125 replies to this topic

[Wraiths Crono]

AbyssalTyrant, on 20 November 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Yes , as a matter a fact there was! They were called Clans .

Hmmm I was in this game well before the clans, and all I remember was every one bitching because a better pilot was better than them, so it HAS to be their mech is weak, the other mech is OP, it doesn't matter, people are going to ***** and whine and moan about this crap because they are not willing to invest the time to earn better mechs, to learn the game and not pretend is a COD or halo game. If the whiners would make an investment into a game either with their time we would not need PGI to try and make the clans, those that play clans because we have been clan since Mechwarrior 2 at least, weaker to appease the cheap IS players that do not want to spend the c bills.

[AbyssalTyrant]

So your solution is that everyone plays clan mechs? How the hell does that prove that the clan mechs are balanced?! What are you even talking about ? Who the **** cares when you started playing the franchise that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

[Inkarnus]

Wraiths Crono, on 20 November 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

Hmmm I was in this game well before the clans, and all I remember was every one bitching because a better pilot was better than them, so it HAS to be their mech is weak, the other mech is OP, it doesn't matter, people are going to ***** and whine and moan about this crap because they are not willing to invest the time to earn better mechs, to learn the game and not pretend is a COD or halo game. If the whiners would make an investment into a game either with their time we would not need PGI to try and make the clans, those that play clans because we have been clan since Mechwarrior 2 at least, weaker to appease the cheap IS players that do not want to spend the c bills.

people like you should stay 10 feet away from talking about balance.
Since apperently according to your post count in all these years you care 0 about it or are drowing in alt accs.

Edited by Inkarnus, 20 November 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Khobai]

Penalizing clan xl is extremely dumb

Mechs like kitfox which have huge side torsos with little armor are now useless

Makes no sense to nerf kitfox too just to nerf timberwolf. That's why blanket nerfs are terrible

[Blood Skar]

Khobai, on 20 November 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Penalizing clan xl is extremely dumb

Mechs like kitfox which have huge side torsos with little armor are now useless

Makes no sense to nerf kitfox too just to nerf timberwolf. That's why blanket nerfs are terrible

Especially when Clan mechs cant change those XL engines for standard ones.

IS mechs already get crazy quirks - in PTS4 they get crazier still....go check out the .PDF if you havn't already, IS mechs have been handed huge buffs to all sorts of quirks, weapons, structure and armour. This is what a lot of players forget when they criticise Clan mechs and call them OP. Some of those Clan mechs that were considered OP now have some extremly harsh negative quriks. (-20% in some cases - energy Dire Wolf for example).

Oh and btw Clan mechs arn't getting anywhere near the quirks to torso twist/speed etc. that IS mechs are getting in PTS4. Take a look at the .PDF its all in there. This means that with the Mech Efficiences nerf (over nerfed imo), IS will come out better from that than Clan mechs will.

I brought back my Hunchback the other day (fully mastered) and was surprised how effective he now is. I still love taking my AS7-D-DC out for a spin - he's still extremly effective - with his ECM, LRM spam, Gauss rifle and dual ER PPC....and his torso twisting tankiness I dont use my Stalker 5S as much as i used to but thats mainly due to the huge upfront alphas thesedays. STK-5S used to be my favourite mech.

When will you guys ever consider Clans and IS to be equal(this is impossible due to differeing tech)? Maybe when no one wants to take a Clan mech at all?

I think its time we all stopped this Clan OP thing until PTS4 is on live and we can then survey the situation and see whats what.
I'm predicting a lot of players will move back to IS mechs. Lets see if i'm right or wrong.

Edited by Blood Skar, 20 November 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Khobai]

After some thought, I might be okay with the CXL penalty if clan engine ratings were unlocked

But engine penalties combined with locked oversized engines that take up all your podspace and force you to boat lasers, which are now nerfed into the ground, is too much.

[Jonathan Paine]

Commander A9, on 20 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-pts-4-updated

Lasers
• Clan ERSmallLaser MaxRange reduced to 360 (400)
• Clan ERMediumLaser MaxRange reduced to 688 (810)
• Clan SmallPulseLaser MaxRange reduced to 297
• Clan MediumPulseLaser MaxRange reduced to 561

Clan Double Heat Sink capacity will be reduced from -1.4 to -1.1. This is reducing the maximum heat value for a 'Mech before it shuts down, not the speed at which it cools off.

Clan Mech XL Engines • When a Clan 'Mech loses a Side Torso, its Engine power is reduced by 20% for the rest of the match. This reduction applies to all factors affected by the Engine, such as turn rate, torso twist, and top speed.

