61 replies to this topic

[CSG Gunslinger]

Word of Blake? Not preferable but you work with what you have.

ComStar/ComGuard/ROM or other non-religiously fanatical sub unit? of course.

I don't role play so the "WoB killed the story line" bit doesn't really matter to me, I've been a member of CSG since Mechwarrior 3 so there's a bit of an incentive for me. Unfortunately, it looks like PGI is going to own ComStar as a cannon unit name.

eta: as I remember it, ComStar/ComGuard got pretty much wiped out fighting against WoB as the story goes.

Edited by CSG Gunslinger, 10 July 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

No. I do not like Wobbly eggs and spam, I do not like Word of Blake Sam-I-Am.

[Monsoon]

In regards to given a kick to a franchise like how the Clan Invasion was a kick back in the 90's is one thing, but to jump generations forward and kill off anything or anyone familiar is suicide. Battletech and Forgotten Realms have both done this and they were kisses of death. BT is in the process of recovering (hopefully), not sure how many more years it'll probably take for FR.

In both cases, I went from decades of faithfully read their novels to trying out the new setting regardless of my misgivings only to realize my feelings were right about both franchises.

I understand kicking the hornet's nest to see what happens, but you also need to think past that.

[Damascas]

Strum Wealh, on 10 July 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

As I understand it, the survivors of the Wolverines met up with ComStar in the mid-to-late 2800s and formed a cabal called "The Blood", which was then sequestered to a set of hidden worlds called "The Five"/"The Hidden" to develop tech to combat the Clans should an invasion occur.
However, knowledge of The Five was lost to ComStar with Myndo Waterly's death and the ComStar/Wob schism, and said anti-Clan tech ultimately becoming what was used by the WoB during the Jihad.

-----

And, to answer the question, it is highly unlikely that I would choose to join a WoB faction.

That is much of the theory though there is very little data to support it and is still only one of a handful of theories we have about the wolverines from Comstar and WoB.

[Joe Mallad]

Damascas, on 10 July 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

That is much of the theory though there is very little data to support it and is still only one of a handful of theories we have about the wolverines from Comstar and WoB.

well... just maybe with the license now supported by PG and backed by one of the founding fathers of the Universe, we could very well get some new info on this matter at some point.

[Damascas]

Yoseful Mallad, on 10 July 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

well... just maybe with the license now supported by PG and backed by one of the founding fathers of the Universe, we could very well get some new info on this matter at some point.

I hope so, I want to fight as a Wolverine in a setting other than Klondike.


Forever

Edited by Damascas, 10 July 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Monsoon, on 10 July 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

In regards to given a kick to a franchise like how the Clan Invasion was a kick back in the 90's is one thing, but to jump generations forward and kill off anything or anyone familiar is suicide. Battletech and Forgotten Realms have both done this and they were kisses of death. BT is in the process of recovering (hopefully), not sure how many more years it'll probably take for FR.

In both cases, I went from decades of faithfully read their novels to trying out the new setting regardless of my misgivings only to realize my feelings were right about both franchises.

I understand kicking the hornet's nest to see what happens, but you also need to think past that.

Battletech was in the process of recovering during the FedCom Civil War, with MW games at the time being peripheral. Final Reckoning has reached record sales and games are finally starting to get back after decades. The decline began long before the Jihad, and now BTech is back.

Anyways Devlin Stone is awesome, even though he is described as, according to Victor Steiner-Davion, "a militant socialist":

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devlin_Stone

Quote

In October of 3073, Stone met with ComStar Precentor Martial Victor Ian Steiner-Davion on Tukayyid, in a meeting arranged by David Lear. At that meeting, he and Lear laid out a philosophy which Victor would privately describe as "militant socialism keyed to altruism".

