28 replies to this topic

[Kael Tropheus]

Seeing as how customization is so liberal, mechs will likely be nothing more than different skins after people figure out which is the most effective mech loadout. I was reading something on a different page about ravens being Electronic warfare boats and thought about a game that had a very effective system of differentiating different chassis while still allowing massive customization. A couple of the real workhorses everyone used if they could afford it, but there were very limited types of work ships anyway.

Have the chassis be better at certain things. Its already in the canon fluff behind the game from mechs having superior communications gear to using more efficient laser systems. Give the Raven say a 15% bonus on its ECM gear. Have the Jagermech get a 5% improvement on its autocannon damage or range. Just minor percentage things that will make mechs more than a simple skin.

[Jost]

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Seeing as how customization is so liberal, mechs will likely be nothing more than different skins after people figure out which is the most effective mech loadout.

I don't think that'll happen. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that they're planning on a hardpoint system, so each variant of each chassis will be relatively unique. You mention the Raven - I believe that there'll be hardpoints for ECW items (tag, narc, ecm), and there might be specific variants of the atlas which have ams.

I know I've read that this will be the case for jumpjets: you can't put jumpjets on just any mech: you won't be able to turn an Atlas into a 100ton highlander.

[Kael Tropheus]

I already know of the hardpoint system, like I said, might as well be total customization. The percentage thing wouldnt limit this, however it would at least steer mechs towards what they designed for as opposed to customization munchkins picking mechs strictly for the skins and doing whatever they want. Some mechs will be better at certain things than others no matter how they are customized, therefore sticking to their canon roles.

You can load mech A up with medium lasers and it will work, but mech B whose traditional role is a medium laser mech can do it more efficiently with say 5% less heat on medium lasers. The Jenner makes a great pursuit mech and light brawler but gets no bonuses to any electronic warfare equipment you add, while a Raven gets a nice bonus. Just little minor things to help differentiate mechs and sticking to the lore. There is less inclination to customize and thus screw up canon if mechs are already designed with bonuses in place for their actual roles.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Karl, I think you will find that may people will optimise to suit their preferences within the hardpoint restrictions. If you prefer energy weapons as long as a mech has enough energy hardpoints you can make it a "flashbulb" even if it is traditionally a ballistic or missile mech.
While I would prefer a less liberal MechLab I will work with what we have. A lot of people will be piloting optimised mechs within a few hours of launch.

[Jost]

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

I already know of the hardpoint system, like I said, might as well be total customization.

Why do you think it "might as well be total"? The devs have said that hardpoints will sharply limit choices. You won't (if I understand correctly) be able to put jumpjets, ecm, or extra energy weapons on mech variants that don't have hardpoints for them.

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

You can load mech A up with medium lasers and it will work, but mech B whose traditional role is a medium laser mech can do it more efficiently with say 5% less heat on medium lasers. The Jenner makes a great pursuit mech and light brawler but gets no bonuses to any electronic warfare equipment you add, while a Raven gets a nice bonus. Just little minor things to help differentiate mechs and sticking to the lore. There is less inclination to customize and thus screw up canon if mechs are already designed with bonuses in place for their actual roles.

Sounds to me as if you want _more_ customizability and departure from canon than the system the devs have described.

We should wait until we see what comes out at launch.

[Kael Tropheus]

Not at all. If it were up to me, it would be straight mechs and official varients only and no customization as anything more than a minor weapon change here and there(replacing a machine gun with a small laser for example) is anti-canon. Even the hardpoint system is too loose and people are going to game it to where we likely will see only a few mathhammered out chassis.

I say might as well be total because people will just find the varient that does what they want and do a full customization anyway.

My system in addition to hardpoints takes the fact there will unfortunately be customization but keeps mechs chassis being good at what they were intended for. Four large pulse lasers on a mech chassis after removing whatever it had before, fine, but mech chassis B over here comes that way stock and produces 5% less heat from those large pulse lasers. But it also has the intended deficiency in speed or armor. You can use the Jenner as an electronic warfare machine, it has the space, but the Raven while not having the weapons or armor of a jenner, does a much better job of it.

