12 replies to this topic

[Kurvi]

The latest event had me trying out CW again. This time, I did things "the right way" and installed TS and dropped with a few organized Davion teams. I also made sure to listen to the drop caller and tried to fulfill my orders to the best of my abilities. It was well worth it.

I played with both completely cobbled together teams, as a supernumerary to a 12-man team who graciously allowed me to join then, and a bunch in between. The main takeaway is what everyone experienced with CW already knows and keeps telling people here -- teamwork is crucial. Both to success and to getting into matches faster (and thus less frustrating wait times). I simply cannot stress this enough.

On a team level, I think I did ok. I dropped in an ECM mech (as ordered) to cover the Battlemasters sniping the gates and joined in on the charges (ignore the enemy, turrets and generators first). I played bait when asked and tried to focus the legs of the targets called out.
One key item for all you drop leaders: I did not initially realize you had to hit the generators/omega in a specific hitbox to do them damage; it's not something that ever came up in the testing grounds and I didn't realize I was doing it wrong until someone saw me failing to do damage it and called it out. It is probably worth pointing this out to any future PUG you play with.

The biggest thing I would like advice on is how to do more personal damage. Yes, yes. I realize that it's all about completing the objectives, but it seems to me that at this point the best way for me to help a team do so is to improve my mech dropping ability.

It goes like this:

My average damage for a full CW match was about 500. I think this is about normal for the PUG-cobbled games I joined, but it seems that for many, a damage score of ~1000 for a match is a reasonable minimum. I guess the question is what am I doing wrong? There are several options I can think of, but I want to know if I am missing something obvious.

1) Not familiar with the map.

Not knowing where the natural hiding places are, and the best places to take cover is an issue. Also, some of the more debris-covered maps can slow you down if you don't know where the obstacles are. I specifically noticed this in Grim Portico, where my Griffin wasn't able to reach targets as fast as the heavies simply because I kept bumping into rocks. This should improve naturally with time, and a little testing grounds love also helps.

2) Not good enough spreading damage.

Basically, the premise here is that my mech is simply not lasting long enough in order to do sufficient damage. I don't think this is a major contributor to the number as I was not always the first person to fall (even the last person in the wave on occasion). Still, I expect this is something that will organically improve with practice even on regular drops, unless there is some specific CW trick that is different?

3) Not the right mechs/loadout.

This might be an issue. I'm currently using a Stalker, 2x Griffins and a Firestarter for my deck (all mastered). I've read the metamech articles on CW, so I'm not completely ignorant of what is needed. On the other hand, I don't have enough c-bills (or mechbays) yet to buy whatever I want. I can probably tweak weapon loadouts, but changing to a different chassis is going to be hard unless there is something crucial I'm missing (e.g. a ballistics heavy mech for hot maps).

4) Bad aiming.

I think I'm doing well enough in the PUG drops (regularly get 300 damage per mech there), and if this is really the case then I assume it will also naturally improve over time, but again, maybe I'm doing something fundamentally wrong? Part of this is knowing the maps better (PGI: if the maps were chosen from the same stable as the regular queue this would help a lot).

5) Consumables.

I've picked up free consumables over the last events and I didn't have much success doing damage with artillery. For other newbies: practice using them in the testing grounds and they won't get used up. For the PGI: might be useful to have a better way to train with them. They are reasonably costly that I would rather not waste them in PUG matches just for training.

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That's pretty much it. If anyone has other things I could do besides the obvious "play more CW to gain experience in everything", I would love to hear it.

[Tarl Cabot]

First, on your drops, how did the teams fare? Communication is the key but also providing feedback. Sometime the directions being provide is not right for that drop, such as hitting Omega on counterattack, or taking Beta entrance on Sulfurous Rift, bottleneck for non-aggressive attackers most of the times.

Taking damage - Many will not to put most of your armor in front, leaving a 2-8pts on the rear, more so if your mech's back is more flat than not.

