38 replies to this topic

[TWIAFU]

IraqiWalker, on 06 November 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Simply put:
Because the solo players whine louder than 10 million 8 month old babies that haven't been fed in 6 hours.

Evil 2man is rofl stomping the solos!

I face evil 2man all the time on everydrop!

Evil 2man is farming solos!

Nerf 2man!

Limit solo queue to solo only!

2man are using teamwork and VOIP

Evil 2mans are 1% of the solo group population, they must be removed!

Group sizes limits must change! 2mans cannot be allowed, change them to minimum of 4!



Sound familiar?

[9thDeathscream]

NO NO NO

Solo Q is best its ever been now!

[Kushko]

People that remember the whining about groups in solo queue have to remember that it was up to 4 in an 8v8 match. That is very much different than 2 in a 12v12. And i personally think that duos in solo queue would do much more good for the game than harm (i personally dont bother trying to get friends to play mwo anymore because all that ends up happening is them getting utterly destroyed in group queue).

The only thing i would add is for PGI to make groups visible so people dont hop the paranoid train and blame groups for every loss they experience (and obviously a group of 2 on one team would have to be balanced by a group of 2 on the other team).

As for the "only let people with less than 25-50 games group in solo queue, since its a free to play game and creating new accounts is easy this would fix nothing (actually brake more things since more skilled players would be encouraged to make lower tier accounts to play with friends and make the new player experience even worse).

[Submersible Fox]

Let's look at the "arcade tank games", there are three of them, this example can apply to all of them but two in particular as it is more directly targeted at them:

The arcade tank games have random battles, let's use 15v15 as the standard, in these battles you have PRIMARILY single dropping players, with 2 and 3 man groups filtered in, usually matched against another respective sized group. In VERY rare cases where there is one, two person group, on each team of fifteen, will that group have a truly massive impact, and often then only if they're using the "overpowered" vehicles, and often only when they're somewhat above average players to begin with.

Now let's look at MWO, way back in the day, MWO allowed groups in regular queue, indeed there were large groups who would roll pubies, however, in cases with two or even three person groups, even in 8v8, they often had little more impact than any other players. Example, my two friends and I used to drive a squad of Stalkers together back in the day, all of us were somewhat above average but far from being "pros", playing against normal pubies, we still got smashed plenty, we had tons of games where the two or three kills we would get between us would be our team's only kills, and even on our best wins we couldn't get them without our team being decent too, and this was 3 people on a team of 8, roughly a third of the team, and we couldn't reliably swing a game in our favor just on our skill and coordination.

TAKING THESE FACTORS AND EXAMPLES AS CONSIDERATION, the current "solo" queue, should be made a, "random" queue, 2 person groups should be allowed on the condition they're matched against a 2 person group, a SINGLE 3 person group should be allowed per team and be matched against a 3 person group, three person groups should be required to bring no more than 2 mechs of any weight class.

Is there more room to do cheesy things if you allow group play? Yes. Is it better for the game though? Yes. It allows people to bring newbies into the game and help them improve, rather than throwing them into the tier 1 grinder of group queue and expecting them to play like a pro, just to be able to enjoy playing with a friend. In the tank games, groups of Tank Destroyers can cheese the poop out of a match with massive combined alpha strikes, marauding groups of mediums can be absolutely menacing, but these games don't have such an overwhelmingly loud opposition to small groups in regular matches, because they've seen clearly that despite the POTENTIAL for cheesing, in ACTUALITY it impacts the game so minimally on average that the average player doesn't have their average game adversely effected.

The only reason the idiots on this forum are so against small (two in particular) person groups, is because they either only ever played against large groups, or somehow assume that they'll be playing against some kind of super high skill kill squad, when the game would still match based on skill level, and they'd be playing people their own level and nothing really would have changed, except people could play and have fun with A FRIEND. Perhaps that there is a root cause to, the people who complain the loudest HAVE NO FRIENDS TO PLAY WITH, because they're angry joyless people who HAVE to have SOMETHING to whine about, and if they can't be happy NO ONE should be happy.

But that's just my opinion. Seriously, anyone that thinks small, balanced groups would ruin normal queue need to go play AW or WoT for a few hundred games and see how small groups perform in those, and realize that they would do a lot more good than harm in MWO. The way small groups are handled now is cancer, MWO has potential to be so good, but the idiotic handling of the queue system is one of the many things that drive off new players and keep it from growing: "I do okay on my own but whenever I play with a friend it takes forever to get a match and then we get ownzoned, this game isn't fun if I can't play it with my friends." Just saying, just saying.

[Sjorpha]

Solo Q duo = QQ

I pseudomathematically proved your idea to be bad, ggclose.

