28 replies to this topic

[Conjure]

I play a a fair amount of FPS games. COD, BLR, Planetside, etc. Those are the games you can rush around, headshot for quick kills or with the right weapon build/ skill get a 2-3 shot kill in a matter of seconds. That's a lot of fun. I love those games. But its FAST paced. You can rush across a map in half a min to find an opposing player. You get him or he gets you. Should he get you it's an immediate re spawn and your off to another quick go of it.

MWO however.... FFS i don't need to explain this. Its ******** having a "Thinking mans FPS" that mimics the FPS norm in few shot Kills. I read something the other day; we should just get rid of components and have a health bar hanging over every mechs head. I almost agree. The mechanics of component destruction.. I can't even call it broken broken, its non existent.

I make my own high alpha builds to compete and its not even fun. If i want to kill some one it 2 shots I'll play a real FPS.

-Rant....

Edited by Conjure, 25 November 2015 - 12:29 AM.

[TheCharlatan]

1v1, fights have a decent TTK, if both pilots know how to spread damage.
In one of my last matches i dueled a Hellbringer in my crab, and it was a very long fight (20+ secs, i think, mind that we were both damaged at the start of the 1v1), while we both spread damage as long as we could (i lost, but it was fun, with components flying all over the place).
The problem is that thanks to the pin-point, long range nature of lasers (and to a lesser degree, gauss) you can crest a hill and eat half the enemy's team alphas, and die or get cored instantly.
There are a lot of ways to reduce this (CoF, convergence, heat-scale, less mechs in a match, probably more things)... but until now, PGI has not adressed this problem.

[jaxjace]

Actually, if we were being like in table top, TTK would be EVEN LOWER keep in mind, the technical armor values have been DOUBLED in this game. Mechs really are that fragile. You arent superman, you are a war machine, that is designed to fight in wars against other war machines for the sole purpose being that you are the best counter to another war machine.

[adamts01]

Component destruction is awesome. I'm in Mist Lynx 2mpl mode tonight. I can't solo anything and don't have the firepower or armor to poke and trade till someone dies. I have to distract the enemy for my team and assist them with kills by pinpointing weak components and either finishing the kill or crippling them. Yes, my cheetah with it's 36 point alpha, better speed, more armor, better hardpoints, hitboxes and almost as good jets is far superior, but damage wise, we come out even because of how it gets focused and I don't. There are other ways to play the game.

[Moldur]

I once had a 3v1 isolated from everyone else in a damaged AC against 2 other ACs and a Timberwolf. The fight lasted a good 2 or 3 minutes and I finally went down after having killed both the ACs. It was one of my best moments.

It's an extreme example, but the point is there are factors besides raw damage output when consider TTK.

Peeking, maneuvering, rolling, and intelligently playing the situation in general is what let me get the net win in that situation, and that's no different from a lot of MWO. There is much more than just looking at numbers, or running into the open, getting destroyed, and saying the TTK is wrong.

MWO is punishing for mistakes. Most mechs are too slow to extricate themselves from bad situations (without sustaining heavy damage at the very least) and I don't think that's bad.

No, you can't re-enact the MW4: Vengeance intro, and that's good.

There's always going to be tweaking and balance changes, but the game will always be about reading the situation right first and foremost.

Here's the MW4 intro in case anyone forgot.

[adamts01]

I just had a pretty good one in my 2mpl Mist Lynx. 638 damage and a kill in Canyon. My best was 7 kills (the last 5 solo) with almost 800 damage in the same mech. You've seriously got to work that thing and play smart. I love that mech. It doesn't have to be all high alphas.

[Doman Hugin]

TT long range laser duel = nearly always 10+ on 2d6 for an average pilot to even hit, so 3/4 of your weapons wont even hit and the rest hit random locations.

So not a good comparision to MWO TTK

On the other hand comparing AC's is quite like TT, as it's like rolling a dice hiting one and then another to see where your damage lands

[pwnface]

Doman Hugin, on 25 November 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

On the other hand comparing AC's is quite like TT, as it's like rolling a dice hiting one and then another to see where your damage lands

TIL AC rounds land randomly rather than being aimed.

Just because you have to lead and it's harder to aim, doesn't mean it's random like a dice roll.

[Doman Hugin]

Sorry was talking about AC's (Arctic Cheater's) as in the above post not AC's (Auto Cannons).
And was partialy jokeing.

Edited by Doman Hugin, 25 November 2015 - 04:54 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I hope the people asking for longer TTK realise that longer TTK amplifies the power of focus fire and the tendency of matches snowballing into stomps. It is in fact the relatively long TKK that causes these things to be so prevalent in MWO.

It's easy to understand if you consider that every increase in TKK increases the relative power to defence difference between a 1v1 and 1vX.

Let's say TTK is 10 seconds in a 1v1. That means a 1v2 has a TTK of 5 seconds versus 20 seconds. If you increase TTK to 20 seconds you now have a relative TTK of 10 vs 40 seconds.

The relation may superficially look like it's still 1 to 4, you need to outperfom the enemies by 400% to win a 1vs2 in both cases. But since it is much easier to outplay 2 mechs for 16 seconds than it is to outplay them for 31 seconds, you have for all intents and purposes weakened the underdog and amplified the snowball effect.

I actually like this effect of high TTK, it means the game becomes more team oriented and punishes mistakes harsher. But many people seem to be under the delusion that higher TTK would give you more individual freedom when actually the opposite is true.

Edited by Sjorpha, 25 November 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Darky101]

Off topic:
OMG these intros give me the goose bumps,

loved these games and the atmosphere they had.
If there wasnt an event id hop back in to MW4 singleplayer right now.

