65 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

heimdelight, on 26 November 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I think the hitbox changes are a step in the right direction.

Judging by this picture,

https://i.imgur.com/3RaPbbW.png

I usually would CT or leg Jenners before the change. After the change, I will probably aim for legs or STs, which is an upgrade for them since it's a bit harder to hit the ST. I still think the area around the cockpit window should be CT, and the ST changes behind it stay. but that's my only criticism.

I think the FS9-S has better hitboxes, raven 2x/4x has better quirks, so the Jenner naturally falls behind.

The problem is now its a walking ST with only 27 to 30 points of armor. Any alpha cores it if not takes it out. The CT is completely encapsulated now. The design of the CT and ST's makes it nigh impossible to spread damage, especially at certain angles. Just no way to do it.

The reason the holy trinigy of lights works so well, is they can easily spread the damage, Jenners Simply can not. Even with the next change on the 1st, I do not think its going to help. I mean hell, how many Jenners have been spotted since the hit box change?

Would love for PGI to post the numbers and their contributions to matches.

[Jon Gotham]

El Bandito, on 26 November 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

CW population will actually increase if Clans are taken down to IS level. Most people prefer fair fights.

Fair as in load up on PPFLD and roflstomp.........I'm sure plenty will enjoy that. Might swing the other way.....
I once watched Proton (I think it was) in a drop in cw I was in. His build was a ppfld build, he faced off vs 3(I think?) clan mechs and killed them all. He simply rolled the damage away but they couldn't roll his away, as he was pumping pp alphas into them. Unless they used gauss builds they couldn't do what he could....he could put more efficient damage , more often than they could.
I think the time of the IS is night in CW, if you knew what you were doing before-you'll clean house now....we have the quirks, better heat, more ppfld...seemingly more survivable mechs now....fun times ahead?

[Ascaloth]

heimdelight, on 26 November 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

Hello, all!

Church of Skill has recorded it's first Meta Review and Playtest video, featuring the opinions of veteran players on the PTS4 and what we may see on MWO live servers Dec 1st.


https://youtu.be/yk1YTUzmdSk


View the Full Video Here

Table of Contents:
05:22 - CATAPULT vs TIMBERWOLF SRM Missile Test
13:58 - CENTURION CN-9AL vs BLACKJACK BJ-1X Medium Test
19:02 - TIMBERWOLF vs BLACKKNIGHT Heavy Test
23:01 - DIREWOLF vs ATLAS Assault Test

Church of Skill: Meta Review of PTS4 feat. heimdelight, prtNspz/Proton & slummy - Meta Review is a Playtest/Review Session with Top-Tier Players

Proton and Heimdelight 1v1 in a few standout mechs on the latest PTS4 and go over a few of the changes that were found.

Don't forget to check out www.churchofskill.com and stop by our TeamSpeak (ts32.gameservers.com:9207) on Sundays for Church of Skill Mass at 7PM Eastern!

PTS4 Review

-Skill Tree efficiencies nerfed to 7.5%

-Clan Heatsink Adjustments
1. Heatsink Heat Capacity (Heat Cap) reduced from 1.4 to 1.1
2. Cooling rate increased to -1.5 from -1.4
3. Hurts Clan Lights that rely on laser boating?
-IS Heatsink Adjustments
1. Double Heatsink Heat Capacity (Heat Cap) increased
2.IS Single Heatsinks Cooling rate increased

-Clan 'Mech XL ST Loss, 20% reduction in all engine related aspects of 'Mech

-IS/Clan Gauss recycle rate increased from 4s to 5.5s
1. Gauss may now be useless even with New IS Quirks?

05:22 - CATAPULT vs TIMBERWOLF SRM Missile Test

-Global Missile Buff
1. All missle spread reduced
2. All missle speeds increased
3. Ghost Heat Threshold increased from 3 to 4 on SRM6s, 6 for SRM2s
4. Clan Streaks Now More OP?
5. Can Missiles be Viable with these Clan Laser Nerfs? (Then talk about Clan Nerfs)

-Global Clan Laser Max Range Reductions
1. Due to Heat Capacity Loss on Clan 'Mechs, remove cooldown modules and replace with range modules for a similar range.
2. Hurts Clan Lights that boat lasers?
---------------------
New IS Quirks

-More Armor (Structure) added to IS 'Mechs
-Top Tier Firepower Buffs are Cooldown and Less Heat Gen

IS Lights
-Locust: Too Much Glass with Structure Quirks? Not enough Cannon?
-Ravens: 2x/4x Pretty Decent
-FS9-S: Remains Skirmish King?
-Jenners: Worse than all of the above?

