84 replies to this topic

[Anarcho]

Lots of tears were spilled about it, I still didn't see ine good argument to put it down though, only the usual "it different and I dont like" kind of thing...

Many of the people complaining about it didnt even test it on PTS...
So please, show me why that was a bad idea?

Pros:
- Make people press R more often, helping the team with info.
-Breaks the meta alpha laser vomit
-Make sniper weapons more relevant
-Makes scout mechs usefull (snipering with laser? Better have someone tgt it for you)
-Doesnt require PGI to rework the whole thing to develop convergence or change all the weapons atributes.
-Makes the game more dynamic with infotech playing a strong part in it and requiring more skill to tgt the right mech before firing


Cons:
- Hear the lamentation of the meta widows...

So please, help me find more cons to this list

[FupDup]

Cons:
-Counter-intuitive/convoluted
-Very weird (trippin' acid kind of weird)
-Indiscriminate (e.g. most of the weapons affected didn't deserve it)
-Too harsh (162m IS Medium Lasers?)
-Doesn't affect other weapon types (e.g. meta shift to projectiles)

[Juodas Varnas]

I thought it was a pretty decent idea.
They just needed it to only affect the "maximum range" and not "optimum range".

Just my 2 centurions.

[Cementi]

FupDup, on 17 November 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Cons:
-Counter-intuitive/convoluted
-Very weird (trippin' acid kind of weird)
-Indiscriminate (e.g. most of the weapons affected didn't deserve it)
-Too harsh (162m IS Medium Lasers?)
-Doesn't affect other weapon types (e.g. meta shift to projectiles)

You should be locking regardless, so really not counter-intuitive.

No more weird than IS mechs with quirks augmenting a the range of a piece of equpment that is the same regardless of what mech it is on.

All lasers outperform their ballistic counterparts so it indescrimatly nerfs all the over performers.

I will give you this last one.....maybe. Considering that ballistics are ammo based though any advantage they have is limited.

[Sandpit]

Anarcho, on 17 November 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

So please, show me why that was a bad idea?

Because you're taking the only direct fire weapon system that counters ballistics and giving it a major disadvantage.

I've been using LL boats since just about CB. Trust me when I say using a "laser vomit" mech is much more difficult than most think. You have to maintain heat balance, maintain pinpoint on one area of the enemy mech, you don't get to do all of your damage to one pinpoint area because your damage is spread out over the duration of your firing sequence.

There is absolutely no reason I can possibly see to require lasers to have a lock. It makes zero sense to make the one and only direct fire ballistics counter a change like this.

It's unintuitive, it creates unneeded complications, increases an already steep learning curve for new players, creates issues with other balancing mechanics (heat and such. If you're going to nerf it in this manner then you really need to look at all o fthe other balancing mechanics and make sure it's not over nerfed now and back to "lasers suck status"), establishes a distinct disadvantage to lasers versus every other direct-fire weapon in the game, and above all else (in my opinion) is just trying to find the most complicated solution to an issue that could much more easily be solved by adjusting a few numbers in heat, duration, etc. mechanics.

[Davegt27]

I have been thinking about this subject
Don't get me wrong I did not play PTS (been away from the game all month)

But here is my point Target Information gathering
For TIG to work all weapons have to come under the target info gathering umbrella

You can't or shouldn't have any exempt weapons

I feel PGI does not do a good job explaining the why's for some of there ideas
Another mistake would be the "make" statement the OP put down

"Make people press R" would be the wrong approch

I would introduce optimal beam focusing concept
In a nutshell with "R lock on" or (target info gathering) the weapons produce max power and efficiency
Without the lock the weapons still work but are less effective
Power is the same but heat goes way up and burn time is greater also rate of fire slower

To recap laser lock and target info gathering are not bad ideas just need the right approch

[STEF_]

Anarcho, on 17 November 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

So please, show me why that was a bad idea?

Big nerf to peek and hide tactic.
So, yes, it was a bad idea.

[Gas Guzzler]

All the people who say " You just have to press R" are either really clueless or are purposefully omitting important details.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Make it only affect ERLL / LL / maybe even LPL - fixed? Small / Meds don't change, ballistics & PPCs can be used to snipe with a degree of aim & skill.

[TamCoan]

I have to agree with the cons listed above. I am honestly more annoyed with the walls of gauss/uac5s right now, I find it kind of nice when I get to fight a laser boat.

While I like the idea of infowar, tagging on the laser nerfs on top of that just felt like it was over the top.

[WarHippy]

Plenty was said while it was being tested no real reason to talk about it anymore. It being removed from the table is one of the few things I am happy about with PGI currently so lets just move on from this truly stupid idea and never come back to it.

[Sarlic]

Is this thread for real?

[cSand]

I'd prefer a mechanic that required a lock for convergence at the target, otherwise everything just converge at it's optimal range

[Sarlic]

I'm 'anti-meta' and i even found how poor thought out idea that was. It was rediculous.

