

MPL heatscale is a change and it only affects select IS 'Mechs like the TDR, GHR, BJ and the BNC. Honestly considering what Clan laser vomits are capable of, there was nothing wrong with it. What's worse IS MPL is capped at 6 while Clan MPL is also capped at 6, a weapon that is much more capable and versatile. PGI really needs to think about IS vs Clan balance in terms of ghost heat caps at this point.

As I mentioned (and did some math) in the previous PTS post, the SHS changes are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, except for a few niche AWS or BNC-3M builds.

Conclusions
As always, there is some good, some bad and some ugly. About the bad and ugly stuff; PGI has some good intentions, but the way they do it is unnecessarily complicated and takes fun out from the gameplay rather than introducing it. Laser lock requirement is the prime example. There are also good stuff like SRM changes, Gauss nerf, skills nerf and some of the TTK changes that I really liked.

I think if they stopped trying to make "infotech" relevant, the changes will turn out to be mostly positive. It's taking fun out of the game. Focus on weapon values themselves instead and solve the real issue. We tolerate Ghost Heat but laser locking system is taking it too far to be enjoyable.

Edited by Tahribator, 05 November 2015 - 06:46 AM.


#2 Kira Onime

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:24 AM

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#3 Jabilac

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:13 AM

I like the laser locking requirements but it feels heavy handed. With all the locking delays combines it becomes kinda ridiculous to hold locks. I think it needs a manual targeting mechanic of some sort. Let me 'lock' something I can see but not start receiving paperdoll info until after the delay.

On a side note a few of my PTS matches had people using narc to track targets and using tag to immediately target enemies. It was a little surprising to get narced since it is rare on the live server but it helped the reds keep track of us during that match.

Skill tree changes felt great but there needs to be more module options to really make each mech unique to its pilot. I.E. arm speed module, torso twist speed module, acceleration/deceleration module, ect...

#4 Kira Onime

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:23 AM

You know that time when you joked back at someone saying "hold locks I got lurms" with "hold locks I got lasers" ...... yeah.....
PGI wants that to be a thing now.

#5 Skarlock

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:42 AM

Nice summary Rak, however I have to disagree with you vehemently on gauss. The gauss rifle is 12 tons for clans and 15 tons for IS. It's an extremely heavy and fairly bulky weapon compared to pretty much everything but the UAC/20, LBX-20, and AC/20. For that weight and space cost you could take 2 clan large pulse lasers and a few heat sinks instead of ammo for the gauss and crank out considerably more alpha at similar optimal ranges (though the gauss does more damage at extreme ranges). If they had nerfed CLAN GAUSS ONLY with this change to cool down, I think I'd be perfectly ok with it. After all, the clan version of the weapon is considerably lighter and smaller. IS mechs with ballistic side torsos run huge risks taking a gauss when combined with an XL engine, clan mechs get C.A.S.E. on every component preventing any damage transferring to side or center torsos for arm mounted gauss, thereby limiting the actual damage the explosion does in many cases. IS mechs don't have the omnipod system on any mechs (yet) to allow a lot of variants to even take a nicely high mounted gauss safely with an XL engine, which considering the weight, is often needed for lower tonned IS mechs.

As if these issues weren't enough for IS mechs and gauss, IS has far fewer good ballistic options to replace the gauss. The IS AC/10 is considered a bad joke, whereas the UAC/10 is a fairly respectable weapon, and slightly lighter. It would be far easier to adjust builds on the clan side thanks to omnipods and having many more options in general, whereas on the IS side, the lack of good substitutions is a pretty severe blow to the IS ballistic weapon pool.

Edited by Skarlock, 05 November 2015 - 08:44 AM.


#6 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:02 AM

View PostSkarlock, on 05 November 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

If they had nerfed CLAN GAUSS ONLY with this change to cool down

IS Gauss is still better than all other IS ballistics, but I agree they didn't need the same level of nerf.

#7 Skarlock

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 10:29 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 05 November 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

IS Gauss is still better than all other IS ballistics, but I agree they didn't need the same level of nerf.