As for mechs being used, it is not just which mechs and their load outs, but in what order to take them, which will vary depending on the player. When I use the Stalker-N, rarely is it the first mech I take. Depending on is happening I generally take it on the 2nd or 3rd drop, using it as cleanup for the 1st wave while dealing damage on the 2nd wave. My load out is also at 4LL/2ML, generally with one pair of LL set on chain fire. Think of it as playing chicken, which mech will twist/back out first, and providing a more steady stream of fire helps push it some. Again, it will vary from player to player.

2 Griffins means you should be backing up a heavier mech, as you can not take and deliver the punishment that a T-bolt can deliver. I would also say set your throttle to decay so that when you let off the key you stop, allowing you to back up quicker into cover. Many light pilots use it for that very reason. I would ask which griffins are being used and their load out.

The firestarter is just that. Be aware it is also the only light (Clan or IS) without any structural quirks. Even two Cheetah omnipods variants have structural quirks.

[Spheroid]

Griffins are not good for CW. Big laser alphas are the name of the game.

Given your available mechs you might try: Stalker, trial Thunderbolt, Griffin, trial Raven-3L(ecm) or Stalker, trial Hunchback, trial Enforcer, trial Thunderbolt.

Also with all the laser spam I believe coolshot is worth the cost. If you win you largely recoup the cost.

Form a solid deathball, focus fire and win all games modes through attrition. Focusing on objectives solely is a bad idea useless it is demanded from lack of match time.

[Khereg]

See the link in my sig.

CW performance is really just regular performance extended over a longer duration. The things you mentioned are good places to pursue improvements.

I would also add: make sure you're getting at least 30 fps at all times. If you're getting less than that (and especially below 20), you're just not going to do as well as you could. Having a proper rig is de rigeur for CW.

[Kurvi]

Thanks everyone for the replies/advice.

Regarding my drops, they ran the gamut from total failures to complete domination and included everything in between. Two of the drop callers in particular were *really* good and included mech order in their instructions (e.g. "Heaviest first" or "brawler first"). The interesting point is that while dropping with an organized troop increased the chance of success by 1000%, my personal damage score was pretty consistently 300-600 per match while the better players generally got 2-3 times that amount.

The fact that this happened across game modes and with and against different teams implies to me that there is skill that I need to "level up". I'm sure that my aiming and piloting skills can be improved, but I wonder if I am missing out on some special secret sauce that is necessary for CW that I am overlooking.

As an example, are you saying that if you guys played with Griffins instead of Hunchbacks that you expect your total damage to go down by half? Is success really so chassis dependent? Is a trial Thunderbolt really better than a mastered Griffin?

FWIW, I tried running my Griffin-1S with 275std, 3xLL to get that extra range damage (though the fact that it's all in one arm makes it easy to be disarmed so maybe an XL would actually be useful). I don't think it made much of a difference, though perhaps more long range gunnery practice is necessary here.

P.S. I have read the guide.

Edited by Kurvi, 17 November 2015 - 12:10 PM.

[Khereg]

Kurvi, on 17 November 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

As an example, are you saying that if you guys played with Griffins instead of Hunchbacks that you expect your total damage to go down by half? Is success really so chassis dependent? Is a trial Thunderbolt really better than a mastered Griffin?

Mech selection and loadouts are probably the single easiest thing for a new player in CW to improve upon to help their damage numbers, but no, the difference is not that dramatic.

I've had a couple of occasions when we've switched factions where I've accidentally dropped in the default trial mechs for a CW match. Whereas I would normally do 1200 - 2000 damage with my usual group and in my usual (i.e. meta) mechs/loadouts, in these cases my goal was to break 1k - which I usually did or got very close.

That's a pretty extreme example and the damage dropoff from my usual performance is roughly 20% - 50%. The difference between a griffin and a hunchback wouldn't be anywhere near that extreme, assuming both had decent weapon selection for CW (i.e. medium to longer range and not pure brawlers).