[Ezekeel666]

Submersible Fox, on 07 November 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Let's look at the "arcade tank games", there are three of them, this example can apply to all of them but two in particular as it is more directly targeted at them:

The arcade tank games have random battles, let's use 15v15 as the standard, in these battles you have PRIMARILY single dropping players, with 2 and 3 man groups filtered in, usually matched against another respective sized group. In VERY rare cases where there is one, two person group, on each team of fifteen, will that group have a truly massive impact, and often then only if they're using the "overpowered" vehicles, and often only when they're somewhat above average players to begin with.

Now let's look at MWO, way back in the day, MWO allowed groups in regular queue, indeed there were large groups who would roll pubies, however, in cases with two or even three person groups, even in 8v8, they often had little more impact than any other players. Example, my two friends and I used to drive a squad of Stalkers together back in the day, all of us were somewhat above average but far from being "pros", playing against normal pubies, we still got smashed plenty, we had tons of games where the two or three kills we would get between us would be our team's only kills, and even on our best wins we couldn't get them without our team being decent too, and this was 3 people on a team of 8, roughly a third of the team, and we couldn't reliably swing a game in our favor just on our skill and coordination.

TAKING THESE FACTORS AND EXAMPLES AS CONSIDERATION, the current "solo" queue, should be made a, "random" queue, 2 person groups should be allowed on the condition they're matched against a 2 person group, a SINGLE 3 person group should be allowed per team and be matched against a 3 person group, three person groups should be required to bring no more than 2 mechs of any weight class.

Is there more room to do cheesy things if you allow group play? Yes. Is it better for the game though? Yes. It allows people to bring newbies into the game and help them improve, rather than throwing them into the tier 1 grinder of group queue and expecting them to play like a pro, just to be able to enjoy playing with a friend. In the tank games, groups of Tank Destroyers can cheese the poop out of a match with massive combined alpha strikes, marauding groups of mediums can be absolutely menacing, but these games don't have such an overwhelmingly loud opposition to small groups in regular matches, because they've seen clearly that despite the POTENTIAL for cheesing, in ACTUALITY it impacts the game so minimally on average that the average player doesn't have their average game adversely effected.

The only reason the idiots on this forum are so against small (two in particular) person groups, is because they either only ever played against large groups, or somehow assume that they'll be playing against some kind of super high skill kill squad, when the game would still match based on skill level, and they'd be playing people their own level and nothing really would have changed, except people could play and have fun with A FRIEND. Perhaps that there is a root cause to, the people who complain the loudest HAVE NO FRIENDS TO PLAY WITH, because they're angry joyless people who HAVE to have SOMETHING to whine about, and if they can't be happy NO ONE should be happy.

But that's just my opinion. Seriously, anyone that thinks small, balanced groups would ruin normal queue need to go play AW or WoT for a few hundred games and see how small groups perform in those, and realize that they would do a lot more good than harm in MWO. The way small groups are handled now is cancer, MWO has potential to be so good, but the idiotic handling of the queue system is one of the many things that drive off new players and keep it from growing: "I do okay on my own but whenever I play with a friend it takes forever to get a match and then we get ownzoned, this game isn't fun if I can't play it with my friends." Just saying, just saying.

MWO cannot be compared to WoT due to the fact that MWO's population is relatively tiny which adversely effects efficiency of the match maker. Due to this balancing groups according to skill is already a challenge and does not work really well outside of peak times. Allowing 2-man premades would make it even harder to come up with two equally skilled groups. Most of the time one will end up with a competent 2-man premade on the one side carrying their team and shooting everything to bits while the other team gets a two duds who are not better than 2 random solo players.

If 2-man premades have the feeling they cannot compete in the group queue than this is a problem with the group queue which needs to be solved by modifying the group queue. Allowing them to use the solo queue and in the process ruining that too is not an answer.

Edited by Ezekeel666, 07 November 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Ezekeel666, on 07 November 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

If 2-man premades have the feeling they cannot compete in the group queue than this is a problem with the group queue which needs to be solved by modifying the group. Allowing them to use the solo queue and in the process ruining that too is not an answer.

That is because that 2man is playing alone, with themselves, and not part of the group as a whole. They are playing as a group of 2 vs 12. So yes, it is a problem with the group - they are not playing as one.

[TheSilken]

Make a 2 man queue then for only 2 mans. You could even make it so that it's 4v4 or 8v8 also to help cut down on the wait times.

[CDLord HHGD]

I think allowing duo's in the solo queue would be ok provided that the MM take into account unit affiliation and other logic to mitigate sync dropping.

