47 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior5152251]

Biggest advantage of lights is that people will almost always shoot heavies, assaults and mediums before lights. Simply because lights seem to be harder to kill and they have lower dps most of the time. So if it takes the same amount of time to kill the DIrewhale you shoot that one first.. Even the 6 SMPL ACH will overheat before it can kill most heavies.

[Coolant]

no offense to the OP, but we dont need any more arctic cheetah pilots. the mech has messed up hit boxes and already too many use the mech as a crutch. legs are getting the structure quirk removed but that isnt enough

Edited by Coolant, 28 November 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Coolant is spot on. The ACH is still borked and doesn't take damage properly. Other light pilots consider it a crutch mech and many refuse to even play it. Mainly because it teaches bad habits that follow them into other light mechs and have to be unlearned. So I would advise not playing it, sorry.

But if you really have to, Winter's advice is very good:
"the ACH is capable of delivering a lot of pinpoint damage in a short amount of time, so a lot of people are tempted to slow down in close proximity to their target. They eat a lot of damage for the sake of getting their first kill, and then they're an easy target for the next guy who comes along.

My tip would be to focus more on surviving and less on doing damage. Don't get bogged down in duels unless you're clearly the superior player. Don't take one to give one. Just disengage and find a new target. Most of the bad ACH pilots I see make the mistake of trying too hard."

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 28 November 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[FupDup]

If the ACH was really the no-skill crutch that people say it is, the creator of this thread wouldn't have any issues whatsoever making the mech obliterate everything in a 10-mile radius around itself. The fact that people can do badly with it proves that its reputation is severely overrated and that most of the allegations against it are false.

It's great as far as the light class itself is concerned, but it all goes downhill when mediums, heavies, and assaults get added to the comparison.

[adamts01]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

If the ACH was really the no-skill crutch that people say it is, the creator of this thread wouldn't have any issues whatsoever making the mech obliterate everything in a 10-mile radius around itself.

It's easily arguable that it's the best light in the game. That doesn't mean it's an instant win mech. Same as it's always been.

[FupDup]

adamts01, on 28 November 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

It's easily arguable that it's the best light in the game. That doesn't mean it's an instant win mech. Same as it's always been.

The best mech of the worst weight class, in other words.

Most people go further than that to argue that it's a no-skill crutch that anybody and everybody racks up huge damage and kill scores every match. We've already seen some of it in this thread, in fact.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Its basically a Firestater with ecm, very high weapons mounts and that can survive losing a torso....

[Sarlic]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

The best mech of the worst weight class, in other words.

Most people go further than that to argue that it's a no-skill crutch that anybody and everybody racks up huge damage and kill scores every match. We've already seen some of it in this thread, in fact.

The Artic Cheetah has a lower threshold then for example a Jenner.

It's 'easier' to pilot the Artic Cheetah then a Jenner. But piloting any lights (class wise) is harder then any other class. The difference is between the mech choices.

The Artic Cheetah has everything like you said in the worst mech class.
No wonder the thing is better then a Firestarter when you still have to chew through legs which has the armor of a medium.

In my opinion the Artic Cheetah is a prime example when people put false arguments of that 'this light mech is not OP.''

The scale ratio, the hitbox ratio and all other things (continous hit-reg problems on the servers) is what makes this light ''OP''. The hitboxes on the move might be out of sync, or not -doesnt matter anyway- the point is that it has evertyhing what practically none of the others lights have in terms of firewpower and all kind of other advantages instead of a walking centre torso called the Jenner.

The scaling of for example the Crab (as i have to call a other example) is rediculous. It's not even remotely funny how scaling is becoming the second major thing of choosing the obvious mech to pick while other mechs are getting shafted down the road. (SUPEREME TINY HITBOXES, SCALE, FIREPOWER, SPEED, ECM =OWNS EVERYTHING.)

Personally i find the Artic Cheetah does not belong in Mechwarrior Online for several reasons. Just as the Black Knight. The whole IS/Clan atmosphere is borked.

If any other light was brought up at the same level of the ACH...then you wouldnt hear me. But this whole game screams "WRONG BALANCE" in the first place.

