92 replies to this topic

[Svaje]

I know that the Ares-conventions were mostly abandoned in the late succession wars and that much of the canon books and games do not mention them at all. However I think that mercenaries in particular would like to see these rules upheld.

If you read http://www.sarna.net...res_Conventions specifically #3 and #4

You see the possibility of honorable surrender and withdrawal from combat. If you build this surrender mechanism into the game you could reduce the impact of both salvage and loss of mechs. Primarily tough it would increase player choice.

Combined with hard rules for salvage it would give the player option and reason not to fight to the death every single combat. Possibly promoting more tactical behavior from the players.

A company that find itself out-gunned have the option to surrender and loose income but avoid large costs or try to out-smart and out-fight the heavy opponents for a larger reward.

Paying ransom for your mechs after a surrender instead of you getting a copy and your opponent salvaging a copy makes it much easier to balance the in-game economy as well.

Of course both excessive surrendering and not giving quarter should impact how a company is viewed by the rest of the world. Things to base this on could be: Did the company engage/hit all enemy units ? Did any pilot engage/hit a surrendered mech more than a second after it had surrendered ?

Merc-contracts could be phrased like: 500k C-bills for engaging the enemy, plus 800k C-bills for the objective, 50% of salvaged ammo/spare parts and ransom for defeated enemies.

I am all for a rather small reward for a completed contract so that missions like guard/raid the warehouse/convoy should be important for the company's economy. High prices on ammunition and amour should help this as well.

And last but not least, you could treat all forms of disconnects the same way. Rage-quit wont work, you still have to pay ransom for your mech even if you did not technically surrender/get killed.

[Threat Doc]

I think we've really beaten salvage to death. We don't even know for sure if it's going to be in the game and, if it's planned to be added, how it will be dealt with. I like the ideas you have, except for changing contracts. Command role folks should handle these and they should be negotiated per the original Mercenary's Handbook until 3055 rolls around and the contract changes from that book take effect. Having a great deal of knowledge about this, though the pre-3055 contracts were sort of harsh on mercenaries most of the time, well-negotiated contracts can be a real boon, and well-negotiated contracts that are fought well, if any fighting at all is done, and the post-3055 contracts, though you still have to be pretty careful with them, are a LOT more lucrative.

One thing all Merc Commanders need to remember about contracts, salvage, and fighting is that you should complete your objectives with the least amount of fighting possible, if you have to fight at all you need to outfox, or in my case outwolf, your opponents, get better and more accurate hits on them, and take as little damage as possible. If there's going to be an economy in this game, for sure, and it includes salvage, and commanders are going to have to put the most tactical work into their gaming, to keeping their people alive while completing all objectives, then it's absolutely necessary for Merc Commanders to pay attention to this.

[Kenyon Burguess]

a contract should be you making a deposit on the dropship transport.
base price
% salvage rights with chances for items and mechs


if you win you get your deposit money back plus the base pay. the % of salvage and some items to use/trade/sell

if you lose you get your deposit money back

if you get on planet and decide its a bad place to be and walk/run off a clearly marked border then you dont get your deposit back

if a player d/c's he'd just better hope its not in a fight as i'm really hoping theres a reconnect function for the game

rage quitters get punished if they run off the field thru the loss of the drop ship deposit. if they just yank the cord out of the wall they get punished cause odds are someone will find their mech and destroy them.

[Red Beard]

Kay Wolf, on 03 December 2011 - 05:41 PM, said:

We don't even know for sure if it's going to be in the game and, if it's planned to be added, how it will be dealt with.

I think we have at least a little more than just a vague idea of how Russ and Jordan want salvage to be handled. If you have a look at the 2009 IGN interview, you will be able to pick up on so of the basic thoughts that they have.

Quote

Salvage will take on more of a real meaning in the game, right down to a rudimentary level of "keep getting enough parts to keep fighting" rather than "I have another six chassis in my inventory to just throw on the market."

Also,

Quote

Something that we've discussed is maybe there's an opportunity to do something along the lines of the R2 moment within the Death Star trench run, where Luke says, "Patch up what you can, R2!" There's an opportunity to try to look for small automated repair techniques that we can employ, but we want to do it in a resource management kind of system, because that's what the MechWarrior/BattleTech system has always been about. There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's not just health lying around on the ground for you to pick it up. Just as many first-person shooters have moved away from that kind of style and have kind of tried to embrace a reality where health comes from slowing down and taking a break, we think there are opportunities to balance use of power, use of coolant, or removing yourself from the engagement for a moment that would allow you to do some measure of repair in-mission.

I have to say that I REALLY like this approach. It's a fresh departure from the stale old, "go by canon" attitude, and it also keeps the game from getting TOO arcadey. Kind of a happy median.

To me, the more complex these aspects of the game get, the more convoluted it can become, and therefore less fun to play.