Edited by Sarlic, 17 November 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Juodas Varnas, on 17 November 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

I thought it was a pretty decent idea.
They just needed it to only affect the "maximum range" and not "optimum range".

Just my 2 centurions.

well, taht and to simply require you to press R, not have to wait for the paper doll to populate, since it was quite literally acting as a rangefinder for focus, nothing more.

[MechaBattler]

FupDup, on 17 November 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Cons:
-Counter-intuitive/convoluted
-Very weird (trippin' acid kind of weird)
-Indiscriminate (e.g. most of the weapons affected didn't deserve it)
-Too harsh (162m IS Medium Lasers?)
-Doesn't affect other weapon types (e.g. meta shift to projectiles)

I don't think it was weird or convoluted. Lock on to get max range. That's not hard mechanic to get your head around. Lasers need to be nerfed. I do think they should have made it scale down with the type of lasers though. And perhaps started with 50% reduction, instead of 60%.

Something like
50% Er-Large lasers
45% All other Large lasers
40% Er-Medium lasers
35% All other medium lasers
30% Er-Small lasers
25% All other small lasers.

Edited by MechaBattler, 17 November 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Sandpit]

Pinpoint never has and never will be the issue. Instant convergence of multiple weapons from multiple firing points on the mech (shoulders, arms, hands, head, etc.) hitting the exact same spot instantaneously always has been and always will be the issue.

They've tried everything from nerfs to buffs to clucnky mechanical interfaces. It's never worked.

There's a reason for that.
(X) <--- reticle instantaneously aligns every weapon to the exact same pinpoint area every time regardless of weapon positioning, movement modifiers, etc.

The TT game simulated this by adding modifiers to the base "to hit" number based on any number of factors such as target movement speed, terrain, shooter movement speed, heat, etc. In MWO you have none of that. You have a simplistic generic shooter mechanic.

Each arm and shoulder should have its own reticle that moves at a certain rate to align to the targeting system. The head should have the smallest time lapse in swinging around, the shoulders the second fastest, and the arms/hands the third since the more articulation and range of movement you have, the more time it takes that weapon to swing into place.

Then add modifiers based on the weapons size. AC20 does not articulate (just like a tank turret doesn't swing around as fast as a man with a .50 cal on a swivel) as fast as an MG. Therefore there's a slight delay in that weapon's reticle swinging into exact location for pinpoint accuracy.

This doesn't mean you make it an extreme adjustment that allows for completely missed shots based purely on this mechanic but it does mean that you can completely do away with ghost heat and that if you fire instantaneously as you swing your heavy mech or assault mech around a corner at full speed with nothing but big bore weapons there's a slight delay and it might result in hitting an arm instead of a specific torso unless you give the targeting system a split second to catch up.

No, more than one reticle is not "too hard". Any player who runs any kind of missile system already has two separate reticles. You're simply talking about adding in 1-2 reticles to the base of it. One for each arm and side torso (that's 2 total) and one for head and CT (that's one) so that's a total of 3 reticles. That's not excessive and far more intuitive than trying to figure out a complicated and lazy mechanic like ghost heat.

Let me also state I'm not "against" ghost heat. It does what it was intended to do, I just feel there are better ways to achieve the same effect and this is one of them.

[Valkran]

"This feature has been pulled from further investigation and will not go into any future builds. It is a dead subject."

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 17 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't think it was weird or convoluted. Lock on to get max range. That's not hard mechanic to get your head around.

To better explain it, it isn't the type of mechanic that a player would "expect" the game to have. Why would my weaponry suddenly change in combat performance when I acquire a red dorito versus when I'm still waiting for that dorito to appear?

It's something that nobody really asked for, either.

It's sort of like how people would expect to generate 30 heat when they fire 3 weapons that each deal 10 heat, but there's a secret source that makes it much more than 3x10 heat...

MechaBattler, on 17 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Lasers need to be nerfed.

The end doesn't instantly justify the means.

Also, the majority of lasers are fine and a few (e.g. IS SL) are actually poop. The only ones that can qualify as OP are some of them on the Clan side (e.g. CERML and CLPL being the most drastic).

MechaBattler, on 17 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

I do think they should have made it scale down with the type of lasers though. And perhaps started with 50% reduction, instead of 60%.

You're reading the reduction wrong. In this case, 50% would actually be a nerf. The math is that you don't subtract X%, you just take X% of the whole. For example, 60% of 270 meters is 162 meters. 50% of 270 meters is 135 meters.

Edited by FupDup, 17 November 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[ChronoBear]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 November 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

Big nerf to peek and hide tactic.
So, yes, it was a bad idea.

Thank you for the laugh. So someone can't peek over a hill for a second, alpha and run away as effective?

Let me get my tissues