27 replies to this topic

[ZenFool]

I have now played CW as a unit, as a pug, as clans, as inner sphere. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

1st things first. CW is an autowin in a group.

2nd. CW is autowin as clan v IS UNLESS rule one.

3rd. ANY GAME, no matter how it is played, will anger people unless it is close.


Rule number one and two govern rule number three. I love CW. I want to see everyone Qing for it. I tried very hard to convince people of it's awesome gameplay. They all told me rule number one and two.

No amount of balancing will work if people feel like they are wasting their time. I know we are all playing a game, but that doesn't negate the fact. I can play five CoD games in the time it takes to Q and play CW. If I know going in that I will lose, why would I spend 30 minutes in Q plus 30 minutes in game losing?

We all know pug v group that group wins. The groups(and me when I was in a unit) would say "join a group". Easy solution that obviously isn't going to work. The units enjoy their easy win and don't actually want you to do this.

The pugs say, don't let groups play versus us!!!!!!!!! Having played pug, I must say, pug v pug is a blast and always leads to good games. Having played in a unit, waiting two hours for a game is NOT an option.

Does anyone have a solution that doesn't insult 1/2 the game population?

[iLLcapitan]

1. Exaggeration
2. Exaggeration
3. Exaggeration

edit: 3. is an exaggeration too

Edited by iLLcapitan, 19 November 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

I would suggest adding the tonnage limit concept from the non-CW group queue to CW.

You're in a 12 man, everyone on your team combined has to come in under the limit, so no 250 tons for you. You're a pug, enjoy your 400-ton drop deck.

Easy peasy. Heck, I'd show up solo to CW if I could do a 360 ton deck.

[sycocys]

WVAnonymous, on 19 November 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

I would suggest adding the tonnage limit concept from the non-CW group queue to CW.

Like the idea, but Cheetah, Cheetah, Hellbringer, Stormcrow x12 - doesn't sound like anything interesting to play against.

[patataman]

1, 2) No, it's an autowin for teams that play together and comunicate when the enemy doesn't. I've seen plenty of IS pugs defeating clan premades, or at the very least being a worthy oponent by using comunication and following a plan.

3) Really? I see multiple "GG", "WP", etc at the end of most matches, from winners and losers.

CW has a number of flaws that make this game mode unpopular for many people. I don't like the DOTA style maps and would prefer big open ones where you can surprise the other team by coming from unexpected areas. Also, the maps need different objectives that affect how the match develops. And more game modes. And more maps, why the regular maps were not adapted to CW (and viceversa) i can't understand. And logistics. Wait times can be bad sometimes, but that's a population problem and can only be solved by adressing the real problems and making the mode more atractive (i think the increased rewards and last events helped at that).

How about giving information about the teams in the queue? Show a marker in the queue if the next team is going to contain a big group and allow the oponents to leave before the match starts (at the cost of loyalty points).

Rant part:
The tools are there, chat, LFG, in game comms, each faction has a TS server, big units usually announce their TS server at the lobby hoping that the pugs in their team join them and play WITH them. There is no reason not to use those tools to win or play a game as close as possible. I don't see how this could be insulting for half the players. If the "evil premades" put more effort into the game by using comms, having a plan, focusing fire, train together, organicing their drop decks, etc... why shouldn't they be rewarded for that effort?

To do well in CW you need to know a "default" plan for every map, and come up with new plans to react to the enemy. You have to play agresively and together, that means following the orders, and sometimes sacrifice yourself for the greater good (like being the point of the spear and knowing your mech will die with very low damage, but the other 11 mechs in your back will reach the enemy fresh and will stomp the enemy). If you are new to the mode, it's going to take a while to adapt, and you will be killed a lot at the start of that period. But then you will know what kind of strategies work and what doesn't work.

You can't improve if you never play against better oponents. I find playing as pug vs a group challenging, and when a pug group does well vs a premade by using teamwork, it's quite satisfactory. (even in a defeat).

Edited by patataman, 19 November 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[ZenFool]

So the solution is "get good"? Come on, the population at large has already rejected this. The really sad thing is, when numbers are up the chances of pugging into an organized group goes down. You might hit them once in an evening, take your lumps, then move on. As it is, you know the dreaded 12 man is somewhere in the Q.

Oh, and the idea that its "challenging" to get roflstomped is...Whatever. Maybe some people do enjoy it, but obviously not many. The game mode has been effectively dead for half a year.

[FaithBombCRNA]

The suggested "solution" has always been "git gud noobs or get rekt". Unfortunately this "solution" has given us a dwindling CW population...

[Kin3ticX]

OP, got all that wrong and then some. Those rules you made up don't make any sense at all.

The outcome of the match depends on the makeup of each team. If it is lopsided the techbase has no impact at all.

12-mans are not autowin but the odds are stacked in favor of pre-match preparation and teamwork

Edited by Kin3ticX, 19 November 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[ZenFool]

Clan tech has been and still is, despite the harsh nerfs, better. The only thing bad I can say about clan tech is the extremely limited selection of viable mechs. I'm sure some would argue that, but it seems glaringly obvious. Oh, and one screenshot(featuring a five man group and a two man group of very good players) does not negate the fact that groups have a field day with pugs. I can't believe anyone is arguing the fact that groups win nearly every game versus pugs.
I guess I'm the one on the island here?

Edited by ZenFool, 19 November 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

ZenFool, on 19 November 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

does not negate the fact that groups have a field day with pugs. I can't believe anyone is arguing the fact that groups win nearly every game versus pugs.
I guess I'm the one on the island here?

You would be right to say that groups are winning against pugs. It still depends on which group and it depends on who the pugs are.