For some additional thoughts, there is very much a pattern to a CW match, and knowing how it's likely to evolve is very helpful. Unless a drop caller is running a particular strategy to the contrary, the natural order of things is usually:

1st wave: Heavier, slower mechs with longer range (400 - 500+ m, minimum, up to the longest ranges in the game)
2nd wave: More heavies, maybe a little shorter range (300 - 500 m)
3rd wave: Mediums or lights, similar range to 2nd wave
4th wave: Mediums or lights, your brawliest mech (100 - 400 m)

Ideally, teams want to run in waves, especially when attacking. Meaning that you want a full set of 12 fresh mechs to start the fight, everyone dies, and then another group of 12 fresh mechs starts a new wave.

Because of this, and unless specifically asked to reinforce, it is almost always better to regroup in a safe zone after you die rather than rush back in to the fight. I see players make this mistake all the time. If you're on defense and the attackers are deep in your base and threatening your spawn, you may have no choice but to immediately reinforce. Them's the breaks.

The playstyle in CW is mostly peeking and poking - very few pushes or brawls until one side gains a kill advantage of 4 - 5 mechs on a wave. Then, if your team has the advantage, expect to push the other team and overwhelm them with numbers. Vice versa if your team fell behind. After a few drops, you'll start to anticipate these developments and make sure you're in solid position to deal with the the next shift in the front line.

All of this will add up to better performance because you'll:
a: Have the right mech on the field at the right time
b: Improve your peeking and poking ability to help your team gain that crucial kill advantage on each wave
c: Anticipate the next movement call and be in position to either push or make a fighting retreat

Getting to know the maps is also crucial. Check out Smurfy's and spend some time in the testing grounds walking through an advance and a defense on each map. Look for the better positions to set up for a poke and a quick retreat. Pay attention during matches to see how teams usually advance.

On Boreal, for example, a common attack path is to go though the left (alpha) gate, quickly get inside in one big group, move to the left to get behind cover, and move up the low ground along the left hand boundary until reaching the "butt crack" (a ditch on the right just before reaching the base) where attackers will frequently then spread and try to form a firing line with good cover and good peek and poke options.

Knowing that and knowing where and when to move to certain spots makes a world of difference.

If possible, find a good CW group in your faction and try to drop with them a few times. Listen to the drop caller and do what they say. There's no better substitute for seeing a solid CW performance in action. For Davion, I suspect Robinson's Rangers (RRB) or Headhunters of Davion (HHoD) are still pretty active in CW. They're both large groups and should have a pretty active presence in CW on any given evening (assuming you're NA based)

Edited by Khereg, 17 November 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

As an example, are you saying that if you guys played with Griffins instead of Hunchbacks that you expect your total damage to go down by half? Is success really so chassis dependent? Is a trial Thunderbolt really better than a mastered Griffin?

FWIW, I tried running my Griffin-1S with 275std, 3xLL to get that extra range damage (though the fact that it's all in one arm makes it easy to be disarmed so maybe an XL would actually be useful). I don't think it made much of a difference, though perhaps more long range gunnery practice is necessary here.

Long range gunnery is where it is at, to soften up the enemy then being aggressive at the right time to exploit a moment and them out, then if need be moving to a more protective area then softening up the fresh meat til you die. Part of that is where mouse control comes in. Some run their mouse so loose you think they got it from the strip If your mouse has DPI settings, you will use one or two lower DPI settings while in combat than you would use in the mechlab or outside of the game.

For myself, I run my mechs with both long range/short range weapons. Usually on the short range weapons I am usually barely holding on but having the ability to apply additional damage close up never hurts, especially if the big guns are in one section. If if the loss of a IS mech's side torso w/ IS-XL engines did not outright killed it, I would allow a similarly equipped Griffin that would move faster and a couple of more DHS.

On the Griffin 1S..2LL/2ML/2*SRM4/1ton ammo, Endo, std 250, 3DHS, full armor (may need to take a few points off left arm), 4JJ. Try not to run an XL engine for most IS mechs in CW due to becoming a glass cannon. Advanced Seismic sensor/Radar Dev/LL range module. This sets you up for both long and close range, and for when you get into the meat of it.