I'd also like to see tested a division of the group queue where groups of 4 and less don't drop with groups of 5 or more.

[adamts01]

Yes to 2 man's in solo que. 2 out if 12 isn't default win like a 12 man is. I frequently use voip with awesome pilots in similar mechs in solo que and there's still only so much carrying 2 out if 12 can do.

But... Helping new players in to the game is BS. While it would be awesome grouping up with them they'd be matched with WAY better players and be better off solo.

My brother and I were paying customers. He quit completely when we stopped group dropping because of wait times. I can only play on the Oceanic server and after Australian prime time the wait is about 10-15 minutes for a light in solo que and I've waited over an hour in our 2 man using 2 lights. I solo now till I can find some unlimited Internet to download another game. I'll never quit but I'm done spending money.

[Clydewinder]

Talorien, on 06 November 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Allowing duos in solo queue shouldn't break it.

Currently it's almost impossible to introduce a new player to the game and play with them - group queue is brutal.

Something is wrong when friends would rather solo than play duo together!

If necessary, MM can balance by adding (say) up to two duos to each side in solo queue.

Thoughts?

I would allow it if the max tonnage between the 2 is 120. One player in an Atlas or Direwolf? Other player gets a Locust.

[Endost33L]

i oh-so-like this idea, i relly hope it gets tested, you can put certain rules on the mechs/tonnage and test them out so it wont break the game. Gaming buddies of myne would come to this game for sure if it was implemented.

[KHETTI]

2 mans in the solo queue? yeah go for it, anything that hastens the death of this game gets my vote.

[Zordicron]

Couple comments on this.....

I think it could be revisited. A loooooong time ago, I would have simply said no way. But things were different. For instance, it was 8 vs 8. Beyond that, most of the clamor at the time was to allow groups "up to 2" meaning, a team of 8 could be 4- 2 man teams.

I would be totally fine with a single 2 man team per 12 vs 12 team. If we allow more then that, a few things happen-

Group que gets even worse for MM. The small teams would basically abandon it, and we go back to the "elite 12 mans" crying, so hard, about how there is no one to play the game. I do not mean to open that can of worms(about why 12 mans have a hard time finding competition) here, because it would derail the whole thread, so lets stay away from that topic.... but, removing basically all the small groups from group MM is going to be bad for group que wait times.

Second, and I know people get all stupid about this, but: synch drops. Yes, they are real, though honestly I haven;t seen them blatently advertised in the faction forums or other some such since the current iteration of the group/solo game mode was put in. This has been quite a while now. However, if we allow multiple 2 man teams into a solo que match, 100% the epeen tryhards will begin attempting it again. A single 2 man in a team of 12? eh, could be effective, but won;t be able to turn the tide of a derp team. 2-3 synch dropped 2 mans? Back to that 4 mans in 8 vs 8 again, except there won;t be any way for PGI to track the metrics of the effects because it was still "random". I don;t want to start a mega debate about this tpic either, but the naysayers are full of ****. All one had to do to disprove the "almost impossible" crowd was go to a faction forum and find the most current "synch drop tuesdays" or whatever thread and link it. Again, times were different, and now days with the current solo/group ques it is mostly irrelevent. But thats the point, really, it would be possible to revert to it again if care isn;t taken.


So, with that mouthful of (hopefully not) thread derail bombs laid out:

I am 100% OK with a single 2 man being allowed into our 12 vs 12 solo que. 1 per team. Skill level to me is irrelevant, but I can only speak for tier 2 where games are generally won/lost by who has 2 or 3 #yolo people that give the enemy that small start to the snowball. A single 2 man team isn;t going to change the way the matches turn out, significantly, IMO. Now, tier 4-5? I don;t know. My bro plays in 4(not for much longer) and his play resembles a whole lot more of what we had with ELO matching. It is possible a coordinated 2 man could actually interfere with MM balance, if sufficiently prepared and using complimentary mechs etc. A NARC/TAG ECM LRM spotter and his lurmbarfer pal for example, could really make bank in the tiers of OP lurms.

Still think it would be worth doing. Still think the best way to get a new player hooked, is to get a friend to show them the ropes. Best way to encourage persistent, daily play is to allow a player to jump in, even with just one other pal, to laugh and shoot robbits without being subjected to epeen 12 mans.

All in all, the ultimate fix would be to have a population big enough to not need any changes because MM has it's pick of the litter every time. maybe Steam would fix that. I dunno.

Either way, it is highly unlikely Russ and crew will be willing to design/whatever a change like this until the rebalance stuff has been sorted. So for now, hang in there, and lets keep this topic alive and on the burner. It IS important to the health of the game to allow friends to play together without getting put into mega loss streak situations all the time.