Keep in mind that a lot of the ballistic quirks IS mechs currently have will more than likely be removed or be toned down as well. With those gone this is more like a double nerf to the IS side.

#8 Scandinavian Jawbreaker

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 10:38 AM

Well put thoughts. I just got the PTS patched, now hoping for matches... However I think I will end up with pretty much the same conclusions as you.

#9 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 11:43 AM

View PostSkarlock, on 05 November 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Keep in mind that a lot of the ballistic quirks IS mechs currently have will more than likely be removed or be toned down as well. With those gone this is more like a double nerf to the IS side.

Not really considering very few were quirked heavily for Gauss outside of mechs like the GI.
For IS Gauss, 4.75 would've been a nice medium, while also buffing ACs because they suffer the most without quirks due to how bad they are.

#10 Anyone00

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 02:08 PM

I can't help but think the TTK increase on assaults has more to do with the fact there aren't ~9 enemies shooting at them the second they leave cover than the armor/structure buffs.

#11 Serpentbane

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 02:25 PM

Lock on for lasers are the dumbest darn thing they have come up with besides ghost heat and map voting...

IMO MWO is pulling away from the Mechwarrior sim I personally wanted, becoming more and more an arena style rock, paper scissors kind of game by every patch...

Was hoping the new rebalancing would change that, but in my opinion the new rebalancing is still geared towards the arena shooter mech arcade slash and dash game. I want the underlaying mechanics of the game to change first.

I want more teamplay, more tactical play, more role based play. More objective based matches.

#12 50 50

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 05:32 PM

Will likely see the modules get updated later.
It would be logical to see Radar Deprivation use the same stat changes and would likely be the opposite of the Advanced Target Decay.
Some of the changes look like they are there to make comparisons, such as the armour buffs, within a chassis.
Combine that with other features such as the radar profile of the mech and it might start falling into place a bit more.
All combined with the earlier changes, the mechs will have more depth and character to the than before.

#13 Sable

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:21 PM

I agree with what someone said in this thread. Targetting should stay the same as live but target info should received the delay. When i first read the patch notes i thought using LRMs would get better but it's like everyone has ECM now. Maybe if radar worked through walls ONLY for the minimap and you'd still have to get a visual to lock on. There are several ideas they could do to improve it, but as it stands now i do not like it.

I'm fine with gauss changes, i've already switched out one mech to UAC10 to test dps. Now i'm faced with the choice of long cooldown sniper weapon with no heat or more utilitarian dps weapon that produces heat.

The targetting delay seriously needs some work for a more enjoyable experience.

As for laser ranges, they are directly linked to the targetting delay problem. I wouldn't mind longer ranges taking more to target but when they are 300 meters in front of you they need to show up instantly.

#14 Amerante

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 01:38 AM

If PGI wish to make infotech relevant, they could tie it to pipoint alphas.
Unless you have lock, your weapons spread a bit, or converge to its max range.

#15 Nik Reaper

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 02:40 AM

How I see it is this:

Keep srm , lrm, ecm, heatsinks behavior with tweeks, retweek skill tree per variant, redo armor per location and if adding armor to a mech have a baseline amount given to all variants. Gauss might do with a bit of cooldown nerf but this is too much more so for IS.

Change acquisition delay to not be a mechs ability to detect a mech but it's ability to not get detected ( sensor profile ) so about 0.5 sec for mechs with ecm while at most 0.25, for mechs without it that are large ( the smaller the mech the larger the number ei. it can be undetected longer and some mechs like the blacknight that is supposed to be sneaky mech might get a slight increase )

Lasers should do max damage at optimal range with or without lock but rapid decrease of damage after optimal range without lock.

Return a colored hit indicator even without lock.

With changes like this some mechs would get free armor, but there are a number that need them all around or on specific locations, some mechs would be harder to detect making them more suitable for peeking play, the laser meta would be contained to ~450m instead of the current ~600m one but still a viable usable strategy, more so as the LPL+Gauss combo would lose on DPS and we might see a return of poptarts but not a complete meta shift to them.

