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Vindicator Problems Overall, Especially Variant 1Aa

Vindicator

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#1 Sickening Spying Scheming Eunuch

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 05:27 PM

So, explain me your logic behind that. Vindicator is one of the most underpowered and underused mechs in this game. The goal of rebalance is to make mechs of the same chassis as equal as possible. Solution? Lets nerf Vindicators even more. Yeah! Sounds like a good plan!

For me, new vindicator quirks are like a joke. But i'm not blaming you, to know how every mech works, and how it looks in comparison to another chassis, you would need to spend some time playing your own game. There is a huge difference between comparing mechs on paper and looking how it works in practic. What I'm going to do is giving you a constructive opinion of someone, who is familiar with those problems and see this mech's flaws every day (yeah, i'm a tryhard and I'm trying to make any use out of Vindicator)

Contradiction between role and construction of Vindicator is the only problem of this mech.
Vindicator is supposed to use PPC, which is a moreless a sniper gun, yet energy hardpoints of Vindicators are really really low. To simply shoot to the enemy, Vindicator pilot needs to leave it's terrain cover, and expose more than half of his mech's body to enemy fire. Unless you want to shoot at the ground, you need to shoot at your enemy from above exposing your whole body. If you want to shoot at your enemy standing at the higher ground, that means you are not utilizing your PPC range. As a mech with arms closely clutched to it's torso, you are not able to shoot exposing only your armed hand.

All those factors lead to the conclusion that Vindicator have no good way of defending itself when firing at the enemy. PPC is a heavy weapon, forcing Vindicator to use XL engines, so running with STD engine and having whole one side of your mech serving you just as a shield is not an option. Regardless, if you would like to do that, your mech would be too slow and clunky to hide from enemy fire fast enough. Another reason, why you are not able to do that is the size of vindicator's hand without any weapon, it's too slim and small to cover it's vital parts, when Vindicator try to use it as a shield.

The only niche of Vindicators then is poptarting, jumping high with your jetpacks, and shooting the enemy when falling down, hoping you were not exposed long enough to be hit by them. It works on paper, in practice you can do this only once, before you get gangbanged by the spam of enemy weaponry. Yeah, by the spam, because when you jump high, you reveal your position not to one enemy, but to whole enemy team.

This isn't a thing you can fix easily, Vindicator's flaws are in it's design. Giving Vindicator 1AA higher velocity of PPC is a good move, while for a number of reasons taking energy cooldown makes no sense. Vindicator-1AA have only 2 weapons (2xPPC), therefore it needs a better cooldown to be able to make his only trick a few times, before he will be forced to move away from his current position, and find another place to pop. Without a lower cooldown, it can not protect itself from light mechs, due to PPC minimal range of fire. Notice, that lower cooldown equals more heat generation, so Vindicator need to make a break after a few shoots anyway, and time to cool the heat is a great time for relocating your position.

Also, Vindicator doesn't need buffs for it's arms and legs, it needs more armor for it's side and central torso, due to the fact those parts are exposed most of the time (when you jump). It have higher priority than making it's legs more durable, so you could also transfer leg buffs into torso structure, Vindicator would only gain out of it. In real game, you won't hurt your legs unless you will be jumping to high and jumping too high means leaving the cover for Vindicator, while leaving the cover for too long equals death for this mech.

What could make Vindicator able to compete with other mechs of it's weight is the ability to fly up faster using it's jetpacks, and to fall down faster, to prevent being hit by enemy team. Since you haven't touched that aspect of the game, using current quirks, All Vindicators need a HUGE deceleration boost. Yes, I'm talking only about deceleration boost, because it needs to be able to move back to it's cover, not the higher mobility overall.

Vindicator lacks slots to become a brawler mech (which would match his low hardpoints), Enforcer's bodytype and hardpoint placement is pretty much the same, however due to the lower number of hardpoints, the only niche Vindicator can fill is being a popping, jetpack sniper. And to be effective in that role, it needs following changes:
  • - Giving Vindicator back his energy cooldown quirks
  • - Making Vindicator central torso and side torsos more durable, (if thats the case, quirks of arm and leg armor can be as well removed, those do not give Vindicator any real profits)
  • - Giving Vindicator more Deceleration, like for example VND-1X have

Edited by KruczekIIV, 16 November 2015 - 05:33 PM.


#2 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 09:45 PM

View PostKruczekIIV, on 16 November 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

  • - Making Vindicator central torso and side torsos more durable, (if thats the case, quirks of arm and leg armor can be as well removed, those do not give Vindicator any real profits)

No, it needs the arm buffs, the Vindi can spread damage to the arms really easy and is a nice feature, but it does need torso buffs, not sure why the Blackjack got buffs all around while this didn't.