Maybe if we are lucky we will have a canon server with no customization so the mechwarrior munchkins can play out their mechs and the true loyalist Battle tech fans can fight in the real chassis with the purposed flaws so the game will actually be skill and not who can make the cheesiest mech.

[Reoh]

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Seeing as how customization is so liberal, mechs will likely be nothing more than different skins after people figure out which is the most effective mech loadout. I was reading something on a different page about ravens being Electronic warfare boats and thought about a game that had a very effective system of differentiating different chassis while still allowing massive customization. A couple of the real workhorses everyone used if they could afford it, but there were very limited types of work ships anyway.

Have the chassis be better at certain things. Its already in the canon fluff behind the game from mechs having superior communications gear to using more efficient laser systems. Give the Raven say a 15% bonus on its ECM gear. Have the Jagermech get a 5% improvement on its autocannon damage or range. Just minor percentage things that will make mechs more than a simple skin.

One thing we don't know a lot about are how the modules plug into the different chasis. The modules are how you apply your pilot skill benefits for role warfare. Its possible the Raven may just have more ECM module slots and thus already have something along these lines (and again for other mechs).

Edited by Reoh, 11 July 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[Jost]

Kael Tropheus, on 11 July 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Not at all. If it were up to me, it would be straight mechs and official varients only and no customization as anything more than a minor weapon change here and there(replacing a machine gun with a small laser for example) is anti-canon. Even the hardpoint system is too loose and people are going to game it to where we likely will see only a few mathhammered out chassis.

I hear you saying that you want less customization and less mathhammering. But your system allows _more_ customization than the current hardpoint system.

For example, under the current system, if there's no supported variant chassis with jumpjets, you _cannot_ add jumpjets to that mech. Under your proposed system, you could, though it would cost a little more.

Do you see what I'm saying? That's more customizability, not less. Leading to more uniformity, and less canon flavor.

[Kael Tropheus]

But we already know they are ignoring Battletech fans and putting customization in the game. Thats a given. Now what can still be done is make it a controlled customization to at least make players want to make their mechs similar to what their canon roles are by giving mechs benefits to do so instead of the monstrousities we will end up with as it stands now. Again, go ahead and customize your mech, it wont be as good as the mech is in its normal configuration. Basically a nod to vets who have kept the game going for so long and an allowance for the munchkins who want to make frankenmechs. They can make their super optimized mechs but the mech has minor bonuses in what it is supposed to be and thus will be on par with a stock mech. Purists are happy, munchkins might be mad their super mechs are no powerful than the standard version(while still being different and customized) and the board stays roughly level so purists can still compete.

[Jost]

Kael Tropheus, on 11 July 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

But we already know they are ignoring Battletech fans and putting customization in the game. Thats a given.

1) There is customization in TT Battletech.

2) Their plan (hardpoints) limits customization more, and promotes more Canon flavor than your proposal.

[Johnny Kerensky]

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Seeing as how customization is so liberal

Liberalism from the Latin liberalis is a political ideology or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality

Come back when you actually know and understand the term liberal and liberalism.
For the record what exactly do you think that the word liberal means?
So you think that the hardpoint system is free and equal?
I can tell you that in fact it's the opposite and not so little fascist in it's uncustomizable design.
This will probably end up biting the devs in the a$$... the uncustomizability of the mechs that is.

Edited by Johnny Kerensky, 12 July 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[Dracol]

If the game was being released with a huge assortment of mechs, then maybe I would be more likely to support canon only mechs... but we only get ten to start.


The big issue for me that makes mech customization important is the chassis experience system they have been talking about. If I have to spend a lot of time in one particular mech chassis, I need to be able to change it up. If it had to have the same load out every game I'll get bored.

Limiting mech tweaks any further than they already have with hard points is not an option in my opinion.

