224 replies to this topic

[FaithBombCRNA]

The issue isn't just that CW isn't fun for solo pugs, it's that it's not fun for ANYONE, unless you actually enjoy seal clubbing, which a lot of organized teams DO, even though they will shout to the rooftops that they don't.

[Tremendous Upside]

Man, I must be playing an entirely different game from some of you. This event was certainly one of the easier ones I've ever participated in. I pugged through it and went like 7-4 before completing all of the objectives. Only 1 game vs. a "good" organized 12-man. One game against an unorganized one -- and everything else was just a mishmash of small groups and puggies. I thoroughly enjoyed it... I guess it's just a your-mileage-may-vary thing like everything else in this game.

[Thejuggla]

I think mastered only mechs(or at the very least elited) should be a requirement for Cw matches. I believe that would greatly increase the quality of matches even on a pug team. It's not like its immpossible to beat a 12 man as pugs done it plenty of times.

[Bishop Steiner]

ValkyrieCRNA, on 15 November 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

The issue isn't just that CW isn't fun for solo pugs, it's that it's not fun for ANYONE, unless you actually enjoy seal clubbing, which a lot of organized teams DO, even though they will shout to the rooftops that they don't.

amen.

There may be a few Comp teams that don't like it, but most seem to enjoy crowing to the moon, ingame abou thow they clubbed you.

[Jman5]

I think it has little to do with premades and more to do with the skill gap. In general, a team with a sizable premade will have about 7-8 good scores and 4-5 scores that are either average or bad.

On a solo team it's inverted. You wind up with 4-5 good scores and 7-8 mediocre and bad scores.

I don't know how you can fix that other than creating some skill-based barrier to entry. However whether or not that's good for the already depopulated CW servers is another question.

Edited by Jman5, 15 November 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Elizander]

Given that there is no matchmaking in CW you will have to pray you get a decent team, but there's nothing in the system that prevents you from getting fresh T4s who go in with trial mechs for the shinies (and I don't blame them because the system lets them do this).

I do think it should be easier to create pug lances / companies. A tutorial which teaches players about what a lance is and what a company is and the basics of teamwork might help build up the proper mindset of new players that they will eventually have to find other people to form groups for better enjoyment of CW. I'd even go so far as to ask for 4-man lance trials with rewards at the academy to get people used to working together as a team. Not easy to squeeze this into the pipeline though, I'm sure. They can even make this 4 man lance trial a daily/weekly to hammer in the the team aspect of the game.

As for the discrepancy with player experiences, it could just be the luck of the die or the usual quality shift from Peak Hours vs Off Peak Hours for US/EU (SEA too small to matter, Asian marketing campaign, please~).

[Elkfire]

Jun Watarase, on 15 November 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

Competitive players dont enjoy free wins

Of course they do, winning is literally all they care about.

That's not me condemning them by the way, it's just what I've seen many self-identifying competitive players state in the various threads debating what "playing for fun" means. For them, winning is fun. Therefore, when they win they're having fun.

Edited by Elkfire, 15 November 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Zibmo]

Aresye Kerensky, on 15 November 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Don't blame the size of the groups in CW. Yesterday while playing with a 12man the team we ended up stomping the worst was.......another 12man o.O

That's right. The team of mostly solo players before, and the two teams of solo players after, all three of the solo teams did better, were more coordinated, and got more kills, than the organized 12man team.

Put together a team of 12 solo players from SJR, EmP, 228, KCom, Lord, or other competitive team, with no coordination aside from VOIP and in-game chat, and I GUARANTEE you that they will roll the majority of 12man teams out there, including better ones like MS.

No, the problem resides in solo players taking 4 trial mechs, not listening to comms, and being bags of useless trash just trying to get their points and leave early. If I can carry with only 2 owned mechs that are only basic'd, and 2 trial mechs that are complete garbage, then it isn't the mech or the coordination that's the problem, but rather the fact that so many solo players in CW are bad.

You have amply demonstrated just how awesome you believe yourself to be. I would suggest that you stop telling others that they are "bags of useless trash" because it doesn't help your case or your reputation.

Those "bags of useless trash" are only polluting your pristine kiddy pool because there is an event attached and PGI is trying -desperately- to get said "bags" to participate in CW. People like you are part of the reason they are worse off every attempt they make. Feel proud. Puff your chest out.

[Novakaine]

Soldier up and Enlist!

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 15 November 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Back when CW was launched, this problem became immediately apparent - casuals and PUG's were being stomped over and over by coordinated 12-mans. Those of us who understand the problems this would create rightly protested this poor design and asked for some level of match-making. Unfortunately, we were shouted down by an endless clown-car full of try-hards who felt that stomps and seal-clubbing were all a "vital part of the high-skill CW environment." This was followed up with expectations that "everyone" would just magic up a whole pile of new friends to form a unit or have some strange desire to join the unit that just stomped them (while often loudly commenting on how "sucky noobs should stay out of CW.") The parting shot was, of course, "git gud or git rekted."

None of the dim-bulbs realized that most players didn't "git gud or git rekted" - they simply decided to stop playing CW and no longer spent any time trying to get the format fixed because they were tired of being shouted down about it. PGI, naturally, saw no reason to correct the lack of match-making at that point since the format's small surviving player base seemed fine with it. Only now that there's any incentive for casuals and PUG's to again tip-toe back into CW do we again see the problems the format has brought to light. Too bad nothing will be done about it.

I keep hearing this "needs an MM" argument and it's just faulty logic repeated.

How do you match premades or even skill if you don't have numbers?

Isn't the recent "consolidation" by the voting system even a hint of the population problem? If you can't find enough people for a mode (let alone Tiers), you start running into issues with waiting and having to put in "release valves" as PGI has done before... allowing for looser made matches (aka "great skill imbalance").

