24 replies to this topic

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

a friend and i where talking about this a few nights ago, and my freind doesnt think MW/CBT is as popular as it was. but in recent years i have heard that it has gained popularity with in the UK (sales boosted on table top minis and source books tournament nights at gamestores) i'm not sure about other countries thats the whole point of the thread is to enlighten me anyway i would like to hear the thaughts of the community on CBT/MW popularity.

Cheers Kodiak Jorgensson.

[Atlas3060]

My Battletech group has been steady and strong for years, we've even convinced the store employees to buy new minis and I bug them about new books. I knew we really did well when they started asking me what minis I would like to buy. Curse my wallet for being low because I could have reserved some new scuplts.

[Creel]

miniature gaming, in general, is more popular in the UK. Catalyst has been doing well expanding the playerbase since they took over, but it's still pretty niche even within the wargaming community.

[John Clavell]

In the late 90's and early 00's tabletop gaming in the UK was doing very well. Games Workshop, which it's Warhammer and Warhammer 40k was doing so well in fact that I remember reading about the companies insane growth in the Financial Times. I of course knew about Games Workshops tabletop games, they had shops in most towns in the UK and there was a lot of coverage and growing interest. The other thing Games Workshop has going for it is their miniatures and manufacturing process have been invested in and refined a lot. They produce some stunningly detailed models. I heard a while back that Games Workshop was suffering, not seeing the kind of growth they had originally had. But I don't live in the UK anymore, so I don't know for sure.

I never knew about Battletech until 2000. When I picked up a copy of MechWarrior 4: Vengeance. On the back page of the manual was some small information about Battletech, which pictures of two Battlemech miniatures painted, I believe it was an Atlas and a Timber Wolf. Slowly over my MechWarrior carrier I got more and more interested in the lore and canon of the game and slowly begun reading up as much as I could. Buying some of the books, and asking friends I'd made through MechWarrior about Battletech in general.

One thing which always appealed to me about Warhammer 40k was the lore and canon. I did play tabletop, but I actually was more interested in painting the miniatures and modelling. These are two issues that Catalyst needs to deal with I think.

Firstly, it's visibility. Getting hold of models, rulesbooks and such for Games Workshop products is seriously easy. Not just in the UK, but even some parts of the USA, and EU countries. They have branded shops, or resellers. They also have a great official web shop for the UK, EU, and US.

Secondly, the Battlemech miniatures made today, don't really look very good at all, some look horrendous. They are still lead, which is rubbish. They also are not very detailed. Though they are still better than the ones produced from Dark Age, which looked like they came out of kinda-eggs. Funny enough, Dark Age, was the only Battletech product I ever saw on the shelves of a UK hobby gaming type store, which is certainly a sad state of affairs.

Catalyst / Topps should invest in improving their line of miniatures by investing in better manufacturing, And re-sculpting their Mechs. I think the main reason Battletech never become more pop was done to what seems like some ***-hat management from FASA trying to take shortcuts and not really seeing a long term vision. Shoddy consistency with their art work, which is SO important for tabletop. Catalyst seems to be making the right moves for the franchise now, it's in much better hands than it's even been in the past I think.

Also in a way, Battletech has suffered at the hands of it's baby brother, the MechWarrior franchise. Games Workshop designed and built a quality gaming brand in Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. They tried for a long long time to break into the computer games market. They did have an early classic. 'Space Hulk'. But other than that it was pretty woeful. They only started to hit the right notes when Relic got involved.

In contrast Battletech, through the MechWarrior games was almost eclipsed by the success of MechWarrior 2, for many people MechWarrior is the brand they recognise, not Battletech.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

yeah iam aware of GW popularity, even own sevral of the minitures too (SM/necron fan my self) although i know little of the lore for 40k as i got into it via Dawn of War games. i dont think catalyst are handling the minitures badly, they already have sevral re-sculpts of the atlas and have done many more (just a few examples of the atlas below) which are done by Iron Wind Metals. CBT had a box set out that contained an army set of plastic mechs, but they where poor qaulity soo just an assumption here maybe thats the reason they stick with pewter (lead free). i think that CBT minis are alot cheaper then GW metal minis also, a pack of grey knights for example are something arround £20,00 i could buy 6-8 mechs/tanks for that price the store i purchase my CBT minis from sold them from £3.00-£6.00 a mini. also i have seen discontinued CBT mechs come back in to the production line (was soo happy to finaly own a flashman mini ) catalyst recently released an anniversy boxset for CBT it contains a new plastic army (they look pritty sweet) as well you get 2 extra omnimechs which can be posed or altered. theres also Camospecs which help people to get started into painting for Battletech so yeah looks like there reaching out to the modeling fanbase as well as mini wargameing fanbase.





i understand the angle your coming at with the GW minis, there detailed highliy modable and easy to get a hold off, i had trouble finding the minis till i stumbled across the Ral Partha store in Liverpool (think Ral Partha handle the Europe side of the minis).

anyway thanks for the opinions guys looking forward to hearing more if anyones got something to add.