13:58 - CENTURION CN-9AL vs BLACKJACK BJ-1X Medium Test

IS Mediums
-BJs got buffed
-CN9-AL got buffed
-VNDs get buffed

19:02 - TIMBERWOLF vs BLACKKNIGHT Heavy Test

IS Heavys
-BL-7-KNT OP?
-Catapults get structure+firepower quirks
-QKDs get slight buffs, 5k gets slight nerf and 4g is the new Laser King
-TDRs nerfed

23:01 - DIREWOLF vs ATLAS Assault Test

IS Assaults
-AS7 Structure and Firepower Buffs
1. AS7-S AC20/Missle Combo is fun?
2. Boar's Head -25% crit chance
-HGN732b gets slight buff
-All Stalkers get nerfed

-Clan Quirks
1. Remain Largely Untouched
2. Things like ACH Leg Structure Quirk Removal that nerfs some Clan 'Mechs

With this new system, Clan 'Mechs are being brought closer to parity with IS 'Mechs. However, some Clan 'Mechs will become nerfed despite their already subpar performance due to global heatsink

and laser changes. Does this further achieve the goal of equivalency between both types of 'Mechs while still retaining the unique qualities of each type?

And I was just yesterday searching for this kind of content at your website!

Thank you very much! I'll watch the recordings as soon as I get home tonight.

[Revis Volek]

kamiko kross, on 26 November 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Fair as in load up on PPFLD and roflstomp.........I'm sure plenty will enjoy that. Might swing the other way.....
I once watched Proton (I think it was) in a drop in cw I was in. His build was a ppfld build, he faced off vs 3(I think?) clan mechs and killed them all. He simply rolled the damage away but they couldn't roll his away, as he was pumping pp alphas into them. Unless they used gauss builds they couldn't do what he could....he could put more efficient damage , more often than they could.
I think the time of the IS is night in CW, if you knew what you were doing before-you'll clean house now....we have the quirks, better heat, more ppfld...seemingly more survivable mechs now....fun times ahead?

Looks like i might have to find a IS CW group come Phase 3....

[Mystere]

kamiko kross, on 26 November 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I think the time of the IS is night in CW, if you knew what you were doing before-you'll clean house now....we have the quirks, better heat, more ppfld...seemingly more survivable mechs now....fun times ahead?

Enjoy your ghost drops.

[Jon Gotham]

Mystere, on 26 November 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Enjoy your ghost drops.

I was being sarcastic.
I think the nerfs are shameful. You don't balance via nerfs.

[Aresye]

If somebody wants me to run range for comp, I prefer to run the TDR-5SS.
If somebody wants me to run laser meta in a medium, I prefer to run the BJ-1X or WVR-6K.

I honestly think balance is going to shift wildly in the other direction, and this is why:
- Clan laser builds already run hot. The nerf to heat cap is going to make these builds stupidly hot.
- The Clan XL nerf of 20% is going to end up being too high. Losing a side torso will not be as severe as being legged, but it isn't far behind in that losing a side torso will pretty much be the end of a Clan mech's usefulness.
- The vast majority of super quirked IS meta mechs run standard engines. The ones that do run XL (like the BJ-1X) are fast enough and/or (now) have more than enough extra structure to minimize the risks of running XL.
- IS mechs still have better hardpoint locations and can ridge poke better.

But the main reason I think it will shift, is that up until now, the Clans really only held the advantage in mid-range DPS. The IS already had the range advantage, but they also had the close-in brawling advantage. If EmP's opinion holds true that the IS now has a very big edge in mid-range DPS, then the only Clan advantage that's really left in the end is the advantage in Streak SRMs, which I expect you'll start seeing a whole lot more of once the balance pass goes live.

Take in mind my opinions are based off having run and played both Clan and IS mechs competitively. I think Clan mechs hold the edge now, but I think their advantages compared to the currently quirked IS mechs are drastically overstated. Heck, the last time any kind of official, long term study on W/L rates was the Battle of Tukayyid, in which Clans won a little over 50% of matches (think it was 52% or 53% IIRC), and that was WITH the majority of competitive teams playing as Clan during the event.

Note, I am NOT complaining because I am a die-hard Clan devotee. I am complaining because the nature of super fast laser durations along with pinpoint convergence is absolutely horse*&$*, and I had HOPED that this full balance pass would have brought IS and Clan closer together while decreasing the power creep and increasing the length of TTK.

The only thing this "requirkening" is going to accomplish, is increase the power creep, and further decrease TTK.

[stjobe]

Darian DelFord, on 26 November 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Well at least they acknowledged that Jenenrs are the worst of the IS lights now.

Commando said:

Yay! I'm not the worst any more! Er... You just forgot about me as you always do, didn't you? Yeah, you did. Figures... Ah well, I'll just go back to my corner then. One day... One day I'll shine too, you'll see!

[Mcgral18]

Aresye Kerensky, on 26 November 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

If somebody wants me to run range for comp, I prefer to run the TDR-5SS.
If somebody wants me to run laser meta in a medium, I prefer to run the BJ-1X or WVR-6K.

I honestly think balance is going to shift wildly in the other direction, and this is why:
- Clan laser builds already run hot. The nerf to heat cap is going to make these builds stupidly hot.

That particular change is so minor, it doesn't really do anything. It changes PoorDubs (exclusively) from +1.4 heat to +1.1 heat.