What I consistently see on many bad opponents are in Trial Mechs (for one reason or another) or taking totally terrible builds (LRM Atlases, STD engine Firestarters... there's too many bad builds that show up)... that's even BEFORE we talk about premades.

Most of this has to do with a non-existent NPE, but that's compounded by not understanding... or in the worst case... not willing to work as a team.

Back to the original problem... how you do address skill with an MM when there's noone (or very few) there populating in the first place? Even if you fix that... the skill disparity is so great, it's always somehow a convenient excuse to blame premades for wanting to work together to succeed. That has to stop before this game ever actually grows.

[PyckenZot]

The Rasalhague hub runs coordinated drops for anyone in the faction, I can only presume the others do as well. How to enjoy figthing 12-mans and not be a PUG?
Easy,

Don't be a PUG.

Seek your faction chat for groups,...

[Kaitto]

It's the first time I've enjoyed CW so much, it's because of this event. There's bunch of pugs going around and I've only ever fought MS once, it wasn't fun but the rest were always pugs vs pugs and my team won all those times. Some were completely steamrolled others were close and fun matches. We should have more events like this to promote pugs playing against eachother in CW.

[Riscy]

Kaitto, on 15 November 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

It's the first time I've enjoyed CW so much, it's because of this event. There's bunch of pugs going around and I've only ever fought MS once, it wasn't fun but the rest were always pugs vs pugs and my team won all those times. Some were completely steamrolled others were close and fun matches. We should have more events like this to promote pugs playing against eachother in CW.

I would have to agree. This has been my favourite CW experience so far and it was because it was PUG v PUG or against 4 man groups.

I am playing as a clanner so it would be interesting if IS pugs had bad experiences or did clanner pugs find it an issue too.

I played at peak time in Australia so experiences might be different for other timezones.

[Kira Onime]

Dropped in CW for a game for this event. Ended up against one of those "scary" premades.

heh

Edited by Kira Onime, 15 November 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[Davegt27]

Aresye Kerensky, on 15 November 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Don't blame the size of the groups in CW. Yesterday while playing with a 12man the team we ended up stomping the worst was.......another 12man o.O

That's right. The team of mostly solo players before, and the two teams of solo players after, all three of the solo teams did better, were more coordinated, and got more kills, than the organized 12man team.

Put together a team of 12 solo players from SJR, EmP, 228, KCom, Lord, or other competitive team, with no coordination aside from VOIP and in-game chat, and I GUARANTEE you that they will roll the majority of 12man teams out there, including better ones like MS.

No, the problem resides in solo players taking 4 trial mechs, not listening to comms, and being bags of useless trash just trying to get their points and leave early. If I can carry with only 2 owned mechs that are only basic'd, and 2 trial mechs that are complete garbage, then it isn't the mech or the coordination that's the problem, but rather the fact that so many solo players in CW are bad.

I want to see the video on this one
A mixed group from top teams vs A good IS 12 man team

[Night Thastus]

Praise be Phase III!

[hybrid black]

Jun Watarase, on 15 November 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

>you are not allowed to enjoy an event unless you spend time organizing a group with 11 other highly skilled players

This sounds like a great idea! I'm sure it will appeal to the majority of players out there. What could possibly go wrong?

OMG this have never been a better time to say this.........****clears throat **** sorry i just need a minute this is just to good......................
...........
.......
.....
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MAD YOUR BAD........

[TexAce]

playing all night and TBH I didnt encounter even one 12 man group. Being dropped against mixed groups the whole time. Matches were never heavily lopsided.

[Brethgar]

The problems I ran into this weekend in CW were mostly due to attitude and an unwillingness to cooperate.

People were not on voip.
Some people have their voip turned off for whatever reason and this is bad for CW. If you can't hear whoever is brave enough to step up and try to lead, then why did you even show up?
I did have one match where no one spoke or even typed in chat and we just smoked the other team. Everyone just knew what they were doing and covered eachother without speaking a word. This is an extremely rare scenario.

People didn't listen to directions given.
At the beginning of matches I almost always say to bring heavies and assaults first. This sets the tone of the match by bringing heavy firepower and tankiness first. Yet I would always have someone in a cheetah or adder for their first drop. Then at the end when everyone else is dead or near so, I would see someone bring out a gargoyle or a dire as their last mech. What are these people thinking?
At times I would try to give direction over voip and people just don't pay attention or think I am full of bull.
"Gather up outside the gate after you die"
"Don't trickle in one by one"
"Wait for the rest of the group, don't go in"
"DON'T GO IN"
"Push around the corner!" This usually results in me pushing the corner and dying very alone.
"Everyone go left gate" This almost inevitably has the guy in the kit fox as his first mech headed off in the other direction.

Anyway, I am sure that a lot of you have experienced this kind of thing on many occasions, but the thing that probably irked me most in CW this weekend was when I was trying to give some advice about the game mode and got a response saying "relax, this game was lost before we even dropped." Well, with attitudes like that, it certainly is.

I have been stomped by premades as a pug. I have also stomped premades with pugs. It mostly depends on communication and organization. Help the other 11 guys on your team, friends or random bodies. Be more than a selfish ... you get the idea.

[Zibmo]

Brethgar, on 15 November 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

The problems I ran into this weekend in CW were mostly due to attitude and an unwillingness to cooperate.

People were not on voip.
Some people have their voip turned off for whatever reason and this is bad for CW. If you can't hear whoever is brave enough to step up and try to lead, then why did you even show up?
.

I keep mine on, but the amount of chest thumping screaming morons on VOIP lately makes me wish I hadn't. It's hard to convince people to even leave it on when all they hear is denigration and, frankly, filth on it.

Not making excuses, but you asked.