The trial T-bolt, especially if you were using it to level up the exp points until you could purchase it would work some of the time. I would run it in the regular queues first to get a feel for it. It would be missing out the Skill Efficiency, which will hurt it. My T-bolt of that variant I run with 3LPL and 2ML setup so that if I do lose one side I still have something to deal damage til my next mech.

I will say that switching from 2T-bolts/Wolverine/Enforcer to 2T-bolts/Stalker/Firestarter, my average overall CW points/damage has increased, with most of the damage coming from the Stalker/T-bolt 5SS.

In the long run, my experience is that what works in the regular queues usually does not work in CW, and vis-versa. That is where the shock comes in for pug players, as many fail to adapt. To put it in another perspective, what works most of the time in a 12vs12 does not usually work in a 4vs4 (PTS). Everyone will have their own approach, all you can do is take notes and find what works for you, but also have an open mind and experiment.

[Kin3ticX]

The average CW player does 960 damage so you want to be creeping up to that consistently for starters. While damage is not everything under the sun, it always nice to have and you want to be able to hit the average. That is less than 250 damage per 'mech so its not as hard as it sounds. If you can't do it then you need to change things up

If you are using sub optimal mechs(which looks to be the case) for CW then that is the low hanging fruit that is primarily handicapping you.

If you have done all that is humanly possible with dropdeck tweaking and optimizing, then maybe its how you are playing or who you play with.

For example, everyone gets focus fired from time to time and has a bad game, but if you are doing this over and over and over then something is holding you back

It could be who are you playing with and what mechs they tell you to use. How is the unit synergy and are they using the right approach? You can try playing with different units in other factions to test this.

Make sure your mouse settings arnt set too high or too low(too high seems to be most common). I have some information on this in my guide pinned in the CW forums.

You don't want to always be sitting in the back playing captain damage farm but you also dont want to be throwing mechs away carelessly. There is a proper balance of armor sharing and keeping your guns online as long as possible.

Lurms are mostly garbage in CW. If you are looking to improve as quickly as possible you want to focus on direct fire.

The balance pass coming up with shake things up some but I will go through and make the needed updates as needed. If anything we will see SRMs used more on maps like Vitric but a lot of the existing builds may still be a thing alongside new ones.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 17 November 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[Leone]

Map familiarity will come with time. Keep it up.

As for damage spreading, best advice I can give is lead with your shield side (Left side for Griffins) while pushing through chokes and whilest outta range. After that, just try not to present your CT whilest being shot. I always leave one Jump jet on my jump capable mechs so I can tap my jets over rough terrain when I'm not looking forwards. Doesn't work on the dragon's teeth, but it'll do for the little debris in Grim portico for instance.

For IS and load outs, I'm a huge fan of ballistics. Sure their limited in ammo, but there's usually only 1000~1250 damage per player to go around. For me, your mechs wouldn't be as good, but everyone's got their niche, just make sure the mechs you bring work for you. And, now that I think about it, one of my more used builds starting out was medium lasers an srms, so it's not a bad build, just close ranged. And bringing close ranged builds takes a bit of extra work in CW since alotta folk don't, meaning your team often doesn't want to back you up when you try to close in to brawl. I could prolly still do okay with griffin, but I'd hafta change the way I play.

Trial thunderbolt is only better than a mastered griffin if your better in it. Know your strengths. Heck, Most thunderbolts I see are 5SS or 9SE. I've tried them and found them wanting. The only thunderbolt I like happens to be The completely not Meta TDR-9S. Like I said, I like my ballistics.

I have dropped four brawlers in Boreal vault before and done excellently, but, only cuz my team at the time played aggressive and got me into my preferred range. If you can do 300 damage in a normal match, then that tells me what your missing out on here is prolly the added teamplay, figuring out how to fit into the team, making sure you've clear firing lanes and aren't blocking someone else's. I dropped with plenty of teams where our 'murderball' was a disorganized mismash of mechs getting in each other's way. And I've dropped with teams where mechs would pass in front of eachother in between alphas seamlessly an no one camped any corners. Stuff like that'll just take time to learn, and'll probably be the biggest personal improvement your looking for.