I dislike these changes and reject them vehemently-this is where I stand.

---

reduced tonnage versus IS in Community Warfare,
reduced maximum heat buildup, and now with this terrible proposal over XL engines,
Ferro Fibrous and Endo-Steel..

Let me address your points:
IS Small laser max range 270 - less than the adjusted clan smalls
IS Medium laser max range 520 - less than the adjusted clan mediums
IS Large laser max range 900 - less than the adjusted clan large lasers
IS Large pulse laser max range 730 - less than the adjusted clan large lasers
Range advantage: clans (Bonus: Clan ER Large laser 1480 m vs IS 1350, weighs 1 ton less takes up 1 less crit)

Clan DHS: 2 crits 1 ton for 1.1 heat cap, cooling rate 0.15
IS DHS: 3 crits 1 ton for 1.5 heat cap, cooling rate 0.14
I personally prefer cooling rate over capacity, but your mileage might vary. The 50% less crit space is an undeniable advantage

Clan XL engine: lose speed and worse heat management if you lose a side
IS XL engine: lose match if you lose a side

Clan Ferro and Endo takes up 7 crits less space than IS. That is 14 less crits for both. That is insane.

So yeah, looking at your points, Clan is OP. Lets add in the 3 ton lighter Gauss that takes up one less crit AND COMES WITH FREE CASE ANYWHERE YOU PUT IT...

Stop whining, or at least do some real compare and contrast.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Every last one of your mechs carry XL engines but don't die immediately due to a side torso loss. That in itself puts clans at an advantage, even without smaller, lighter, ajd more powerful weaponry and equipment. About the only thing keeping Clan mechs from just running roughshod over IS mechs are quirks and hard-locked upgrades and components, and even then the best of the Clan mechs are better than the best of the IS. Granted, a lot of Clan mechs are hot garbage, but then again so are a lot of IS mechs.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

I dislike these changes and reject them vehemently-this is where I stand.

Uh, ok.

Quote

I understand this is a test, but in the face of reduced laser ranges, ghost heat, no quirks or even negative quirks, reduced tonnage versus IS in Community Warfare, reduced maximum heat buildup, and now with this terrible proposal over XL engines, Clans are not 'easy mode.'

Fine by me. If Clans will remain an easy-mode, the re-balance procedure might be partially considered as failed attempt.

Quote

And if you believe they are, I encourage you tell me how Clan mechs are better than Inner Sphere tech, other than coming standard with Ferro Fibrous and Endo-Steel...which only gives you more tonnage to play with at the expense of alot of slots.

They have omni-pods, which frees up the MechBays by requiring a single base chassis for the remainder of customization options.
Both FF and ES occupy the same space as IS ES alone.
FF gives larger tonnage advantage, 20% vs IS 12%.
Clan mechs all run XLs, which almost as good as IS Standard engines due to negligible benefit of running with both STs destroyed.
Clan mechs has free CASE installed everywhere.
Clan mechs, safe for few exclusions, are smaller and harder to hit.
All of clan weapons are stronger, lighter or both, and occupy less space. Convenience penalties on weapons are miniscule for anyone who's naturally capable of adapting to anything.
Clans has larger choice of ballistic and missile weapons.
Clans also have lighter additional equipment, including TCs, which IS do not have.

These are all factual. Had enough?

Quote

Inner Sphere quirks are still so much more expansive and benefitting for Inner Sphere mechs, and they remain this way in PTS4. Clan quirks have been nerfs or have been nonexistant for the longest time, so what's the benefit of being on the Clans?

IS quirks were initially brought to this level in a desperate attempt to level Clans and IS closer together. Otherwise, Clans always were the dominant force and still remain as such in live environment.

The mere fact, that Clan mechs being not easy-mode anymore makes you question their viability, speaks a lot about you. I've been a dedicated IS loyalist since Closed Beta, and endured the overpowered Clan-tech ever since it became available. Someone like you will never figure out the problem, being the part of the problem, of course.
For your question, see above.

Quote

Have you seen a full 12-man of Inner Sphere pilots strap on nothing but ER Lasers on Boreal Vault and snipe down Clan mechs from well outside any Clan mechs' range? I have. You think that sounds balanced to you?

Have you seen a full 12-man Clans pillaging three IS planets in one combat phase? Have you seen a 6-man team with PUGs wearing down IS full 12-man? Oh wait, you couldn't. I forgot, that Clan Wolf is the representation of the most immature and pop-driven part of the MWO community. How in the world would you ever see such occurences... yeah, my bad.