(images from Camospecs and belong to there respected artists) http://camospecs.com/

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 30 November 2011 - 11:17 AM.

[Atlas3060]

Technically Iron Wind Metals handles the miniatures, not Catalyst, also they aren't lead anymore that stopped I think during the early 90s?

[John Clavell]

Games Workshop don't make many metal parts anymore, they phased much of it out. The reason was that they could basically get better, and more detailed models from the plastic injection. I remember reading about it. I'm not an expert on Injection moulding so I certainly can't say what the pros and cons are with any kinda of authority. But you can certainly see the difference in detail on the models.

And yes, Catalyst don't make the models. Games Workshop manufactures their miniatures in the UK by the sister / mother company (not sure which) called Citadel Miniatures. They have total control of their product end to end almost. Battletech is all over the place, the rights scattered to the winds, so no one can maximise on the brand. Basically I just don't see Battletech ever getting super big in it's current state. It needs a backer who can come in and bring it all back together. Get all the rights back into one portfolio and invest.

Battletech is cheaper, but it seems to me Catalyst make most of their money via rule and sourcebooks, not the miniatures. Games Workshop makes a lot of money from it's miniatures. Their game design supports you spending money. In Battletech you can play happy with 4 - 12 Battlemechs, how much does that cost you £20-25? A space marine tactical squad costs £20, Then you want a tank, a dreadnought, terminator squad. A small point army costs about £150-250. It's expensive right, but the idea is to make things about as expensive as kids can afford. You'll build up your army over time and spend that money. Playing a big Battletech TT game can take a LONG TIME, Warhammer has refined their rules a lot, bring down game times, it's more accessible.

Sorry I'm not trying to beat on Battletech and say Warhammer 40K is better. I'd wish Battletech was every bit as pop as it's counterparts. It's such a fantastic game world, I love it more than any other. I just feel more like I wish someone would come a long and make everything right in the world that is the Battletech franchise, give it the investment and love it deserves!

[Frantic Pryde]

I think it's popularity is growing again. My TT gaming group went from just me and a few friends to quite a few of us who meet at least monthly at the FLGS.

[Kudzu]

John Clavell, on 30 November 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

Games Workshop don't make many metal parts anymore, they phased much of it out. The reason was that they could basically get better, and more detailed models from the plastic injection. I remember reading about it. I'm not an expert on Injection moulding so I certainly can't say what the pros and cons are with any kinda of authority. But you can certainly see the difference in detail on the models.

And yes, Catalyst don't make the models. Games Workshop manufactures their miniatures in the UK by the sister / mother company (not sure which) called Citadel Miniatures. They have total control of their product end to end almost. Battletech is all over the place, the rights scattered to the winds, so no one can maximise on the brand. Basically I just don't see Battletech ever getting super big in it's current state. It needs a backer who can come in and bring it all back together. Get all the rights back into one portfolio and invest.

Battletech is cheaper, but it seems to me Catalyst make most of their money via rule and sourcebooks, not the miniatures. Games Workshop makes a lot of money from it's miniatures. Their game design supports you spending money. In Battletech you can play happy with 4 - 12 Battlemechs, how much does that cost you £20-25? A space marine tactical squad costs £20, Then you want a tank, a dreadnought, terminator squad. A small point army costs about £150-250. It's expensive right, but the idea is to make things about as expensive as kids can afford. You'll build up your army over time and spend that money. Playing a big Battletech TT game can take a LONG TIME, Warhammer has refined their rules a lot, bring down game times, it's more accessible.

Sorry I'm not trying to beat on Battletech and say Warhammer 40K is better. I'd wish Battletech was every bit as pop as it's counterparts. It's such a fantastic game world, I love it more than any other. I just feel more like I wish someone would come a long and make everything right in the world that is the Battletech franchise, give it the investment and love it deserves!