[Moomtazz]

Leave solo queue alone.
Change group queue to allow groups of maximum 4 or 6 players.
Allow private lobbies to have 1 to 24 players per side

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

But not ALL solo players Mystere.

You are correct. And frankly, I myself do not mind having just a single queue. But, I don't want to take away from players who prefer playing solo ... just like I don't like people taking away from me the choice of not playing specific game modes.

[C E Dwyer]

Groups smaller than four should be in the solo queue, but people that don't want to play like a team, in a team game, scotched that in closed beta, which is why we have a solo and a group queue.

Besides you can't have it or teams of ten would never get a game.

[Talorien]

Cathy, on 07 November 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Besides you can't have it or teams of ten would never get a game.

Allowing one team of 2 on each side in solo queue would probably be okay.

Good point about 10-mans, guess it's okay for MM to have the option to pull some duos into group queue. For the MM to work it'd probably require that flexibility.

But it's great if duos are *sometimes* put in solo queue.

[Davers]

Submersible Fox, on 07 November 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Let's look at the "arcade tank games", there are three of them, this example can apply to all of them but two in particular as it is more directly targeted at them:

The arcade tank games have random battles, let's use 15v15 as the standard, in these battles you have PRIMARILY single dropping players, with 2 and 3 man groups filtered in, usually matched against another respective sized group. In VERY rare cases where there is one, two person group, on each team of fifteen, will that group have a truly massive impact, and often then only if they're using the "overpowered" vehicles, and often only when they're somewhat above average players to begin with.

Now let's look at MWO, way back in the day, MWO allowed groups in regular queue, indeed there were large groups who would roll pubies, however, in cases with two or even three person groups, even in 8v8, they often had little more impact than any other players. Example, my two friends and I used to drive a squad of Stalkers together back in the day, all of us were somewhat above average but far from being "pros", playing against normal pubies, we still got smashed plenty, we had tons of games where the two or three kills we would get between us would be our team's only kills, and even on our best wins we couldn't get them without our team being decent too, and this was 3 people on a team of 8, roughly a third of the team, and we couldn't reliably swing a game in our favor just on our skill and coordination.

TAKING THESE FACTORS AND EXAMPLES AS CONSIDERATION, the current "solo" queue, should be made a, "random" queue, 2 person groups should be allowed on the condition they're matched against a 2 person group, a SINGLE 3 person group should be allowed per team and be matched against a 3 person group, three person groups should be required to bring no more than 2 mechs of any weight class.

Is there more room to do cheesy things if you allow group play? Yes. Is it better for the game though? Yes. It allows people to bring newbies into the game and help them improve, rather than throwing them into the tier 1 grinder of group queue and expecting them to play like a pro, just to be able to enjoy playing with a friend. In the tank games, groups of Tank Destroyers can cheese the poop out of a match with massive combined alpha strikes, marauding groups of mediums can be absolutely menacing, but these games don't have such an overwhelmingly loud opposition to small groups in regular matches, because they've seen clearly that despite the POTENTIAL for cheesing, in ACTUALITY it impacts the game so minimally on average that the average player doesn't have their average game adversely effected.

The only reason the idiots on this forum are so against small (two in particular) person groups, is because they either only ever played against large groups, or somehow assume that they'll be playing against some kind of super high skill kill squad, when the game would still match based on skill level, and they'd be playing people their own level and nothing really would have changed, except people could play and have fun with A FRIEND. Perhaps that there is a root cause to, the people who complain the loudest HAVE NO FRIENDS TO PLAY WITH, because they're angry joyless people who HAVE to have SOMETHING to whine about, and if they can't be happy NO ONE should be happy.

But that's just my opinion. Seriously, anyone that thinks small, balanced groups would ruin normal queue need to go play AW or WoT for a few hundred games and see how small groups perform in those, and realize that they would do a lot more good than harm in MWO. The way small groups are handled now is cancer, MWO has potential to be so good, but the idiotic handling of the queue system is one of the many things that drive off new players and keep it from growing: "I do okay on my own but whenever I play with a friend it takes forever to get a match and then we get ownzoned, this game isn't fun if I can't play it with my friends." Just saying, just saying.

We KNOW that a 2 man group wins more often than solo players. PGI provided us that information. How does WoT avoid this problem would be the real question. My answer would be that it doesn't. They know that small groups will win more games than solo players, but they don't care. The solo player doesn't realize he is losing 5-9% more games than the 2 man so he isn't likely to put up a big fuss. Plus WoT is really invested in their whole "guild" thing with their CW (especially when they were able to sell gold ammo for it) and so having grouped players winning more often would seem like a good business decision.