Anyway, your subjective experience is not an argument for anything. If someone let his opponents turn himself on a D, rather than adapt to the situation, it's his personal issue.

Quote

Was there truly anything "broken" with the game BEFORE the mass quirks, ghost heat, and major nerfs were applied?

Oh, no of course, why. Having a faction with a different tech, that makes them more durable, powerful and mobile all at once is perfectly fine! Genius...

Quote

I dare PGI to play nothing but Clan mechs for a week-THEN see what they have to say.

I dare you to STFU and re-learn to play MWO by actually applying your intelligence for once, rather than the long-standing balance advantages.

Edited by DivineEvil, 21 November 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

Well, I suppose noone really understand in this topic that these changes are done to mostly nerf
A) arctic cheaters (since they re going to remain the most durable light mech after patch) .They slill have best in game hitboxes, best hardpoinst in game, really nice durability quirks and cxl. However, now when running into enemy team you might actually find yourself dead.
alpha vomit.Still, sustain damage might increase a little, so now it is a matter of a playstyle. Use ppc/ballistics/lrm/gauss/whatever in convergence with C-Lpl or C-Erll since they are not nerfed. Harder? Yes, but clans were famous for their piloting skill, not for easy to pilot mechs.
It is yet to be seen, if this quirks solve the problem or not.
P.S. clan engine HS are not nerfed as far as I can see,so the difference in heat experience might end up quite minor.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 21 November 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[Kshat]

As it stands, IS-Mechs counter Clantech with quirks.
If you reduce the power of clantech, you have to reduce the power of IS-quirks.
This did not happen on PTS4, what leads to a simple fact: balance on PTS4 is broken.
The changes to clantech are viable, but need to be reflected in reduced quirks across the board.
This would lead to a less arcade-like gameplay, with longer timetokill overall.

But, that's what the PTS is for. To experiment on things, collect data and player influx.

[CainenEX]

From player experience clan mechs have way more advantages than IS mechs. Following the copmpetitive crowd, clan mechs are the go to mech. Many people including Kanajashi have pointed out through evidence based in numbers, which is something factual, that clan mechs are just better.

They are getting reigned in and nerfed. GOOD. Hopefully they can help out the under performers abit. Would like to see more novas on the field.

[Mechi Messer]

clanmechs in general are not OP. At leat one chassis in every weight class is. That is a huge problem. Quirks helped this fact but didn't neutralize it.
summoners and novas are quite subpar, as are cutefoxes, executioners, mist lynx, etc.
Timbis, jags, direwolves, crows and cheaters are plain better than every IS mech in their weightclasses. Not by a huge margin as some mentionened, but considering the current gamemechanics they are.
They pack bigger punch (alpha) and have at least OK mobility.
Current game mechanic circles around high alpha strikes at medium to long range. Who has by far the highest alpha strike without blowing their engines to bits? Yup, several (clearly not all) clanmechs. DPS doesn't matter much. Look at most competitive players and matches. Tell me which mechs you see. It's not a matter of taste because competitive players tend and have to min/max the shite out of mechs. There are still some IS chassis used but clanmechs are used more often. For a reason I assume.
Clanmechs need adjustment since 10 vs 12 won't happen.
Nerfing EVERY clanmech sucks though because they have quite a lot of ok and shite-mechs. Punishing these chassis to bring down the happy few OP-clanmechs to more balanced levels is the wrong way.

[SkippyT72]

Nedolon, on 20 November 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

I might have gotten something wrong.
As far as I know, those changes are steps towards removing quirks. It doesn't make sense to compare quirked IS-Mechs with Clan-Mechs. If you get similar results in Clan- and IS-Mechs now, that's only because IS-Mechs got quirks. Think about playing those IS-Mechs without any quirks, ...
-->
Don't compare PTR-Clan-Mechs with live-IS-Mechs !

Yet the IS mechs STILL have more quirks in this version of PTS. Mech quirks I can see, weapons quirks need to be gone ASAP and that includes IS and Clan quirks.

As well and even the beam duration if your going to reduce range since that was the reason given for the different duration to begin with, esp with all the structure quirks your giving the IS mechs to stop the torso twisting spread of damage with the new DHS cap your also adding.

Edited by SkippyT72, 21 November 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[White Bear 84]

Boohoo, clans you so tough, fight like you so tough..