For consumables, I'd rebind them to something on the keyboard, easy enough to reach, but not something you'll hit on accident. Mine are on 'J' and 'L' respectively, and yes, every once and a while I'll pop outta cover and switch to heat mode whilest trying to drop an arty on an enemy position, but for the most part, it allows me to place them quickly where I want 'em.

For consumables, arty is best for placing in or infront of a push to either disperse or damage, or to place as a deterrent to give yourself a quick breather. I personally prefer to bring airstrikes, since you can use em to hit past walls or other cover, and they do okay against a press of mechs, if you angle it right (airstrikes always come from your position moving away.)

As for uav's, their biggest advantage is against an enemy push or when the poking get's close, letting you target your opponents while their still under cover so that the moment they pop out, you can shoot em whilest they're still trying to aim at you. Also helps with the torso twisting since you may get your full alpha off while they're targeting you and can twist an dodge whilest they fire. There's a reason I always try to shoot down enemy uavs.

Good Luck Mechwarrior, keep it up.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 17 November 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Kurvi]

Thanks again for the tips. I'll try some of the stuff you guys suggest.

1) I think I'll try putting a smaller STD engine in a Griffin and running it like a pocket heavy. If everyone else is running Thunderbolts and the like, then maybe the extra speed is not as useful in a push. Extra tonnage for weapons might be useful.

2) I don't think I'll be buying a new chassis until I try out all the new trial mechs. Is there any in particular you guys think would be useful for CW?

3) I wonder if it's just my longer range aiming skills that need to be improved. I know this is not really a meaningful stat, but out of curiosity, would you guys mind posting your LL/ERLL dmg/shot? It's my main ranged weapon and I wonder if I just need to practice more.

[T0rmented]

Asking the questions your asking and listening to the advice youve already been given is a good start.
optimise your loadouts module out your mechs, use consumables.
Ultimitely aim and thus damage boils down to point and click
practice well, keep challenging yourself.
maximize time spent shooting and you are doing all you can for the team
glhf kickass

[Khereg]

Kurvi, on 18 November 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Thanks again for the tips. I'll try some of the stuff you guys suggest.

2) I don't think I'll be buying a new chassis until I try out all the new trial mechs. Is there any in particular you guys think would be useful for CW?

The Thunderbolt (especially the 5SS) is one of the more versatile CW mechs on the IS side for couple of reasons. First, it hits the sweet spot on tonnage at 65t and also it can be kitted out with 7 MPL's for a 2nd or 3rd wave drop or 4 ERLL for max range on 1st drop (ideally on heat neutral or cold maps).

The Raven 2x is a wonderful light to have in the deck: 3 LL and high mobility let it maneuver and snipe with impunity. I once dropped that mech first, lasted the entire match in it, and did over 2k damage.

If you're skilled with it, the Blackjack 1x is a dps monster.

All of the above are energy boats, which alleviate the need to worry about ammo, but can a little too hot on sulphurous and vitric.

Quote

3) I wonder if it's just my longer range aiming skills that need to be improved. I know this is not really a meaningful stat, but out of curiosity, would you guys mind posting your LL/ERLL dmg/shot? It's my main ranged weapon and I wonder if I just need to practice more.

LL dmg/shot = 5.5, dmg/hit = 6.1
ERLL dmg/shot = 5.11, dmg/hit = 5.88

With the ERLL, it can be hard to hold the beam on the target for the full duration and I think that shows in the above. When you consider the heat difference between these weapons, it can often make sense to stay with the LL over the ERLL - unless you really need the extended range (e.g. on Boreal).

[Kurvi]

Khereg, on 18 November 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

LL dmg/shot = 5.5, dmg/hit = 6.1
ERLL dmg/shot = 5.11, dmg/hit = 5.88

Aha! This might be the problem. Mine (for the LL) are 3.5 and 4.4 respectively. Given that a large amount of CW warfare is at range, working on improving this will probably yield nice dividends.