[Kael Tropheus]

Customization in TT was an addon. It usually was banned from every group I played in due to the severe unbalance it caused. I played a single group that allowed it one afternoon, that showed me why it was banned everywhere else in the twenty some odd years I have played. Canonwise in the hundreds of mechs and pilots in the books, only a bare handful have any customized changes. IS just doesnt have the tech know-how to do it. Even Jamie Wolf and the Kuritan Coordinator, two of the most powerful characters in the fluff, have stock Archers. Some of Snord's folks have a couple customizations due to battle damage and their mechs are wonky and have major issues because of it.

Liberal customization- the ability to do pretty much whatever you want to your mech. With the varients out there to pick from, you can pretty much customize to your heart's content. The system is barely restrictive at all and throws canon out the window. Since you think its too restrictive and I dont think there should be any at all says they might have hit a decent balance. We will see.

[Reoh]

Kael Tropheus, on 12 July 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Customization in TT was an addon. It usually was banned from every group I played in due to the severe unbalance it caused. I played a single group that allowed it one afternoon, that showed me why it was banned everywhere else in the twenty some odd years I have played. Canonwise in the hundreds of mechs and pilots in the books, only a bare handful have any customized changes. IS just doesnt have the tech know-how to do it. Even Jamie Wolf and the Kuritan Coordinator, two of the most powerful characters in the fluff, have stock Archers. Some of Snord's folks have a couple customizations due to battle damage and their mechs are wonky and have major issues because of it.

Liberal customization- the ability to do pretty much whatever you want to your mech. With the varients out there to pick from, you can pretty much customize to your heart's content. The system is barely restrictive at all and throws canon out the window. Since you think its too restrictive and I dont think there should be any at all says they might have hit a decent balance. We will see.

That's because everybody cheated. The original rulebook had rules for customisation which basically meant any weapon you fired that wasn't "natural" for the variant was practically russian roulette, except the weapon would blow up not your head.

[Affront692]

I like the limitations yes short term its a pain in the butt but long term when we have 100's of different mechs with their variants to choose from it will force you to use the right mech for the right situation which I think is great or at least how I want Mechwarrior online to be.... short missions use a hunchback....long missions use a swayback.......

[T3rran]

There's nothing wrong with customization. Every Mechwarrior game has allowed it thus far, why opt out of it now? The game is called Mechwarrior, after all. Not Battletech. On games like League of Legends, you have an optimized build that's a good catch all for majority games per champion. AD carries will go majority damage items and a defensive, tanks all defensive... however, in those games there are still customizable ways to change up your build. And sometimes, where people go "Why would you do that?" turns into "How do you do that?"

In Mechwarrior, some pilots will specialize in missile boats, ballastic boats, and laser boats. However, mechs are designed for specific usages. You can't really turn a catapult into an effective gun boat. At all considering it only allows lasers and missiles (Mechwarrior 4's mechlab, anyway. Sorry if that drops my credibility a bit.)

The name of the game is you have specific chassis' for specific roles, or a Jack of all Trades, Master of None. You can modify them to suit your needs. Where someone will prefer 2 LRM 20's, another will take 2 LRM 10's and a few extra lasers.If I had to take a guess, the developers will put the chassis at their "optimized loadout" but what they consider optimized with high damage and high recharge, you may consider low damage and low recharge.

End slightly disorganized rant.

[Graphite]

Kael Tropheus, on 11 July 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

But we already know they are ignoring Battletech fans and putting customization in the game.

Is a "BT fan" someone who has a heart attack when they see a catapult with a pair of AC10? If so I guess you're right.

I think you need a better term though, because there are plenty of us who consider ourselves "BT fans" (i.e . we play/like BT universe games: TT, MW, MC, etc) who absolutely love customisation, especially TT customisation which is limited only by tonnage and crit space.
For me personally customisation is the most enjoyable part of BT games (note this doesn't mean min/maxing cheese designs).

Maybe you could call people who can't bear to see unofficial designs "story canon nazis" (like the term "grammar nazi") or something...