Not the base 50 heat cap, and if we still gain 20% heat containment, the base 60 cap.

Your 25DHS TimberGod LOLpha goes from
50+(1.4*15)=71*1.2=85.2 heat cap
down to
50+(1.1*15)=66.5*1.2=79.8 heat cap.

Less than an ERMLs worth of heat.

Dissipation goes from
2+(.14*15)=4.1*1.15=4.715 H/s
down to
2+(.15*1.15)=4.25*1.15=4.8875 H/s

Or, a 6.6% heat cap nerf and a 3.5% dissipation buff.
No big change.


XL nerf has a greater impact, but the God tier won't be affected very much, and compared to dying, it's a pretty good deal.

[Mystere]

Great! Quirks, quirks, and more quirks.

And what happens when Information Warfare finally comes (the stated reason quirks are staying in the mean time)? Are quirks eventually going to be removed, changed, or stay? If not the latter, then what is this, another round of wasted time and effort?

[MischiefSC]

So if you just wiped out all quirks, what would game balance look like?

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

So if you just wiped out all quirks, what would game balance look like?

Who said anything about wiping out quirks?

If PGI's plan is to eventually remove them, then they should not spend any effort touching them.

Edited by Mystere, 26 November 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Mystere, on 26 November 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

Who said anything about wiping out quirks?\

If PGI's plan is to eventually removed them, then they should not spend any effort touching them.

If they want Role Warfare and more balance, the best way to do quirks is leave it to the players. Let the players spec their mechs the way they wish with a new XP Skill tree, per mech per chassis. Have a default paths say 3 to 4 of them have general quirks to them

As you go down a path you specialize your mech your way at the exclusion of other paths. If you wish to re-spec then spend some MC to do so.

There ya go, Players get what they want and PGI gets what they want.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Advocating asymmetrical balance with IS having armor and Clans having firepower only works in a 1v1 scenario. In the 12v12 battlefield we play in, focused firepower counts for so much more. For "top" tier players I would have expected you to understand this simple facet of balance.

TTK is already fine. Your duels lasted 45ish seconds. You think that's low, go play CS and see what low TTK really is. The problem is that we have deathball on deathball engagements due to the way maps are made and what mission objectives are. If we split up combat into lance on lance engagements, you would never hear people complain about low TTK.

[El Bandito]

kamiko kross, on 26 November 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Fair as in load up on PPFLD and roflstomp.........I'm sure plenty will enjoy that. Might swing the other way.....
I once watched Proton (I think it was) in a drop in cw I was in. His build was a ppfld build, he faced off vs 3(I think?) clan mechs and killed them all. He simply rolled the damage away but they couldn't roll his away, as he was pumping pp alphas into them. Unless they used gauss builds they couldn't do what he could....he could put more efficient damage , more often than they could.
I think the time of the IS is night in CW, if you knew what you were doing before-you'll clean house now....we have the quirks, better heat, more ppfld...seemingly more survivable mechs now....fun times ahead?

Proton is Proton. No everyone can be like him.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 26 November 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

Who said anything about wiping out quirks?\

If PGI's plan is to eventually removed them, then they should not spend any effort touching them.

In context of game balance, no quirks is reality. Quirks do nothing but invalidate all less-quirked chassis and variants. Quirks are the bad idea we all came to recognize was a terrible idea, until we realized that actually balancing the game would involve changing the mechanics and the gameplay a bit and change is vomit-in-public sort of abject terrifying to some people and Could Not Be. At which point suddenly quirks are great, a great idea and work perfectly (because they work just like the game you already play, which is to say are broken as holy ****).

I'm asking of the changes (like slowing Clan mechs down, heat, etc) are actually very relevant to balance if it was stripped of quirks. That without quirks, what would the game play like.

[Davegt27]

I wonder if it will be worth buying 3 Mechs to master with the up coming changes

I sort of wish you guys did not cry so much the game could end up on the scrap heap
With people saying remember the old MWO sure was fun to bad it died

[adamts01]

Darian DelFord, on 26 November 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

If they want Role Warfare and more balance, the best way to do quirks is leave it to the players.

If you're talking info quirks, then yes. Let people have a long sensor range mad dog so he doesn't have to ask for locks every match.

But firepower quirks? ... Hell no. There's a good reason the dragon got an AC quirk and the dire didn't.

Some quirks are awesome. They brought completely dead, and never played chassis back to the game.

This clan heat sink change sounds incredible. It makes my stupid OP timber much too hot and with base heat the same it doesn't really hurt my MLX because I didn't have tonnage to equip extra heat sinks anyway. Now missiles will have a role and low heat ballistics like LBX will be attractive. I'm really looking forward to this. I just hope ECM get a decent hit against it.

[InspectorG]

Ghogiel, on 26 November 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

RIP SMN

Not that it was all that alive in the 1st place.

Maybe its abundant 'mobility' will be a thing????

[adamts01]

It was mainly doa because of a lack of energy points. With ballistics and missiles having a bigger role it'll probably be better.