[mithril coyote]

actually, BT canon backs up that last aspect pretty well. a mechs DI computer, the system that manages hardware in the mech, is so redundant and capable of rerouting that as long as a part is still in one peice, it can bring it back on line. however, any peice destroyed or otherwise fully non-functional (like for example a weapon that has been shot up and broken) can't be 'repaired' without a mechbay and replacement parts. but if the arms or legs stop working due ot damage, the Di computer can switch to alternate control lines to bring them back to use, albeit at a reduced ability. (example..destroying the mech's arm actuators, say it's 'elbow', would prevent the lower arm from moving, but with the DI computer's rewiring, the wrist and hand could still function.)

Edited by mithril coyote, 03 December 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Geist Null, on 03 December 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

a contract should be you making a deposit on the dropship transport.
base price
% salvage rights with chances for items and mechs...

Okay, I have to stop you right there, because I can tell that you know absolutely zippo about contracting, whether in the real world or in BattleTech, which are relatively close to real-world, at least for the contracting I've managed in the past, even moreso through Mercs Handbook '55. Stop, you're making my head hurt.

Red Beard, on 03 December 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

I think we have at least a little more than just a vague idea of how Russ and Jordan want salvage to be handled. If you have a look at the 2009 IGN interview, you will be able to pick up on so of the basic thoughts that they have.

The 2009 interview doesn't count, in this instance, and I'm not talking about salvage, I'm talking about contracting for Mercs. Salvage, yes, there will probably be salvage, but what about contracts for Mercs. If the game is going to be centered around Merc Corps, as our hosts have expressed once or twice, then will they also be dealing with Mercenary contracting? If they do, and they're sticking fairly close to BattleTech, then I'm looking forward to dealing with this.

Quote

I have to say that I REALLY like this approach. It's a fresh departure from the stale old, "go by canon" attitude, and it also keeps the game from getting TOO arcadey. Kind of a happy median.

To me, the more complex these aspects of the game get, the more convoluted it can become, and therefore less fun to play.

So, are you planning to be in a Command role, then? If not, then I can see why these things would be too complex for you. However, many types who like to be in Command, such as myself, enjoy doing the paperwork aspects, especially if Mercs want more money and less hassle, who are NOT playing Commanders.

[Kargush]

Svaje, on 03 December 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

And last but not least, you could treat all forms of disconnects the same way. Rage-quit wont work, you still have to pay ransom for your mech even if you did not technically surrender/get killed.

Considering the at times insane net connection I have, I'd rather not have that. "Dang, lost connection. There went my mech."

[minobu tetsuharu]

[in character]
You spheroids gave up on any pretense for honorable combat since Kerensky's children have returned.

[Sam Slade]

More 'cannon' gibberish... this is an MMO, you can't hit the pause button. If the game is going to be a 'sandbox' then fine, punish the ragequit/disconnects all you like; if it's not going to be full 'sandbox' however then salvage/ransom from other players is not going to fly.

If I pay money to play this game only to find I've got to pay pixel-cash when my ISP has a problem then it's off to the next MMO for me. That's the attitude you have to cater to; not everyone is a hardcore fan... in fact not many people are at all.

[Threat Doc]

This is not an MMO, the game universe this game is being built on is full of that canon gibberish and that's where it needs to stay, and you are dead wrong about not very many people on these forums being hardcore fans... I think you better start reading around. Perhaps a full 2/3rds of us who are actually writing, on here, are hardcore fans and BattleTech veterans; how many of the non-vocal hardcore vets are waiting in the wings?

PGI does not HAVE to cater to anything, Sam, they need to make the game in the way they're going to make the game and, with or without you, players will come out of the wood work for something that is actually relatively true -and I already know it's not going to be, perhaps, even 95% true to canon, because it simply shouldn't be- to the game it's based on.

Now, rather than being a negative nancy -to coin a very old term- why don't you try to get with the larger portion of us, here, and speak with positive tones and decent words. Have a nice day, schnookums, hehe. (shakes head)

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Nice one Kay Wolf

[Kargush]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

This is not an MMO, the game universe this game is being built on is full of that canon gibberish and that's where it needs to stay, and you are dead wrong about not very many people on these forums being hardcore fans... I think you better start reading around. Perhaps a full 2/3rds of us who are actually writing, on here, are hardcore fans and BattleTech veterans; how many of the non-vocal hardcore vets are waiting in the wings?

PGI does not HAVE to cater to anything, Sam, they need to make the game in the way they're going to make the game and, with or without you, players will come out of the wood work for something that is actually relatively true -and I already know it's not going to be, perhaps, even 95% true to canon, because it simply shouldn't be- to the game it's based on.