Cooldown isn't as big of a deal as heat generation is because heat generation quirks can allow you to forego DHS for more speed, at least on the 1AA. If anything the 1R should be the variant that can spam PPC volleys. Decel would be cool but ultimately not that important, the 1X generally needs it more since it can't abuse many JJs nor can it be asymmetric.

If anything, the only variant that should really have missile quirks is the SIB.

#3 Prof RJ Gumby

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:40 AM

View PostKruczekIIV, on 16 November 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

snip


Agree in general, but:
- arm buffs are needed too. Hell, vindi needs all the help it can get.
- live 1AA is a good jump sniper, only you need to relocate every 1-2 shots, and don't jump only vertically, but i.e. jump between covers. Need some practice, but can work.

1AA is kinda worse in the PTS, skill nerfs hurt him a lot, it was already barely agile enough for a jump sniper (relocation I mentioned above is crucial), now it's hard to quickly prepare for a new jump or jump out of danger (min. range of ppcs make it a terrible brawler)

1R and 1X are in a terrible place now. They were already too sluggish, now they are undergunned snails.

3 things are needed to help the vindis:
1. Resize - they are too big, the ppc arm could get to be made little shorter (less low) too
2. Engine cap raise - at least to 295 for all of them
3. Large mobility quirks. - they need to be at least as agile as 1AA is now live.
Without those, even Dragon 1N kind of quirks won't make them actually decent.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 17 November 2015 - 08:42 AM.


#4 Sickening Spying Scheming Eunuch

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:42 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 16 November 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Cooldown isn't as big of a deal as heat generation is because heat generation quirks can allow you to forego DHS for more speed, at least on the 1AA. If anything the 1R should be the variant that can spam PPC volleys.

Well, I ulitmately agree, less heat would allow Vindicator to cool off faster while relocating, however regardless of buffs direction, both cooldown or heat generation reduction would be helpful for this mech.

View PostProf RJ Gumby, on 17 November 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

3 things are needed to help the vindis:
1. Resize - they are too big, the ppc arm could get to be made little shorter (less low) too
2. Engine cap raise - at least to 295 for all of them
3. Large mobility quirks. - they need to be at least as agile as 1AA is now live.
Without those, even Dragon 1N kind of quirks won't make them actually decent.

Those changes would also be helpful to Vindicator, to make this mech more usable, however I want to point that by doing what you propose Vindicator would be exact copy of Panther, which currently both at PTS4 and live already do the same thing Vindicators do, but it's weight lesser and due to the size and speed of Panther, it does it better than Vindicator. Bodytypes and hitboxes are similiar, loadout is roughly the same, playstyle is also the same.

The only difference between the two is the fact that Panthers heat up a bit faster than Vindicators. This is the main problem. There is a mech with a much lesser wieght, doing the same thing you do, and doing it more efficient. The solution then should be making a mech with a bigger tonnage a mech with bigger firepower (for it is already slower and more agile, and due to its structure it can not be some kind of a brawly tanky version of Panther, if you want a brawler with similiar bodytype you are going to pick Enforcer with hardpoints allowing you for a build like that).

This means, what Vindicator needs is more cooldown or less heat generation. Regardless which one of those would be buffed, Vindicator is going to hit harder.

#5 Prof RJ Gumby

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:38 AM

In a way you're right, but Vindis are already basically bigger, slower, more armored panthers. Might as well be better at it.

I spend quite a lot of time tinkering with 3 c-bill vindis, experimenting with many different loadouts etc. The only thing I got actually working decently was the 1AA poptarter, and one rather strange 1R mpl build that was a hit-or-miss depending on the match. The point that stands is - they are not agile enough, only the 1AA's agility is acceptable on the live server. Tried the 1AA in the PTS4 and it got a lot worse in poptarting, to a point it's more of a detriment to the team than an asset. the MPL 1R experiment got so sluggish using it is pointless too.

#6 Sickening Spying Scheming Eunuch

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 09:02 AM

Yeah, the good example of Vindicator's obsoleteness is Community Warfare, where you won't even see hipsters using this mech. If anyone wants to put a ppc poptart into his or her dropdeck, they are going to use 35 ton Panther, letting them to put heavier mechs for the rest of empty slots.

View PostTahribator, on 17 November 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

Basically extinct on the battlefield. I swear someone at PGI still thinks they're good.

I guess PGI is able to check how many people use different kinds of mechs in matches. If that's so, you have a legit evidence suggesting you to buff the ones which are the least picked for games. Those are not being picked not without a reason, those aren't picked because those do not work.

#7 Jive Korsan

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 12:22 PM

Poor vindicator gets no love. Can't remember the last time I saw one. I love the look and wanna play them but they are just so bad.





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