16 replies to this topic

[Brethgar]

So here's an idea. You know the warning it gives when you put too many of one weapon on a mech? "Firing more than x weapons will cause excessive heat" or whatever. What if they were to hard cap how many of those weapons you could fire at one time? For example, the Nova Prime has 12 slots for CERMediums. What if you could only fire 6 at a time? Blackjack 1x, max it at 6 in one shot. Top Dog has 9 energy hard points. Hard cap how many can fire at once. No more ghost heat issue, reduces laser vomit. Same would go for large lasers and anything else that gets a warning for heat when you fire too many. CUAC/5s, IS AC/20s, etc.

What do you guys think?

[sycocys]

Because then people would cry that you eliminate their beloved alpha shot.

They'd also call it something scary like -ghost cap- so they could frighten people into thinking it was a mysterious force coming to steal their children's souls.

[Brethgar]

Exactly! No more AlphaWarrior Online. Is it really necessary to fire 12 small lasers all at once? Or 12 mediums? Or the Stalker 4N for example can boat 6 LLasers. Does it need a 54 pt alpha? Most fire 3 at a time from a Stalker from what I have seen, which reduces TTK from that mech.

Alpha Strike is supposed to be a last ditch "OMG, I'm gonna die" thing, not the thing you do every time you shoot.

[sycocys]

No, it doesn't need the alphas - but you will never convince the ravaging hordes of that.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, it doesn't need the alphas

battletech coined the term "alphastrike" so yes we do need the alphas. without them it doesnt feel like battletech. the problem isnt alphastrikes anyway, the problem is convergence.

in battletech when you fire 6 lasers, most of them hit different locations, and the damage is spread more or less evenly across the mech.

in MWO when you fire 6 lasers, most of the damage goes into the same location, with minimal damage spread.

what the game needs is some type of mechanic that spreads out damage more evenly. alphastrikes would no longer be problematic if the damage was spread out more.

Even something as simple as an outward damage transfer mechanic, that transfers say 25% of damage done to a torso location outward towards an undestroyed arm/leg, would be enough to bring TTK back to acceptable levels (although the way damage transfers would have to be different for each weight class, since lights dont want damage transferred to their legs, but assaults do).

Edited by Khobai, 07 November 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Kira Onime]

Brethgar, on 07 November 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Exactly! No more AlphaWarrior Online. Is it really necessary to fire 12 small lasers all at once? Or 12 mediums? Or the Stalker 4N for example can boat 6 LLasers. Does it need a 54 pt alpha? Most fire 3 at a time from a Stalker from what I have seen, which reduces TTK from that mech.

You do realize a 12SPL nova will overheat instantly if it alphas.. right?
12ML nova that alpha is a dead nova.

Stalkers can,t fire more than 3LL otherwise ghost heat kicks in.

[Khobai]

Ghost heat is way too liberal anyway if they intended for it to limit alphastrikes.

Letting players fire 6 ERML before ghost heat penalties kick in is absurd. Thats 42 damage. And can be easily paired with gauss on top of that for 57 damage.

A reasonable ghost heat limit on ERML would be 4 not 6.

[Nightmare1]

I say, forget using some kind of stupid capping system and go with sized hardpoints instead. Example: You want to run a bunch of ERLLs? Well, first make sure that you actually have hardpoints that can fit them!

As for the Nova firing 12 CERMLs, the OP does realize that you really only can fire six effectively, right? I mean, firing 12 is literally suicide; you detonate from overheating.

[Brethgar]

Yes, I am aware of what happens when a Nova fires all 12. It was just an example.

Anyway, it looks like no one likes the idea.

[Kaptain]

We need a true heat scale. Laser hard caps and ghost heat are not the issue.

[Khobai]

a stricter heat scale wouldnt solve anything. It would just shift the meta towards ballistics. and all the problems with convergence would still be there.

the best and ONLY solution is to fix convergence. everything else is just a bandaid.

[WarZ]

Brethgar, on 07 November 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

So here's an idea. You know the warning it gives when you put too many of one weapon on a mech? "Firing more than x weapons will cause excessive heat" or whatever. What if they were to hard cap how many of those weapons you could fire at one time? For example, the Nova Prime has 12 slots for CERMediums. What if you could only fire 6 at a time? Blackjack 1x, max it at 6 in one shot. Top Dog has 9 energy hard points. Hard cap how many can fire at once. No more ghost heat issue, reduces laser vomit. Same would go for large lasers and anything else that gets a warning for heat when you fire too many. CUAC/5s, IS AC/20s, etc.

What do you guys think?

On a couple of occassions I've suggested something like this.

Call it a "power requirement", off the cuff examples below:
- A mech / engine generates 100 power / second.
- A weapon requires "x" power to fire.
- Gauss might need 60 power to fire. Now you can't fire 2 at same time.
- PPC's might need 40 power to fire. Now you can only fire 2 at same time.
Etc, Etc.

Devs balance it out. This would be a terrific way to control alpha's in the game. And doesnt restrict builds with hard points. It would be another good way to work on clan balancing as well. Clans generate more heat, how bout require more power. You can boat less, etc.

And for the record the point and shoot we have now is a blessing. Convergeance, sounds way too much like "random cones of fire". A mechanic I absolutely detest in any shooter game. I was highly successful in WoT, but eventually got so sick of the cones and the unrealiable inconsistency of them, that I left, and never looked back. I would do the same for MWO, if they ever got near that point.

Edited by WarZ, 07 November 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@WarZ:

Great suggestion. Unfortunately, it will probably take too much resources to execute, as it is a fully new mechanic. Like it nonetheless.

@Khobai:

Not true that anything but convergence is a bandaid. I (among others) suggested a multi-point reticle and targeting system.

This would cause weapons mounted in different places to hit different points.

Reticle would look like this:

[oxXxo]

The "o"s are where the LA/RA weapons hit, respectively. The small "x"s are where the LT/RT weapons hit, respectively. The big "X" is where the CT weapons hit (and maybe missile are aimed, too).

No convergence needed.

BUT, we definitely don't need a laser cap. We DO need a heat scale that's lets people blow themselves up easier!

[Rhalgaln]

The easiest way to prevent Boating is putting a negative quirk on every single weapon.

If you use one its just a small negative quirk which can be countered by the positive chassis quirks of the Stock Loadout.
As soon as you start to adjust the Stock loadout and beginn boating the weapon quirks eat the chassis quirks and create a negative quirk on the boated weapon type.
This will prevent extreme boating and still leaves Stock "boats" untouched and functional.

As PGI could use the existing quirk system and just extend it to weapons this could be done easily.

[Khobai]

Quote

The easiest way to prevent Boating is putting a negative quirk on every single weapon.

boating isnt the problem though. convergence is.

its not a problem for someone to use 6 lasers if they hit different locations. its only a problem when they all hit the same location.

Quote

Not true that anything but convergence is a bandaid. I (among others) suggested a multi-point reticle and targeting system.

which is a fix to convergence. thats what I said.

the only way to fix the game is to implement some mechanic that combats convergence.

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Well i had a simple idea that could help,
(Convergence Idea To Lesson The Pin-Point-Alpha Problem!)

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@Khobai:

Ah! Misunderstood. :S

I thought you meant "fix the convergence mechanic to work and bring it back".

As it is not, we are in full agreement