I play both (though as far as GW is concerned I prefer Fantasy to 40k) and I love them for different reasons. Homogenizing BT to make it more simple would really take away from the feel of it, IMO. They tried it with that clix version and it was terrible.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Atlas3060, on 30 November 2011 - 11:55 AM, said:

Technically Iron Wind Metals handles the miniatures, not Catalyst, also they aren't lead anymore that stopped I think during the early 90s?

"Crafted in Lead free Pewter" from the back of a Ral Partha box (which Iorn Wind Metals own i think)

Frantic Pryde, on 30 November 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

I think it's popularity is growing again. My TT gaming group went from just me and a few friends to quite a few of us who meet at least monthly at the FLGS.

cool, good to see its still popular in flordia, hope your community contiunes to grow

John Clavell, on 30 November 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

Games Workshop don't make many metal parts anymore, they phased much of it out. The reason was that they could basically get better, and more detailed models from the plastic injection. I remember reading about it. I'm not an expert on Injection moulding so I certainly can't say what the pros and cons are with any kinda of authority. But you can certainly see the difference in detail on the models.

And yes, Catalyst don't make the models. Games Workshop manufactures their miniatures in the UK by the sister / mother company (not sure which) called Citadel Miniatures. They have total control of their product end to end almost. Battletech is all over the place, the rights scattered to the winds, so no one can maximise on the brand. Basically I just don't see Battletech ever getting super big in it's current state. It needs a backer who can come in and bring it all back together. Get all the rights back into one portfolio and invest.

Battletech is cheaper, but it seems to me Catalyst make most of their money via rule and sourcebooks, not the miniatures. Games Workshop makes a lot of money from it's miniatures. Their game design supports you spending money. In Battletech you can play happy with 4 - 12 Battlemechs, how much does that cost you £20-25? A space marine tactical squad costs £20, Then you want a tank, a dreadnought, terminator squad. A small point army costs about £150-250. It's expensive right, but the idea is to make things about as expensive as kids can afford. You'll build up your army over time and spend that money. Playing a big Battletech TT game can take a LONG TIME, Warhammer has refined their rules a lot, bring down game times, it's more accessible.

Sorry I'm not trying to beat on Battletech and say Warhammer 40K is better. I'd wish Battletech was every bit as pop as it's counterparts. It's such a fantastic game world, I love it more than any other. I just feel more like I wish someone would come a long and make everything right in the world that is the Battletech franchise, give it the investment and love it deserves!

yeah i see what your saying about the rights for CBT being scattered to every corner of the world makeing it more difficult for things to get done. would be nice for it to be under one umbrella again, yeah i love CBT to my very core just like any other CBT fan on the interwebs like i said earlier, i was just curious as to hear peoples thaught on the popularity.

Kudzu, on 30 November 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

I play both (though as far as GW is concerned I prefer Fantasy to 40k) and I love them for different reasons. Homogenizing BT to make it more simple would really take away from the feel of it, IMO. They tried it with that clix version and it was terrible.

yeah MWDA was pritty bad :\ didnt stop me wasting money on boosters trying to get better mechs all i got was agrocultral mechs >< until they did the big boxsets.

so CBT fanbase seems to be growing slowly but steadily thanks your views guys look forward to more.

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 30 November 2011 - 04:18 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

The new introbox sets for CBT are incredibly hot items. I don't think my local game store has been able to keep them on the shelf for any period of time.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

cool to hear it been trying to get a hold of it myself but seems to be out of stock was curious if anyone had tried this? http://ironwindmetals.com/d/node/1626 i downloaded and quickly skimmed through, and it seems pritty streamlined for CBT.

[Orzorn]

SMDMadCow, on 30 November 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:

The new introbox sets for CBT are incredibly hot items. I don't think my local game store has been able to keep them on the shelf for any period of time.

Hell, even the ones at my local Wal-Mart disappeared very quickly. They sold like hotcakes all around the place, from what I heard. It was a smashing success.

[John Clavell]

Kudzu, on 30 November 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

I play both (though as far as GW is concerned I prefer Fantasy to 40k) and I love them for different reasons. Homogenizing BT to make it more simple would really take away from the feel of it, IMO. They tried it with that clix version and it was terrible.