Now, rather than being a negative nancy -to coin a very old term- why don't you try to get with the larger portion of us, here, and speak with positive tones and decent words. Have a nice day, schnookums, hehe. (shakes head)

Even so, you're making two huge assumptions. First off is that "everyone" agrees. We don't. Just look at the threads. Sure, most of us are "hard-core" veterans, but we can't even agree on the colour of the sky most of the time. Second, you seem to think that just because this forum has a certain demographic, when the game is released said demographic will "make the jump" into the game, thus not accounting for curious souis who pop in to see what this "MechWarrior thing" is and what it does.

With that out of the way, I repeat my earlier post. I would hate to see disconnecting from the game being "punished" by loss of salvage rights or whatever. If my ISP takes a dump on me, I suddenly have to suffer for that in a game? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have the game not be F2P then.

[Kyll Long]

kargush, on 06 December 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Even so, you're making two huge assumptions. First off is that "everyone" agrees. We don't. Just look at the threads. Sure, most of us are "hard-core" veterans, but we can't even agree on the colour of the sky most of the time.

It's spelled color and it's light blue with a hint of chartreuse......


(Sorry couldn't resist)

[Threat Doc]

kargush, on 06 December 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Even so, you're making two huge assumptions. First off is that "everyone" agrees. We don't. Just look at the threads.

I did NOTHING of the sort, and had you actually read my post, in English, you would understand that making the assumption you just have is not correct, in the least. I said nowhere, and never would, that everyone agrees; I'm 40, and have quite a bit of understanding that people most assuredly do not agree, not even in self-styled focus groups.

Quote

Sure, most of us are "hard-core" veterans, but we can't even agree on the colour of the sky most of the time. Second, you seem to think that just because this forum has a certain demographic, when the game is released said demographic will "make the jump" into the game, thus not accounting for curious souis who pop in to see what this "MechWarrior thing" is and what it does.

I didn't make THAT assumption, either, I said there are a great many more veterans waiting to come out of the wood work when the game launches; I said ZERO about that being the LARGEST part of the community, though I BELIEVE, and I said so, that it will be.

You're absolutely right, there's not one of us, veteran or twitcher alike, who can agree on the color of the sky, but what many of us can agree on is that we want to play a fun approximation of BattleTech on-line, and our hosts have said as much that this is what they're trying to achieve. Their job is to NOT alienate anyone if they can help it, while my take is that if they build the game in a way that makes it as I just explained, a fun approximation of BattleTech on-line, then people will come out of the wood work. Alternately, if they cow-tow to the twitch community, the instant gratification kiddies who are used to getting their generally collective way, then yes they may have a decent enough revenue stream to pay off the game and, perhaps, get moving in yet another direction with their company, but that's as far as it will go; whereas, with the veterans, if the game is built to that fun approximation of BattleTech on-line, they will have paying customers for a decade or more to come. I said 'will'... that IS an assumption, and I think put in context with what I've said, will prove out to be a pretty accurate assumption by the time PGI is ready to close the servers for MWO.

Quote

With that out of the way, I repeat my earlier post. I would hate to see disconnecting from the game being "punished" by loss of salvage rights or whatever. If my ISP takes a dump on me, I suddenly have to suffer for that in a game? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have the game not be F2P then.

I can actually agree with that. Any penalty in that regard should be removed from the table of possible penalties until the internet is made perfect, there are never any signal drops, no disco's, because it would be unfair.

[Kyll Long]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

.

You're absolutely right, there's not one of us, veteran or twitcher alike, who can agree on the color of the sky, .

Note the spelling

[Mchawkeye]

Kyll Long, on 06 December 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

It's spelled color and it's light blue with a hint of chartreuse......


(Sorry couldn't resist)

Whoa there...lets not go making assumptions about spelling...according to me and the OED it can also be, quite rightly and accurately spelled COLOUR.

The language may be English in this forum, but it's far from being an American board.

[Kyll Long]

Mchawkeye, on 06 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Whoa there...lets not go making assumptions about spelling...according to me and the OED it can also be, quite rightly and accurately spelled COLOUR.

The language may be English in this forum, but it's far from being an American board.

Don't ya mean the language should be Scottish? (in reality i for one am very happy to see so many players about from the mainland and from Eastern Europe/Asia. It gives us a lot of hope for the future that BT has such a diverse following.)

[Mchawkeye]

Kyll Long, on 06 December 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Don't ya mean the language should be Scottish? (in reality i for one am very happy to see so many players about from the mainland and from Eastern Europe/Asia. It gives us a lot of hope for the future that BT has such a diverse following.)

Scottish? Aye, that'd be good, though this board would end up sounding like an Irvine Welsh novel...and the bad language filter would also create serious problems as most of the sentences would be obliterated....

[Red Beard]

A). Being a hardcore fan of BT does not imply that you love the stories and feel stro gly about canon. Stop assuming that hardcore fans make up some kind of majority regarding canon.

. Sam Slade for president.

C). This is a video game. Canon=gibberish.

Edited by Red Beard, 06 December 2011 - 05:45 PM.

[Red Beard]

God bless the Scottish.