45 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

I have heard more then a few people on the FRR hub tell me with complete confidence and total conviction that there is a place in drops for support rule mechs that do little no damage.

An example I was given was a mech dedicated to turret killing in CW. But I don't think that is a serious example. My best guess for what kind of mech these people are thinking about is maybe a light with narc and tag, who helps lrm boats get targets. Maybe there are some other roles I am not aware of since I never put a mech in one of ISEN's dropdeck that isn't capable of doing damage.

This brings me to next point I have heard and that is LRM's are good to bring as well, that they just require an experienced hand to use properly. Plus, anyone making a case for a support mech that has narc and tag is obviously also advocating LRMs.

Now I am firmly in the camp of direct fire superiority. I don't think a pilot running LRMs will be as effective as one using direct fire, and I don't believe sacrificing a mech that could be doing damage on its own, to being a support role mech is worth it.

This isn't to say people don't have success with LRMs or even in support role mechs; but that if they were running direct fire mechs they would be more successful.

People can run whatever they want. It's a game and everyone is their own boss. I am not challenging people's right to play these mechs, or anything so absurd. I merely challenging the idea that playing these mechs is equivalent in merit and potential success.

I want to either prove or disprove the argument made to me that these sorts of roles and mechs are just as powerful as direct fire mechs.

If it's true then I need to be shown the truth so I stop arguing against LRMs or support role mechs that do low damage. I would most certainly want to know if I was wrong. And, hopefully, if I can demonstrate they are not as effective - that some players and units will stop arguing that they are and maybe steer some newer members in different directions.

So this is an open challenge to any one in the FRR who genuinely believes that. Especially unit leaders. I would like to take 8-12 of my guys in only direct fire mechs against 8-12 of yours with at least one support role mech, or lrm mechs.

I would like to see what would happen. It is science.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 22 November 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

since MWO turned into a ( a little bit over dramatised but you get the idea)
Call Of Duty like high speed shooter with alpha pin point nuking
you probably be totaly right with your asumption.
Play the older mechwarrior titles and you get the idea behind support roles.
Even in living legends it worked.Maybie you can tell me
how MWO achieved to make a big part of the franchise not working anymore
as they used to do?Is it a good thing?A bad thing?
Honestly i dont care and still beeing able to have fun somehow oO?

[Jarl Dane]

I find your strange block-text writing style strangely appealing.

I've played the older MWO games. Nor is this an argument for or against MWO. Nor is it even an effort to force people to play a certain way.

This is simply an argument about what works in the current game and an an effort to either educate myself or gain acknowledgement from others on it.

[Kin3ticX]

The more non-combat scouts or LRM mechs you add, the more you begin to cripple your overwhelming direct fire. LRMs also suffer from feast or famine. Non-combat roles such as pure scouts have always taken a back seat to lights that can scout just fine & put out damage.

I am not going to say you cant bring even 1 LRM mech to CW. However, as you marginally increase the number of LRM mechs 1 by 1 you begin to screw yourself. Realize that if every player brings 1 LRM mech that this is in sum a whole wave of 'mechs that are more susceptible to total failure.

Regarding direct fire...
On the whole, Alpha tends to trump DPS tanks, but this is not a black and white rule. Dakka ‘mechs such as the DRG-1N, WVR-6R, and JM6-DD are indeed very powerful DPS wise but are also equally as gimmicky, so be careful. They certainly can compliment the goto decks well in reasonable numbers but it is uncertain whether stacking dakka as a central theme is reliable.

The upcoming SRM changes may bring more SRMs into the fold but thats a wait and see thing.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 November 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[SkippyT72]

It's also MAP dependant, I do quite well in LRM/Med laser boat on certain maps, but I would never dream of bringing them on other maps, they do well killing the turrent's and gen's but they do spread damage and I use them more to push back mechs behind cover and help my team with true suppresion and not just staying on that target till they are dead, but I average about 850 damage per drop in that mech so I don't feel too bad when I end the match with 1500 - 1700 damage for the total drop, so it depends on how you and your team feel about the support you actually give them in the drop vs how you like to play.

[crustydog]

Support mechs do have a role, devastating to the enemy if played properly, devastating to your own team if not. Pulling a mech off of the line to enable a support role is effective if it enhances the rest of your team, but that enhancement needs to outweigh the loss of having that extra mech on the line. LRM's can do this on some maps.

The same discussion can be applied to long rang mechs vrs short range brawlers, or assault mechs vrs light mechs - again, the benefit must outweigh the costs, and this relationship changes on different maps... even on attack vrs defense... even in each wave of a given battle.

[Pat Kell]

If the LRM boat moves with the team and stays within 200meters of the very front mech and spots for himself, they can do very well. However, most lrm boats don't like being that close to the front which is precisely why they don't do so well...Bring LRM boats but instruct the pilots to stay close to the front and lock their own targets as much as possible.

[KinLuu]

Indirect fire weapons have one huge advantage. They enable you to support your teammates - almost every time, almost everywhere on the map, regardless of your, or their relative positioning. But this advantage is almost completely nullified by ECM - if there was no ECM in MWO, I would bring a HBK-4J to every CW-drop.