So many things make clan mechs more powerful than IS, you need to settle your petal lovely xx

[Cementi]

MechregSurn, on 20 November 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Clan mechs are OP. That is why you play clan. That is why try hard teams stay clan. Stop whining you baby.
If you were a good pilot, you would be IS for the challenge. Finally, you are correct that the IS has 2 mechs with better erll range. However, that is the only advantage in the entire inner sphere arsenal.
Clan light are better due to the broken Artic Cheater.
Clan heavy are better for many factors.
Clan mediums are better just due to the Stormcrow.
Clan assaults are at least on par with IS assaults, with better speed and more ECM teammates to tip the balance in their favor.
Clan heat is better due to reduced tonnage on gauss rifles.
Clan brawlers are better due to small lasers, reduced AC spread, reduced pulse duration and streak boats.
So, stop being a cry baby.

I was going to resist replying till I read this post.

First off I am on a clan contract currently but as I am part of a merc unit we flip. And I prefer my IS mechs (oh and i build them how I want ignoring the quirks that state i must use weapon X or suck as I do better with more variety builds than boats).

If clan mechs are so OP why do I not see more of them than IS? Why do I not see people piloting adders and summoners all the time. Clearly if all clan are OP than even the underperforming ones would still be better right? Wrong and you know it. Clan mechs are good but they have easily exploited hit boxes. Learn where to shoot on them and it really is not that hard to neuter them. The Arctic Cheetah is an exception to that but pretty much every light that gets introduced to the game has silly broken hit boxes at the begining. Oh and the firestarter can actually bring more firepower to the fight as it has more hardpoints. You may counter that The cheetah has ecm but that is ecm that is broken not the mech. I used to think that the storm crow had good hitboxes but I have learned it's weakenss as well. Aim at the top between the arms and if you can aim odds are you will hit the CT everytime. Clan mechs have very oversized hitboxes that are easily exploited if players communicate and aim. Hit R it is usefull.

IS more of a challenge......have you looked at the range on a moduled Battlemaster 1S with ER large lasers? I am guessing you have not. Also the bevy of heat management quirks that exist on IS side. Cooling is life in MWO and IS has it in spades. I much prefer to run IS. All the lighter guns in the world will not help you if you are riding 90% heat the whole fight.

Arctic Cheetah is good. But that is only because as a relatively new light its hitboxes are still wonky. Hell my panther is still to damn tough. Wolfhound is pretty hard to kill for its size as well. What makes the cheetah stand out is ECM. That is what is broken not the arctic cheetah. The hit boxes will get ironed out eventually and if ECM was fixed they wouldnt really even be an issue.

Clan heavies are better. Ok why? What makes them so much better. Their universially low slung weapons? Maybe it is their giant hit boxes. OOOh I know it is the ability to carry more weapons than they can effectively manage heat for. Seriously the Timberwolf is a solid brawler but has easily exploited hitboxes. The Hellbringer is solid long range firesupport with ECM but no jumps and has HUGE hitboxes. The ebon jaguar is great at peaking over ridges and ok at brawling but honestly its CT is also really easy to hit. Noticing a theme yet. Summoner is sadly trash and the maddog is ok again with a sign saying shoot me in the CT. Especially if they are giving you a side profile. Yes they can carry more guns however with hardlocked stuff their weapon choices are limited and even with smaller double heat sinks sometimes the fact that they have endo and ferro is a problem. Then there are the mechs that have ferro instead of endo cause you know that is a great option.

Really so the basis for all clan mediums being OP is one mech........so nerf all clans? They have no jump jets so you can play hit and run in the right terrain even with the stormcrows speed. The stormcrow is the ONE clan mech that I might concede is actually OP. Key word MIGHT. It is good but but typically runs hot and with no jump jets has limited mobility. Basicly like most clans do not fight it head on. Make it waste shots so it gets hot then go in for the kill. Or take advantage of its low slung weapons. even it's torso mounts are not that high meaning that often times you can shoot their hump before they can shoot you.

Yep you are right those Direwolves are absolute speedsters. Also as much as I like mobile assaults the gargoyle and executioner go a little to far with it. Their pod space is rather limiting. Direwolves are ok in pub but in CW their lack of speed is often a liability as you need to get through the funnels faster than they are able to. Warhawks are ok but as with all clan mechs have very unforgiving hitboxes. Also, again, universally low slung weapons with the exception of the Executioners right torso. I have had some success with a gauss rifle there but assault snipers hurt their team more than help IMO. Their armor is needed on the front line. ECM ally options for clan are Arctic Cheetah, Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Shadowcat and Hellbringer. ECM ally options for IS are Locust, Commando, Spider, Raven, Cicada, Griffin, Cataphract, and the Atlas itself. Not sure but I think that is actually 8 to 5 in favor of IS. I do not think I missed any but I went off memory and did not check so I could be wrong.