[adamts01]

Sjorpha, on 25 November 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

I actually like this effect of high TTK, it means the game becomes more team oriented and punishes mistakes harsher. But many people seem to be under the delusion that higher TTK would give you more individual freedom when actually the opposite is true.

You said 'team," lol. Between quirks and hard points, chassis keep getting more powerful. The game has been slowly inching towards 1 shotting mechs. Instead of buffing weapons to bring them up to par, I want penalties to nerf laser boats, such as cof if too many direct fire weapons are fired at once, or addit8nal ghost heat. You're thinking we're asking for two mechs to be able to slug it out for minutes. The game has literally gotten to 1 shot for lights, 2 for mediums and 3 for heavies. That's just a little too COD for me.

[Sjorpha]

adamts01, on 25 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

You said 'team," lol. Between quirks and hard points, chassis keep getting more powerful. The game has been slowly inching towards 1 shotting mechs. Instead of buffing weapons to bring them up to par, I want penalties to nerf laser boats, such as cof if too many direct fire weapons are fired at once, or addit8nal ghost heat. You're thinking we're asking for two mechs to be able to slug it out for minutes. The game has literally gotten to 1 shot for lights, 2 for mediums and 3 for heavies. That's just a little too COD for me.

Yes I agree with that, I want higher TTK as well.

I was just pointing out that high TTK also amplifies the benefit of focus fire and increases snowballing.

[oldradagast]

jaxjace, on 25 November 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

Actually, if we were being like in table top, TTK would be EVEN LOWER keep in mind, the technical armor values have been DOUBLED in this game. Mechs really are that fragile. You arent superman, you are a war machine, that is designed to fight in wars against other war machines for the sole purpose being that you are the best counter to another war machine.

Except in table top, it took a lot longer in real-world time to resolve things, adding to the sense that the battle takes time, and people typically had several mechs per team, so losing one to bad luck didn't make you go sit in the corner the rest of a match. It's not unlike a D&D battle that takes two hours to resolve real time, but only 10 rounds = 1 minute = to resolve in game-time.

Long story short, TTK is still way too low in this game, and pinpoint alpha weapons are too powerful. Many suggestions have been offered, in particular a cone of fire or some convergence changes, and the closest we've gotten is "ghost range" on lasers, a mechanic that made no sense and which still did nothing to address the overall pinpoint problem... because lasers are just a sub-set of it.

[Tarogato]

adamts01, on 25 November 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Component destruction is awesome. I'm in Mist Lynx 2mpl mode tonight. I can't solo anything and don't have the firepower or armor to poke and trade till someone dies. I have to distract the enemy for my team and assist them with kills by pinpointing weak components and either finishing the kill or crippling them. Yes, my cheetah with it's 36 point alpha, better speed, more armor, better hardpoints, hitboxes and almost as good jets is far superior, but damage wise, we come out even because of how it gets focused and I don't. There are other ways to play the game.

Oh, you were that MLX that was chasing my Cheetah around at the end of the match on Canyon Network about an hour ago! That was a fun chase man, you had me sweating. You probably could have legged me if you kept at it.

[adamts01]

Tarogato, on 25 November 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Oh, you were that MLX that was chasing my Cheetah around at the end of the match on Canyon Network about an hour ago! That was a fun chase man, you had me sweating. You probably could have legged me if you kept at it.

Yeah, good times. It was underdog night for me tonight. It's only 16 damage a pop but it adds up and it runs cool. I had a couple matches over 600 in it tonight. Good times indeed.

I don't know if you got my paper doll or not but you had me pretty cored by the end if that chase. I kept telling the fatties to stick together but when you killed the one I tried to play it safe with that thunderbolt in the corner. Good shooting on your part. You do well in that thing.

Edited by adamts01, 25 November 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[adamts01]

Sjorpha, on 25 November 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

I was just pointing out that high TTK also amplifies the benefit of focus fire and increases snowballing.

I do agree with you, to a point. I LOLd because focus fire really only works for teams. Group que is normally as puggish or puggier than solo. Without real communication you're only going to get focused if you're an idiot and just walk in to the other team. In that case you're dead anyway. But yeah, lower ttk makes the evil 12 mans even more evil.

[KahnWongFuChung]

LOLOLOLOL (keep in mind, the technical armor values have been DOUBLED in this game. )

First off this is a LIE!!!!!!!! it never happened PGI Doubled the armor numbers in the mechlab UI but never really applied it to actual game play.

You can test this like many of us have by stripping all armor on your mech and going into battles your TTK remains the same with full armor or no armor. MWO is a FPS with a problem mechs are weak fragile and stupid dying so quick even under moderate weapons fire.

Past PC MechWarrior games had the TTK right with full armor your mech could last several minutes even under heavy fire not a few stupid seconds. MWO was going to be a more realistic mech game but the DEVS in there grand E-TARD-SPORT vision made it a Stupid FPS.

You can see how the old DEVS from past PC MechWarrior games got it right by downloading the MechWarrior4 Mercenaries Demo and playing it with friends it is a much better game than MWO for fun , ttk and the mechs move like mechs not some COD paper doll with a mech skin.

Edited by KahnWongFuChung, 25 November 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[William Pryde]

I personally wanted a TTK based off of Battletech damage, then I played this game and decided I was glad they doubled the armor values. I'm fine with it as is, but I also don't have too much experience.

[adamts01]

KahnWongFuChung, on 25 November 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

You can test this like many of us have by stripping all armor on your mech and going into battles your TTK remains the same with full armor or no armor.

Can I please have some of the crack you're smoking?