[Pat Kell]

It is nullified by ECM, terrain, movement and the fact that line of sight is required to get the benefits of artemis. I am not saying they are worthless but in the wrong hands (which is 90% of the LRM boats I see) it is next to worthless and puts your front line mechs at a disadvantage. That's just been my experience with most LRM boats...I have seen some that are good with them but it's very few.

[Vellron2005]

OP, here's all the proof you need..

Most drops involve a bunch of mechs with direct fire weapons and a few LRM focused mechs.

I was involved in 3 drops that had those roles reversed. Most dedicated LRM boats with narc and tags, and only a few direct fire mechs.

Out of 3 drops, we lost one, and DECIMATED all on two drops.

Now I'm talking about dropping 10+ mechs with 600+ LRM's, and lights with tags, narc and LRM's or Lasers.

First drop was a flat 12:0 Win.

Second drop was a 12:3 Win.

Third drop was a 8:12 Loss.

How are those results any different than a normal direct fire drop?

LRM are a weapon with the most counters, but when used effectively, and in the hands of skilled pilots.. they show you WHY they need those counters.. because they decimate.

And, YES, they have a role in a well balanced drop..

[KinLuu]

IMHO, terrain and movement are only soft counters to LRMs, while ECM hard counters them.

You can not stay in terrain cover and fight/push effectively, while you can easily stay in ECM cover while doing so.

[Bud Crue]

I think people are missing the point of the OP: he wants you to accept his challenge for an in game "test" of the assertion that:
"I don't think a pilot running LRMs will be as effective as one using direct fire, and I don't believe sacrificing a mech that could be doing damage on its own, to being a support role mech is worth it."

So while all your anecdotes and theoretical assertions regarding the use of support configs are just lovely. The OP is not going to be interested unless you are willing to put your mechs where your mouth is and accept his challenge.

On a related note: I think this whole comparison of "support" vs "direct fire" thing is a bit disingenuous as map and player skill can make as much if not more of a difference as mech load out. If we are going to stick with irrelevant anecdotes: there are people who have gotten "ace of spades" in locusts. Does that make small pulse lasers superior to other weapons? Locusts better than all other mechs? No. But maybe for that pilot, and that game they were just perfect.

General rules in this game seem to have a way having an awful lot of exceptions. That's what makes it fun and challenging.

So keep on fighting with mixed load outs and trying mixed role companies. Take on the OP and show him what that Narc Raven and few LRM builds can do. You might or might not win, but give it a try because it just might be more fun than yet another match of laser vomit.

[Sjorpha]

I have yet to see evidence that LRM decks can beat comparably good direct fire teams, I'm also interested to see examples of it being done.

I've seen LRM advocates posting screenshots of doing well in pug matches or LRM teams doing well pugstomping, but never seen it as a working strategy in a competitive setup. I might just have missed it though.

When facing LRM heavy teams with a coordinated group all I see is free kills, to be honest. It's like: "Ok guys they are going heavy on LRMs so we'll outgun them as soon as we see them. CHARGE!"

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 November 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Bashfulsalamander]

[Khereg]

I think Mech the Dane has heard all the arguments and has done all the thought experiments. What he wants now a full-on test of the various ideas. Get a private lobby, bring your ideal support configuration and start whacking each other for 3 - 5 matches. See who consistently wins.

Ideally, the group that takes the support side of this little test has skills and abilities similar to ISEN to help nullify any skill differential that may skew the results.

So, who's up for it? 1stH? -SO-? Somebody else in FRR?

Mech, you know we in -MS- take the direct fire approach almost exclusively or I'd be up for organizing something. Maybe we could find someone to runt he dreaded lurms and give it our all? You might want to talk to your buddies in SLR and see what they say. I'll help out if available, though my lurming skills are pitiful.

[Crockdaddy]

I hunger for more LRMs. Bring them.

[Fiona Marshe]

Its one of those odd-ball issues; if you *know* the enemy are LRM heavy, it is possible to get close and brawl without major losses. The issue is finding that out early enough (scouts need to do their job!).

In "balanced" play, I find 2 medium LRM boats and 1 heavy LRM boat per company about right. They also need to be within direct-fire range of a push. The big advantage is throwing those couple of extra points of damage so they die 1-2 salvoes earlier than fighting just the brawlers. This keeps your brawl line alive and dishing out damage, which forces 'combat loss grouping' on the enemy faster than your own forces.

Edited by Fiona Marshe, 23 November 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[shameless]

i'd be willing to help with this test.

[_____]

A bad player in a support mech is better than the same bad player in direct fire. A support mech doesn't need to play with defense in mind most of the time and his offensive-oriented action is reduced to clicking somewhere in a large area on the screen (LRM or TAG) or simply looking at an enemy (spotter), essentially minimizing the mistakes a bad player can make.

A good player in direct fire is better than a good player in support because he can click a smaller area on the screen quickly (better aim) and plays with defensive positioning and actions in mind while continuing with offensive-oriented actions.

[-Vompo-]

I was about to write about what BlackhawkSC already wrote.

From my experience you can do well with an lrm boat in cw but you need to be good. Almost everytime that player would have done better in a direct fire mech. Not always but most of the time. I personally wouldn't take any lrm mechs for attack but I might take one for defence. Few sneaky uav's and the lrm mech can devastate few enemies. Especially boreal vault offers no cover against lrms once the fight starts within the walls. Other maps offer too much protection for the attackers that an lrm boat can play to it's strenghts.