41 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

Bluten, on 10 July 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

^ This. Simply knowing where the enemy is doesn't mean you're going to hit him with with your lasers or autocannons. Having the enemy GLOW BRIGHT RED in a dark BLUE environment will help SIGNIFICANTLY. Haven't you ever played AvP2 and used a Predator vision mode? It makes an extreme visual and aiming difference.

Honestly looking at the video even cool mechs seemed to stand out pretty well from the background and didn't seem hard to spot, so I don't think you will need a light mech to 'spot' for you with flamers, though they will be handy to push that K1 Catapault into shutdown after firing those PPC's.

[Buckwylde]

A flamer has the range and damage of a machine gun. It also adds 3 points of heat to the target (the same as firing a medium laser I think). According to the rule books (though I'm unaware of its implementation in MWO) it is supposed to set wooded areas ablaze and create obscuring smoke. 'Mechs in the effected area would gain extra heat and the area would be impassable to infantry. It also does not use ammo since it is fed by the plasma from the reactor. It requires an energy hardpoint.

The thermal view is a neat addition and I like it.

As for its tactical use as a target painter... It has been stated that the NARC missile beacon and TAG target painters will be in the game at launch. Also the C³ system is supposed to be there for enhanced target sharing. All of these devices will allow to-hit benefits far beyond the 180m (I think) that a flamer would operate to. If that does not do it for you, there is zoom mode to let you get a closeup view of the target.

If you want to get close and help your team's ability to hit a target, then equip a NARC system, get close enough (using speed and cover) stick the beacon on them, and get back to cover. If you just stand there trying to melt the snow off of a 'mech in the hopes that your team will A) have thermal vision unlocked in the pilot tree B ) have thermal vision mods plugged in and C) have thermal vision turned on at the right moment, your still probably going to be so close to the enemy that you will get hit by friendly fire on top of the enemy wrecking you with higher damage weapons from range.

The speed that lets a light 'mech get to close range with an enemy is the majority of its survivability. To sit there at close range, not moving, will remove your survivability and cost your team a scout 'mech.

I really hope I don't see people doing this kind of stuff in game. Surely some will try it, but if it doesn't work the first couple times, please do your team a favor and put it away. Since physics and knockdown mechanics are in the game, if someone tries this crap on me I will just walk into them and knock them on their keister. Then I will alpha them while they attempt to stand back up. If they have successfully raised my heat level, then I may temporarily shut down from heat after registering a kill. The shutdown may even help me break contact with his team but that's something to discover through play.

[Ninjawolf]

if the pilot can die from too much heat in this game then flamers en mass can be a nasty surprise. Flamers in general though can be useful if you know a mech is running hot, a few flamer hits may send it into shutdown and that is one less mech shooting at you and your team mates for a period of time. if you are really good or really lucky a mech like the Firestarter could conceivably keep an Awsome locked down until your team is ready to deal with it.


can you tell I am planning some BBQ's once I get into the game

[SteelWarrior]

Haydin, on 10 July 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

And how about some inferno SRM's while we're at it!

do want inferno rounds......very much want.

[Xandre Blackheart]

4 flamers is 12 more heat. 2 salvos is 24 heat, and 3 is shutdown at 30+. That's on a 0 heat mech, and most people won't be at 0 heat, so it looks like a 4 flamer jenner will be a viable build. Especially with a narc beacon addon.

Get in, tag them, shut them down.

[Buckwylde]

Xandre Blackheart, on 10 July 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

4 flamers is 12 more heat. 2 salvos is 24 heat, and 3 is shutdown at 30+. That's on a 0 heat mech, and most people won't be at 0 heat, so it looks like a 4 flamer jenner will be a viable build. Especially with a narc beacon addon.

Get in, tag them, shut them down.

Whoa, slow down there Nelly... Do note that Battlemechs are equipped with fusion engines. Fusion engines come with 10 heat sinks built in to them and will dissipate 10 units of heat per unit time. This means that 4 flamers would only apply 2 heat that the reactor its self could not dissipate if the rate of fire is equal to the timestep used in the game for heat loss. In other words, timestep 1 would bring the target up 12 heat points. Timestep 2 (assuming the target took no actions) would end in 14 heat, and so on, assuming the target 'mech had no additional heatsinks but the ones built in to his reactor. A 'mech with several heat-producing weapons will often have extra heat sinks to deal with that extra heat too. If you're just standing there flaming someone because you have to be so close for them to work, it's very likely that the person you're attacking with showy jets of flame will consider you both a larger threat than you are and an easy target. Playing with fire still carries risks in the 3rd millennium. Turning around and blasting you may cause your target to shut down because the additional heat you've added to him, but you would be heavily damaged or worse for your efforts. He could also walk into you and knock you over for only 1 additional heat.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Buckwylde, on 11 July 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Whoa, slow down there Nelly... Do note that Battlemechs are equipped with fusion engines. Fusion engines come with 10 heat sinks built in to them and will dissipate 10 units of heat per unit time. This means that 4 flamers would only apply 2 heat that the reactor its self could not dissipate if the rate of fire is equal to the timestep used in the game for heat loss. In other words, timestep 1 would bring the target up 12 heat points. Timestep 2 (assuming the target took no actions) would end in 14 heat, and so on, assuming the target 'mech had no additional heatsinks but the ones built in to his reactor. A 'mech with several heat-producing weapons will often have extra heat sinks to deal with that extra heat too. If you're just standing there flaming someone because you have to be so close for them to work, it's very likely that the person you're attacking with showy jets of flame will consider you both a larger threat than you are and an easy target. Playing with fire still carries risks in the 3rd millennium. Turning around and blasting you may cause your target to shut down because the additional heat you've added to him, but you would be heavily damaged or worse for your efforts. He could also walk into you and knock you over for only 1 additional heat.