No I agree. It does give Battletech most of it's feel on the table. Dark Age is not the way to do it. I don't even wanna think about Dark Age is was such a failed pile of tripe. When I first started playing Warhammer 40k there was a lot of rules, over time GW started to refine them a little, then a few years later they released a big up date, I remember thinking back then it was rubbish. A lot of things got simplfied compared to the old rulebooks. But it did not mess around with core gameplay, it did help streamline and open it up to new people.

Maybe that has happened. Total Warfare was my first Rulebook for Battletech, I've never read or owned the older ones. So it might well be a lot more streamlined than it used to be. This is certainly a passing remark on my part, so I don't expect to be adding anything much with it. Input from someone with a lot more Battletech experience to give a run down on how the rules has changed over the years would be interesting for me to read, and hopefully give my thoughts some meat, or just blow them out of the water

[Adridos]

Well, miniature gaming is popular in UK,because it is a good hobby, but a really expensive one. People have money for it in America, but they do not like it as much as we Europeans do, but we, on the other hand, mostly do not have the financies to do it.


A look at the thing from central Europe.

Edited by Adridos, 01 December 2011 - 04:14 AM.

[Atlas3060]

John Clavell, on 30 November 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

Battletech is cheaper, but it seems to me Catalyst make most of their money via rule and sourcebooks, not the miniatures.

And this is the main truth about Catalyst and the way Battletech works.
It isn't miniatures gaming, it is about selling story. This similiar thread was in the main forums a few years back and the consensus was the main focus for Battletech wasn't pushing minis but pushing the story. The novels, sourcebooks, all that printed stuff was more important while the minis were pretties that helped you play out that Universe.

When reading how Randall, Herb, and the others sell the game they've always focused (quite proudly) on the fact you could play this game for years without ever needing a mini.

Comparing us to Warhammer is like saying why isn't Guild Wars as popular as checkers. The format of games are completely different.

Edited by Atlas3060, 01 December 2011 - 05:51 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Ironwind metals is the best place to get the mini you want as its the source. Bummer for the UK folks though as they have to pay expensive shipping. But at least you cen get the mini or the box set you want.

https://ironwindmeta...store/index.php

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

AdamBaines, on 01 December 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Ironwind metals is the best place to get the mini you want as its the source. Bummer for the UK folks though as they have to pay expensive shipping. But at least you cen get the mini or the box set you want.

https://ironwindmeta...store/index.php

we use Ral Partha Europe, they used to cast the minis until IWM took over, the store is acessible to anyone who can get to liverpool. they used to sell the armorcast resin mechs too until they stopped production

http://www.ralpartha...letech-c-1.html

[Threat Doc]

I think gaming popularity dipped for a bit, about seven years, hitting it's low point about four years ago. However, for the last couple of years I think it's been out of that slump. Remember, role-playing games came after miniature games, and the mini's games were extraordinarily popular for nearly a decade before D&D and the other first-round RP games started coming out. Mini's have managed to maintain, roughly, their popularity for almost five decades, now, and role-playing is not far behind that. The advent of MMORPGs, and MMOs in general, put a hit on both mini's and RP gaming, but those are truly beginning to come back to the fore, now, with the new releases by Catalyst of BattleTech, RedBrick's third edition of Earthdawn, and the relatively new Pathfinder RPG. Warhammer is dipping a bit, but I think the folks who run GW and Black Industries will realize that the more they overprice their toys the more business they will actually lose, and they'll get back in shape and recapture their business.

Other games, such as Palladium Books, Steve Jackson, and R. Talsorian are still chugging along, not really flagging in their popularity, but also not growing at an astonishing rate, and those are the literal backbone of the gaming industry. Now that more and more of the female type players are getting involved with role-playing -mostly, if I understand it correctly, because of the ability to play monsters, be seduced by a vampire, etc. (shakes head in confusion)-, board gaming, and computer gaming, those markets are going to improve across the board.

As for BattleTech not being as popular as it once was, your friend is absolutely right, but I don't think he's going to continue to be right much longer.

[AdamBaines]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 01 December 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

we use Ral Partha Europe, they used to cast the minis until IWM took over, the store is acessible to anyone who can get to liverpool. they used to sell the armorcast resin mechs too until they stopped production

http://www.ralpartha...letech-c-1.html

Sorry if this was said earlier in the post, but are their own Casts? or do they use the IWM casts? If its their own casts, how is the Quality? I used to love my Ral Partha minis here in the US. I still have quite a few in their original blisters.

EDIT DUH! Sorry I re-read your post and see the answer :-)

Edited by AdamBaines, 01 December 2011 - 08:42 AM.