#16 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 02:51 AM

Lock on for lasers will effectively kill lasers as a weapon system on bigger mechs, as currently constituted - imo at least. If i have to wait 3+ seconds to get actual damage with lasers, im not going to bring lasers, im going to bring PPCs and ACs. Every other T1 ive spoken to agrees, btw.

Thats one thing, laser spam gets old after a while, but im going to be a little bit upset when the BNC-3M goes from #1 best mech in the Inner Sphere to junk-tier in one patch. (it cannot be a good mech without lasers being good, PPCs wont force up to the high mounts so it loses what makes it good if you dont run lasers). Guess ill try to get it to exactly 1500 games before this comes in, and leave it there forever resting in piece in my stats, lol.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 November 2015 - 02:53 AM.


#17 Nik Reaper

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:06 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Lock on for lasers will effectively kill lasers as a weapon system on bigger mechs, as currently constituted - imo at least. If i have to wait 3+ seconds to get actual damage with lasers, im not going to bring lasers, im going to bring PPCs and ACs. Every other T1 ive spoken to agrees, btw.

Thats one thing, laser spam gets old after a while, but im going to be a little bit upset when the BNC-3M goes from #1 best mech in the Inner Sphere to junk-tier in one patch. (it cannot be a good mech without lasers being good, PPCs wont force up to the high mounts so it loses what makes it good if you dont run lasers). Guess ill try to get it to exactly 1500 games before this comes in, and leave it there forever resting in piece in my stats, lol.


Yeah, most are aware of it, the question is what could be, if anything, done to this system to make it usable and not crippling for lasers and gauss but still not to have them be so dominant.
BTW yes we are asked to develop stuff for PGI :) .

#18 BattleBunny

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:09 AM

This laser-lock on mechanic will make lasers completely redundant. It will be a weapon where you will have to rely on your teammates to provide locks, since targeting times for certain mechs (assaults especially) are simply to long. Since it then will be a weapon depending on other people's actions (and kindness) it will no longer be viable in solo queue, and a lot less usefull in group queue. PPC's will always do full damage, so will AC's , and gauss, etc. So lasers are a liability with this mechanic. A circomstantial weapon, much like LRM's are now. And good pilots/teams wont bring them. They will bring what ALWAYS works. PPC, ac, gauss.

I spend 2 years practising and I have become a decent laser pilot. It is what my gameplay has been centered around since day 1. Yesterday I tried ppc and ballistics (other then gauss) to try and get better at them in anticipation of this laser-lock-on mechanic killing lasers alltogether. I did allright I suppose. I didnt like them at all though. For the few hours I tried them, I didnt have much fun. Its simply not my game.

If they go through with implementing this laser lock on system, I will take a very long break from this game. Possibly quit eventually.

I would be fine if they just outright nerf them. Reduce the damage, max range. increase burn time or heat. whatever. Dont make my lasers damage depend on my teammates. Please.

Edited by BattleBunny, 06 November 2015 - 03:10 AM.


#19 Nik Reaper

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:14 AM

What would happen though, if they just went with a flat damage reduction ( 5-15% ) when you fire at an untargeted mech?
They seem to really want to tie info warfare in to damage and this seems like the simplest and unconvoluted way .. probly why it's not what they did X) .
And like I said reduce the delay to targeting to at most 0.5 with ecm, so some mechs would have it instant and it would be an needed advantage to such mechs as they could peek fire while doing full damage while getting reduced damage in return.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 06 November 2015 - 03:15 AM.


#20 Nehkrosis

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:35 AM

Guys we can always just mitigate some of the lock-on time nerfs, by bringing BAP, Advanced Sensors, etc.
We are now being forced to think about how we build our mechs.
If anything, things just got WAAAY more Battletech.
Also, consider that this in ONE of like 4 PTS builds.
if this one is unchanged, and the others are too, then the total changes to the game are GIGANTIC.
i would wait till we see how each PTS build works when overlaid on top of each other.
(reduced/tweaked weapon Quirks, Mobility tweaks/changes, Infowar changes/additions, and finally, the Armour additions)





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