I guess in the end it is altruism which beats the Word of Blake.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 July 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Cobweb]

No

[Ashla Mason]

PaintedWolf, on 10 July 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

That's what's so insane about it. They are at first methodical, calculating, patient enough to secretly skim and save on funds enough for decades to secretly train entire armies on hidden worlds, patiently never letting their existence be known for decades only to waste this vast, disciplined tightly organize network in an orgy of self-destructiveness meant to attain one completely irrational goal- punishment. Punishment on All of Mankind for (at the very least in their POV) being Wrong. The issue of whether or not simply being wrong deserves punishment, let alone severe mass punishment is never questioned- because all the followers are, by their secret training, insane, and so is their deformed, inbred Master.

The fact they were able to build this secret army is in and of itself totally bonkers, since the great houses are collectively equipped with the most insanely paranoid intelligence aperatus' imaginable. Like, Theodroe Kurita could probably have Sun Tzu Liao's stool that was dropped in his personal quarters if he so willed it for crying out loud.

[Arctic Fox]

Considering Clan Ghost Bear's actions after 3075, there's a fair chance that the Word of Blake/Wolverine conspiracy was cooked up by Chandrasekhar Kurita specifically to get them to join the Coalition's attack on the Protectorate. There is not much in the way of evidence of it being true, in any case.

As for playing the Word of Blake. They're not strictly my favourite faction, but I've taken quite to liking them quite a bit lately, so I just might if they're available.

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

The fact they were able to build this secret army is in and of itself totally bonkers, since the great houses are collectively equipped with the most insanely paranoid intelligence aperatus' imaginable. Like, Theodroe Kurita could probably have Sun Tzu Liao's stool that was dropped in his personal quarters if he so willed it for crying out loud.

ComStar had an army for centuries that these intelligence agencies never picked up on, and it was quite a bit larger than the one which the Word of Blake had, so that's nothing new. Of course that's besides the point, since the Inner Sphere's various intelligence agencies were well aware WoB's secret army existed.

PaintedWolf, on 10 July 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I guess in the end it is altruism which beats the Word of Blake.

Oh, and I thought it was Regulan nuclear weapons that did it...

Edited by Arctic Fox, 10 July 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Odweaver]

I'd go wobbie if they decided to do a reboot for the post jihad era instead of the Dark Ages.

[Atomfire]

As soon as Wobbies show up I will instantly change from kicking down Laio's door to leading a whole march against the Word of Blake whether Command likes it or not. I plan on ending the Word of Blake before they even get on their feet. All of Word of Blake shall burn!

[Ashla Mason]

Arctic Fox, on 10 July 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

ComStar had an army for centuries that these intelligence agencies never picked up on, and it was quite a bit larger than the one which the Word of Blake had, so that's nothing new. Of course that's besides the point, since the Inner Sphere's various intelligence agencies were well aware WoB's secret army existed.

1: Prior to Tukkayid, the only thing the Com guards were used for was garrison work to protect HPG compounds from idiots who would actually attack them.
2: This doesn't explain how they were able to build a fleet of warships without anyone noticing, partilularly since WoB comprised the nutty half of comstar.
3: The army that WoB fielded was able to attack everyone in the IS and periphery simultaneously, beginning this by bombing the hell out of two planetrary capitols simultaneously, and no one was able to see these ships comming?

[Damascas]

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

1: Prior to Tukkayid, the only thing the Com guards were used for was garrison work to protect HPG compounds from idiots who would actually attack them.
2: This doesn't explain how they were able to build a fleet of warships without anyone noticing, partilularly since WoB comprised the nutty half of comstar.
3: The army that WoB fielded was able to attack everyone in the IS and periphery simultaneously, beginning this by bombing the hell out of two planetrary capitols simultaneously, and no one was able to see these ships comming?

The WoB had several secret shipyards plus most of Comstars ships and shipbuilding capability. This plus all the star maps for pirate jump points gave them the initial element of surprise. They also had an open army in the form of their militia and many merc units in their employ.