Tagging him with a narc is the most important part of that build. The flamers are to distract him from the incoming missiles so it really does work better if the target is focused on the jenner flaming him up. From what we've seen about how heat works in the video it's not timestamped, it's dynamic heat with a steady dissipation rate based on heat sinks. Flamers are a defensive measure to allow a short range mech like that to limit the target's weapon fire.

As for avoiding being walked into, well that's what piloting is about, because standing still isn't what I would recommend in that situation. Flamers have the same range as small lasers so there is a little bit of margin for error (90m worth actually).

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 11 July 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Graewulf, on 10 July 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

^This +1

Inferno missiles didn't exist yet to my knowledge. Reminder this game is only featuring technology that was around at the time in which it was based, which is 3049. Technology is very primitive at the time and I think the only missiles is basic SRMs, 1 Streak SRM 2, and basic LRMs.

Tincan Nightmare, on 10 July 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Honestly looking at the video even cool mechs seemed to stand out pretty well from the background and didn't seem hard to spot, so I don't think you will need a light mech to 'spot' for you with flamers, though they will be handy to push that K1 Catapault into shutdown after firing those PPC's.

Exactly. Roosting enemy Mechs with a flamethrower will overheat them if they try to use their energy weapons. This will result in them being shutdown and rendered useless. By the time they cool off and start back up he enemy team will have ripped them apart.

[Spheroid]

Bluten, on 11 July 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Inferno missiles didn't exist yet to my knowledge. Reminder this game is only featuring technology that was around at the time in which it was based, which is 3049. Technology is very primitive at the time and I think the only missiles is basic SRMs, 1 Streak SRM 2, and basic LRMs.

Actually infernos are ancient weapons that debuted shortly after the invention of SRM technology back in the 24th century. I believe them to be much better than the standard flamer, but I will wait and see how they handle the ammo cookoff risk in game.

Edited by Spheroid, 11 July 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Xune]

The only reason Infernos arent widly used in Mechs is the part with the stuff being higfly unstable and a hit might set YOU aflame and not the guy you wanted to hit.

[Scorpioneldar]

hmm if i used a flamer i MW4 version i would run and gun pop out hit and hide again rinse and repeat

if we mean like the xbox game i would bathe him in flames while running around him in a circle at 90 to 135 KPH adjusting to try and maintain a radius (for my circle) just inside of my max range on that flamer

the target would always be the central point on that spin
theoretically this means i would stay out of the way of colliding with the big guy in practice it would depend on how good i am vs how good he is as a pilot and also on just how fast he can track and fire those weapons... of course hopefully by then your long range support is incoming and i am breaking off to escape the incoming LRM's or other long range fire power and not dancing with mr big and mean for extended periods of time...

of course i might be blasted before i even get the narc beacon off and i perfer to play cats or uzi any way... hey is uziel in game? or is that mech later than 3050

i love the mad cat but he is clan so... maybe in the future???

[Grajo]

Akito272, on 10 July 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Sinse we are having enviroments were termic vision is needed to fight wouldnt make sense to have flammers in the scouts so they make enemy mech more visible to the termal scans?

Also a nice way to stop laser boats!

Instead of take flamers to mark up some mechs try and pick up a NARC and mark them to "death by LRM", it will be far more useful

[Zerostone]

Is the Firestarter going to be in the game?

[Otto Cannon]

[Jukebox1986]

Haydin, on 10 July 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

And how about some inferno SRM's while we're at it!

I want some too.
At best just the first load! So i do not have to care about the ammunition explosion...

[Papertarget]

You are in your cockpit and hear a "thunk". "Stupid scout fired a dud at me..." Suddenly your warning systems light up as 3 Cats fire a storm of missiles at you from extreme range. The Raven pilot starts looking for a new target for his Narc Beacon.

*Why fire a flamer, when you can TAG them?

[xZaOx]

I plan on flaming assaults from the back till they shutdown, then death by a million papercutting them with my pew pew lasers. Shhh dont tell them!

[Solarisjock]

becasue the Cats should easily be able to see the thermal signature of the mech sized tikki torch? also, if movement gets effected by heat like it should, suddenly that inferno'd mech cant dodge those catapults missiles....

[Papertarget]

Ah. But even lit like a sun at night, it doesn't mean that the MISSILES would find it easier to hit, just the Cats being able to target. With a NARC Beacon, you have a much greater chance of the MISSILES hitting, because the beacon is feeding targeting data directly to the onboard targeting for them. Same as a TAG. It fires a laser which is then read as the aiming point by the missiles, not the Cat.

[Akito272]

You are mixing things. Both the narc and the flammers are needed. The narc will make you allies hit more and the flammer will stop the enemy from easily firing back to the scout or anyone.

Also if you have 2/3 scouts they can work after initial engagement to shut down critial mechs of the enemy team so that the will lose the fight.
A big heat signature could hide smaller one so a scout in 0 visibility enviroment could use the enemy mech he lights as shields from other enemys. Confusing the other team and given your guys a chance of clean shots!