Making hard rules to describe that just arnt realistic.

[TheSilken]

Get the pugs to attack more often instead of defending. That's where the enemy pugs are so why choose defense unless you like facing groups? They screw themselves over and expect miracles.

[PFC Carsten]

ZenFool, on 19 November 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

I guess I'm the one on the island here?

You aren't. Unfortunately, people rather leave quietly than to engange in a forum war against the unit's organised white knights who seem to shout everyone down that wants to rob them of their beloved seal clubbing at the core using the same phrases over and over again (join a unit, get gud or get rekt and maybe like some cheese to the whine).

Everyone who opposes might prove me wrong with the overwhelmingly full queues in CW on every planet there is. Reality-check: Outside of PGI bribes, i.e. events, it's a barren wasteland.

[Frankenst3in]

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

You would be right to say that groups are winning against pugs. It still depends on which group and it depends on who the pugs are.

Making hard rules to describe that just arnt realistic.

I completely agree with Kin3ticX, a large group does increase your chances of winning, but it's not a guarantee. Many of the large groups you see are little more than a bunch of folks getting drunk together. I know a wall of similar tags can be off putting, but if you give up at the start, guess what, you will probably lose. Change your mindset a little. Think to yourself "I got this". If you have one or two dudes with you, be confident in the way you speak to each other. Don't die easy, make them work to kill you. Be putting down constant, effective damage. Learn to poke, because most pugs won't deathball push well, so you'll have to do your work sans backup a lot of the time. Get in the right mechs, especially as IS. A big group can get away with fun builds, but as you go smaller in group size, the more full on meta become important. Battlemasters, banshees, stalkers, thunderbolts, quickdraw 5k, wolverines, bj-1x, firestarters. Or whatever else (no lrms) you do really, really well in that can put down at least midrange, direct fire. Now doing all of this, and more, is in no way a guarantee that you will beat said big group, but you will win often enough that it is not so discouraging, and even in a loss, you will probably pull enough weight that it's not a big deal that you lost.
http://imgur.com/a/8F0SW

Edited by Kiboelt, 20 November 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[Rahul Roy]

ZenFool, on 18 November 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Does anyone have a solution that doesn't insult 1/2 the game population?

You said it yourself somewhere in this thread (I think), the solution is events.

You might call it bribing players into populating CW, but honestly it is making CW fun/worthwhile enough to increase population. The last event particular was super fun, I think because rather than winning folks could get all awards just by grinding through matches.

Increasing the population of people playing CW lessens the sting of all the other problems.

I guess there's probably a limit to how many new kinds of events and rewards systems they can invent, so even that won't last forever.

But for now that's the best and only proven way to make CW fun, and the only thing that brings me out of the woodwark to play CW anymore.

[Willard Phule]

Both sides have valid arguments. If you don't have enough people doing something to make it viable, it dies. If you alienate your hard core players in favor of swelling the ranks with inexperienced players, you're going to lose the people that kept you going to this point...and probably will into the future.

Don't have a clue how to solve it, either. All I know is that I can pretty much tell how a match is going to go simply by seeing the people on my team. Mechs designed to pummel it out in a 5 minute battle in the Solo Queue aren't made for team play. If you think they are, start another thread. Neither are the Trial Mechs that are available to be used in CW.

Now...THAT part is a problem easily dealt with, now that we're using a "PSR" type system that we've been told is light-years better than the old Elo/MM system, which we all know didn't work. Here's my only suggestion:

1- Use the PSR system in CW.

2 - Trial Mechs are ONLY available to Tier 5 players in CW. If you have progressed past Tier 5, you must own your own mechs.

3- Segregate Tier 5 from everyone else for matchmaking purposes. Let the new players explore and learn the game on their own, without polluting the gameplay for everyone else. If they get tired and walk, it's no big deal. They've been doing that since the beginning. Keep your fanbase alive and healthy.

That's pretty much it. Let them learn on their own, at their own speed.

[Appogee]

iLLcapitan, on 19 November 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

1. Exaggeration
2. Exaggeration
3. Exaggeration
edit: 3. is an exaggeration too

I've never seen you playing CW in anything other than a group...

---

My experience, playing solo and in groups, on Clan and IS, is that the only way a group of PUGs wins is if their opposition are also a group of PUGs. (Those matches can be quite fun actually.)

However, if one team has a group of 6 or so, and the other doesn't, then teamwork is OP and ggclose steamroll.

I think the answer is to try to significantly narrow the planets being attacked, to address the low player count, and then try to balance by putting roughly equal sized groups against each other.

I too think that trial Mechs should not be allowed, nor players of PSR 4 or less. Or at the very least, give each team equal numbers of them. (In my last match, I had 4 guys in trial Mechs, who lost three of their Mechs before the rest of us were even on our second drop. No player should have to wait for a 30 minute match only to have it ruined by needing to carry that level of derp.)

Edited by Appogee, 21 November 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Wild_Alaskan]

Kiboelt, on 20 November 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

http://imgur.com/a/8F0SW

Bad example. 2 KCom vs. 11 CWI... my money's on KCom every time.

[Appogee]

wfischer, on 21 November 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Bad example. 2 KCom vs. 11 CWI... my money's on KCom every time.

There will always be outliers and anomalies. But I think the OP's observations hold true in most cases.

[Ssamout]

Naw.. Generalizations are nice and all but One lance of skill is able to counter a group of average skill. The gap between those scoring 1k in a good match compared to those scoring 3k in a good match is quite huge.

[Clownwarlord]

iLLcapitan, on 19 November 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

1. Exaggeration
2. Exaggeration
3. Exaggeration

edit: 3. is an exaggeration too

Probably never played solo or as IS.