Edited by Graphite, 13 July 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[Kael Tropheus]

Customization is not canon, period. BT fans know this. People whose main experience is the MW series might be a little more clueless. The game is about making the most out of the purposely flawed designs we have and winning, not redesigning and getting rid of intentional flaws. I have read every BT novel and have played TT for almost 25 years, I consider myself a fan. You can call me a canon nazi, but I think just as lowly of the people who want customization as kiddie munchkins trying to game the system. The MW series(after the first one which did it right) has bastardized the game universe ajnd thrown 25 years of history out the window by allowing customization to the degree it did. Mechs were nothing more than skins and not the mechs they were supposed to be. Essentially once you had a 100 tonner, you had anything you wanted and that was the worst part about the game series, especially since Clans are the only ones who should be able to customize the weapons and equipment of their mechs at the drop of a dime. Harsh penalties, high cost and time requirements is the only way to properly implement any kind of customization in game and keep it even somewhat in line with what it is supposed to be based off of. Theres plenty of varients of every mech. If you cant find what you are looking for without cheating and customizing, you are playing the wrong game. Having the chassis bonus system would at least reward proper canon play while still allowing and keeping munchkins on an almost level playing field. It still wont be balanced, too easy to franken mech for efficiency, but it will help.

[Thundercles]

Here's my opinion on all this - limited customization is not against the SPIRIT of the game. It may have been omitted from the original tabletop game rules due to limitations inherent with that kind of system, but the times have changed.

From a logical standpoint, there is nothing wrong with swapping one ballistic weapon for another, provided that the chassis can support it. (This being represented by hardpoint/critical system.) Putting an AC5 in a beam weapon mount, though, is more problematic, and rightfully shouldn't happen short of omnimech technology or a very expensive chassis rebuild.)

If you're dealing with a technology base that you cannot fully replicate in the field, you get very good at jury-rigging and making minor modifications. If you don't, then your mech stops being combat effective when you can't replace a damaged or depleted weapon system due to not having the exact model on hand.

Limited customization isn't "cheating", and it doesn't cheapen BT lore. It is simply expanding upon the initial framework as technology permits, as most of the messy math that would originally have required players consulting multiple tables and dropping handful after handful of dice is instead riding the lightning through your PC's processor. Freeing you up to do things like "Hey, I can swap this laser weapon for a pair of lower powered lasers, since I don't need the extra range."

In closing, this isn't a direct port of the tabletop rules. It's a whole different breed of animal - treat it that way. It's definitely not cool to imply that someone is "doing it wrong" because they do not subscribe to a draconian ruleset designed with the limitations of pen and paper in mind.

[Graphite]

Kael Tropheus, on 13 July 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Customization is not canon, period. BT fans know this. People whose main experience is the MW series might be a little more clueless.

First, in case you thought otherwise, MW is not my main experience. I was introduced to BT via Mechforce more than 20 years ago, then TT, then later MW, MM, MC etc.
You need to be more specific about what you mean by canon, because I would include the official combat rules under the "canon" umbrella.
Which makes customisation limited only by tonnage and crits, canon.

As for fiction, I've never read a single BT story. I don't have anything against it, it just hasn't happened. So I only have a minor interest in story canon (Star League, IS, clans, clan invasion is about as much as I need to know).

But I definitely call myself a BT fan. So please, come up with more specific terms.

Quote

The MW series(after the first one which did it right) has bastardized the game universe ajnd thrown 25 years of history out the window by allowing customization to the degree it did. Mechs were nothing more than skins and not the mechs they were supposed to be. Essentially once you had a 100 tonner, you had anything you wanted and that was the worst part about the game series, ...

The official rules allow customisation limited only by crits/tons.

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Theres plenty of varients of every mech. If you cant find what you are looking for without cheating and customizing, you are playing the wrong game.

First, there's only a very small number in MWO, second, don't tell other fans how to enjoy the game. Like I said, customising is what I enjoy most (and again, I don't mean merely min/maxing)

Quote

Having the chassis bonus system would at least reward proper canon play while still allowing and keeping munchkins on an almost level playing field. It still wont be balanced, too easy to franken mech for efficiency, but it will help.

It'd be silly.
It'd also be totally unnecessary, as MWO has hardpoint restrictions for certain weapon types. So each chassis is individual - stop worrying.

Edited by Graphite, 13 July 2012 - 07:18 PM.