[Ashla Mason]

Damascas, on 10 July 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

The WoB had several secret shipyards plus most of Comstars ships and shipbuilding capability. This plus all the star maps for pirate jump points gave them the initial element of surprise. They also had an open army in the form of their militia and many merc units in their employ.

All the star maps and pirate points can't sneak 2 fleets of warships through 2 seperate states simultaneously; assuming they were launching from the edge of the chaos march they would still take months to reach tharkad and avalon.

Further, I should reiterate that they attacked everyone in the galaxy. Completely ignoring that they couldn't possibly have had enough troops to pull off such a feat, the logistics of such a campaign should have crippled them in months, not years.

[Arctic Fox]

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

1: Prior to Tukkayid, the only thing the Com guards were used for was garrison work to protect HPG compounds from idiots who would actually attack them.

Prior to the Jihad, the Word of Blake's secret army was used for pretty much nothing. Well, okay, the Manei Domini were fielded in intelligence/special operations but probably only in relatively small numbers.

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

2: This doesn't explain how they were able to build a fleet of warships without anyone noticing, partilularly since WoB comprised the nutty half of comstar.

The Word of Blake had access to a whole bunch of ships, mothballed by ComStar throughout the Succession Wars at places like the 'Ruins of Gabriel', which they used to build up their own fleet. That's how the Free Worlds League got the majority of its WarShips in the 3050s and 3060s with WoB's help as well, which also coincidentally allowed the Blakists to subvert a large portion of the FWLN.

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

3: The army that WoB fielded was able to attack everyone in the IS and periphery simultaneously, beginning this by bombing the hell out of two planetrary capitols simultaneously, and no one was able to see these ships comming?

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

All the star maps and pirate points can't sneak 2 fleets of warships through 2 seperate states simultaneously; assuming they were launching from the edge of the chaos march they would still take months to reach tharkad and avalon.

The Word of Blake fleet at Tharkad was already in-system on December 5th as part of the Word of Blake delegation to the Fourth Whitting Conference; everyone knew it was there. The one that attacked New Avalon was probably already within 30 light years (60 if they had Lithium-Fusion Batteries, perhaps 90 depending on the exact timing) when the Conference started, as it was supposedly originally going to deliver supplies to the Federated Suns as a gift for voting the Word of Blake into the Star League, and it would have been pretty easy for it to move it through uninhabited systems without anyone noticing beforehand.

Ashla Mason, on 10 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Further, I should reiterate that they attacked everyone in the galaxy. Completely ignoring that they couldn't possibly have had enough troops to pull off such a feat, the logistics of such a campaign should have crippled them in months, not years.

I can attack everyone in the galaxy with a company of infantry and a JumpShip. I won't gain anything, but I could do it if I wanted. By crippling the Successor States' leadership and communications, and by making sure their enemies were too busy fighting each other (or themselves, in the case of the FWL and Draconis Combine), the Word of Blake bought themselves enough time to conduct a marginally successful campaign for a few years. Once those advantages ended, they collapsed very quickly.

As for logistics and troops, if the Clans had so little problems conquering a huge chunk of the Inner Sphere with supply lines stretching over a thousand light years, then I really don't see why it should be hard for the Word of Blake, with a significantly larger industrial base and dozens of times the manpower, to conduct its own campaign at a much shorter range. Especially given how the Clans managed to hold onto most of their gains and the Word of Blake lost completely...

[Papertarget]

To me, the WoB isn't really a problem, and the Jihad was less the destroyer of BT then the whole Dark Age Fiasco. The concept of the innermost planets of the inner sphere creating a "new golden age" in the setting it was going in, is to me not very believable. (Yeah I know. BT is so very believable...) But what made it worse to me, was the concept that all of the Great Houses would disarm. I could suspend disbelief for most of the story-line till that. Paranoia is not something that people just say "You know, I think I am tired of not trusting Crazy leaders like the Mariks or the Lios. I am tired of fearing that the Dragon will try and bite into my realm. Lets all just be friends and throw away our military and hope for the best. After all, it isn't like the Clans didn't come out of no-where and almost destroy all we held dear or anything, or the WoB didn't just pop up out of nothing but poppy dreams to fry whole worlds. That is something that could never happen again." Most normal people would consider that the past would have bearing on the future. Instead of believing it could never happen, they would instead become MORE paranoid. And it wouldn't matter a fly fart in a hurricane what someone like Devlin Stone had to say about things.