Clan heat is better because one weapon type is lighter? In a time where everyone is crying about the laser vomit meta. Gauss is a problem on both sides of the fence. Slowing down its cooldown may help but I also think they should get rid of the maximum amount of time you can charge it and have it start generating heat the longer you hold the charge. No more conserving ammo. Once you click you better be sure or you will either go up heat or have to waste a shot. Again like ECM any complaints about clan OPness about gauss is more about the advantages of gauss in general than it is the fact that Clans can run it easier. Also.....you know those low slung weapon mounts make it harder to use than IS. Ill take a double gauss jager any day (especially with the A variants ballistic range quirk) than any clan gauss mech that has to expose its entire torso profile to make a shot.

Clan brawlers are better because of small lasers..... other than lights how many mechs rely on small lasers pulse or otherwise for their damage? Reduced AC spread confuses me as well as IS AC's are pinpoint while Clan are volley fire. Streakboats I will grant you can be insanely powerfull. However if you hit R, recognize they are a streakboat then just stay out of range. If you are too slow to stay out of range odds are you have lots of pinpoint direct fire weapons and should be able to take them out before they take you out. You ll be heavily damaged everywhere but they will be dead.

Stop being a cry baby.......are not the die hard IS players the ones crying constantly about how OP clans are? Clan nerf posts pop up every day. I typically read through them for a laugh though with the proposed changes I guess I should post more.

How about the following. Push these nerfs through (I am guessing they will as the handfull of players they listen to probally want it done) then give out some massive quirks to the mist lynx, kit fox, adder, ice ferret , nova, shadowcat, summoner, maddog, gargoyle and maybe even the executioner.

Wait that sounds like a lot of stuff to have to buff? Maybe a global clan nerf is a bad idea as so many of these mechs are under achievers right now. Imagine how bad they will be after they nerf clan laser ranges and clan xl engine effectiveness.

[Appogee]

Commander A9, on 20 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

I encourage you tell me how Clan mechs are better than Inner Sphere tech,

Here.

And now that you have the factual side by side proof, stop whining, and stop selectively picking single aspects of balance to try to support your whining.

I have all the IS Mechs and all the Clan Mechs. Clan Mechs are generally better. IS has a few single variants which, if equipped as per Paul's Mech Quirk Cookbook, are more competitive.

Edited by Appogee, 21 November 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Doomerang]

I read your actual side by side comparison of factual information. Allow me to respond in kind!

Innersphere: BETTER
Clan: WORSE

For anyone interested in specifics, take a close look at the InnerSphere quirk mechs, take a look at the IS weapons table, and then compare the IS quirk modified weapons you would be using to their 'overpowered' Clan counterparts. Then, look for ANY realistic counter, at all, that a Clan player might employ against weapons that are cooler, longer ranged, and shorter duration.

If this game is to keep from hemorrhaging its player base, the InnerSphere's supreme overpowered state needs to be addressed soon.

[Lugh]

MechregSurn, on 20 November 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Clan mechs are OP. That is why you play clan. That is why try hard teams stay clan. Stop whining you baby.
If you were a good pilot, you would be IS for the challenge. Finally, you are correct that the IS has 2 mechs with better erll range. However, that is the only advantage in the entire inner sphere arsenal.
Clan light are better due to the broken Artic Cheater.
-Aww the firestarter got competition? Show me on the Mech doll where the poor cheetah touched you.
Clan heavy are better for many factors.
--Do tell care to name one or two?
Clan mediums are better just due to the Stormcrow.
--Demonstrabily false See hunchback
Clan assaults are at least on par with IS assaults, with better speed and more ECM teammates to tip the balance in their favor.
Clan heat is better due to reduced tonnage on gauss rifles.
-invalidates your entire arsenal because the gauss doesn't produce heat for either side and clan lasers ARE HOTTER
Clan brawlers are better due to small lasers, reduced AC spread, reduced pulse duration and streak boats.
-Weird how the only thing true here are the SL and Streak boat claims the rest goes to the IS.
So, stop being a cry baby.
Please take your own advice.

Editted for truthiness.

[Surn]

Crazy clanners and their mythical math.

Lets see, the best overall mech in the inner sphere is maybe the thunderbolt 5ss. It isn't as good as a hellbringer, ebj or a timerwolf, and maybe not as good as a stormcrow...but it is getting nerfed.

Yet, you write small novels in defense of keeping clan mechs op based on your worst mechs. Ludicrous.

That you don't even concede the basic point that clan heavy mechs are better than IS heavies. Incredulous.

Or thinking a to-be-Nerfed hunchback is better than a stormcrow? A joke?

Edited by MechregSurn, 24 November 2015 - 12:56 PM.