So for me, Jihad sorta plausible. Devlin Stone, remotely possible. Disarming the whole IS, INCLUDING the clans... Emphatic no. Never would happen. Dark Age is a crock. I was an avid reader of the series, and an avid player of all things BT till the Jihad. That was something that I didn't really care for. I tried to read the Dark Ages books, but I really couldn't suspend disbelief for them. Maybe if I had started with them, and didn't know a thing about BT, then I would have liked them more. But human nature would show that Devlin Stones dream is a hookah dream.

[Stormwolf]

PaintedWolf, on 10 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

They are fanatics. Fanatics are warmongers by their very nature.

Yoseful Mallad, on 10 July 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

they were master manipulators... if not, then how else could they have massed such an arrmy of followers as they did? Obviously, whatever miss information or truths they were spewing got the attention of a whole lot of believers. I mean look at the fact that whole battalions of mech pilots, soldiers and everything in between went WOB. Every house and comstar lost many they thought faithful. All because the manipulation tactics of the WOB worked.

I probably didn't word it correctly, the WoB should have done all the bad stuff behind the scenes. But they should have set themselves up as the salvation of the IS by giving aid to the people they secretly harmed. They would essentially set themselves up as the good guys instead of the enemy everybody knows.

There should have been disbelief among the general IS population that they are at fault, this raises the stakes for any "hero" to take them down.

Just think of them as the enemy with really good PR.

Edited by Stormwolf, 11 July 2012 - 01:41 AM.

[Broceratops]

never.

1) don't like playing religious nuts

2) the entire 'jihad' seemed pretty stupid given the technological setting, plus i find it hard to believe suddenly a huge *** army that's been hidden for the last 20 years just rampages through all the houses and the clans. where did all these fanatics get their training that they're able to go through clan warriors and IS elite units who have been fighting all their lives? not to mention they are literally fighting everyone at once. no military force ever has been able to do that, but religious nuts no one ever heard of somehow pull it off?

3) the entire WoB story arc always seemed to be like a last ditch, poorly thought through effort to throw everything into chaos to save the franchise from stagnation. and it obviously failed since that was the end of it. i mean heck, i'd prefer some tyranid style invasion or something to what they did with word of blake. it was so IMPLAUSIBLE. when your franchise is about giant robots with lasers, to be implausible to your fans you have to really screw up, which is what they managed.

4) they didnt even have a legitimate creed. LETS KILL ERRYBODAY! there is nothing likeable about the faction, yet apparently a large portion of the galaxy secretly joined it. why? what do they offer? hey'll we'll take all your crap, shoot your family, and then you can go fight for us for nothing until the day you die? SIGN ME UP.

the fedcom civil war in my mind is the last event to take place in BT. everything after that to me is non-cannon because at that point it was all a transparent money grab. the golden age for the franchise was the clan invasion.

this happened with the forgotten realms too. wizards of the coast basically said, hey this thing isnt making enough money anymore, lets blow it up! then people will be interested again! but no now its dead. things have a lifespan. especially story driven settings. sometimes you just have to end it gracefully, like lord of the rings. because otherwise you'll try to go out with a big bang and no one will like it and it'll leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouths

Edited by Broceratops, 11 July 2012 - 02:38 AM.

[DarkendMoon]

I think the running theme here is that everybody hates WOB for jacking up the Mechwarrior universe to no end. I would have to agree they could have easily done something different with the story that would have been better.