But some pilots just suck at being a light. And yes, i'm one of them.

Edited by Sarlic, 28 November 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Deathlike]

To "properly Arctic Cheetah", you need to know how to play Lights (and I don't mean slow Lights like the Kitfox or Adder).

While the class itself is pretty twitch-based, but battlefield awareness is of the utmost importance (kinda like a slow Assault, but you actually have speed to get in and out of bad situations in most circumstances). Being that guy to backrage an Assault but not realizing there's something behind you is the ultimate beginning of "trial by fire" - you have to know when and the instance to make such a decision w/o being immediately wrecked by something you cannot see (Seismic is great for this).

But hey, it's OP right? That's why the queues for Lights are sub-15% on a consistent basis... oh wait...

[Sarlic]

Deathlike, on 28 November 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

To "properly Arctic Cheetah", you need to know how to play Lights (and I don't mean slow Lights like the Kitfox or Adder).

While the class itself is pretty twitch-based, but battlefield awareness is of the utmost importance (kinda like a slow Assault, but you actually have speed to get in and out of bad situations in most circumstances). Being that guy to backrage an Assault but not realizing there's something behind you is the ultimate beginning of "trial by fire" - you have to know when and the instance to make such a decision w/o being immediately wrecked by something you cannot see (Seismic is great for this).

But hey, it's OP right? That's why the queues for Lights are sub-15% on a consistent basis... oh wait...

I really think the main problem was bringing the ACH to the table and instant obsolete half of some lights in the same tonnage.

In my opinion it was a incredible stupid move from PGI's side. (Aside from its rediculous initial quirks on launch)
Why play any other lights while the ACH...can do it all with less effort?

If proper scaling and a fresh look on the other lights would have been applied then we would probaly seem more variety.

[FupDup]

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

The Artic Cheetah has a lower threshold then for example a Jenner.

It's 'easier' to pilot the Artic Cheetah then a Jenner. But piloting any lights (class wise) is harder then any other class. The difference is between the mech choices.

Saying that a Cheeto is easier than a Jenner is like saying that a Zeus is easier than an Atlas or that a Shadow Hawk is easier than a Kintaro.

Bad mechs have always been harder to get good results with than effective mechs, this isn't exactly a new or exciting development.

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

The Artic Cheetah has everything like you said in the worst mech class.
No wonder the thing is better then a Firestarter when you still have to chew through legs which has the armor of a medium.

Actually I would credit most of its successes to Clan tech in general, particularly XL and lasers. The high side-torso mounts and ECM add a few cherries on top.

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

In my opinion the Artic Cheetah is a prime example when people put false arguments of that 'this light mech is not OP.''

The scale ratio, the hitbox ratio and all other things (continous hit-reg problems on the servers) is what makes this light ''OP''. The hitboxes on the move might be out of sync, or not -doesnt matter anyway- the point is that it has evertyhing what practically none of the others lights have in terms of firewpower and all kind of other advantages instead of a walking centre torso called the Jenner.

How is the mech scaled badly? It's pretty significantly bigger than the Spider (which is the same tonnage), and only a bit smaller than the slightly heavier 35 ton lights.

The "hitbox issues" have been tested by McGral, the mech's body parts appear to take damage when the visual model is hit. If your "issues" occur only during movement, this means that those issues are caused by something like HSR instead of the mech's hitboxes. And if it's HSR then it's not even a problem with this specific mech, that's a global game problem.


Firepower-wise it's actually not that far ahead of the pack, the mech is simply well-designed (good engine, hardpoints, Endo, FF, JJs, etc.) in that it doesn't have any innate weaknesses (e.g. garbage hitboxes, bad hardpoints, weighing less than 35 tons, etc.) that cripple it like most lights happen to have.

It's the Shadow Hawk of the light class, in other words. Ironically, I remember most of the forums being HAPPY with the arrival of the Shawk, because it was the first medium in MWO that wasn't totally inferior to other weight classes (pre-Shawk mediums were basically crap for the most part). Asking for the same thing from the light class is asking for too much, apparently.

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

The scaling of for example the Crab (as i have to call a other example) is rediculous. It's not even remotely funny how scaling is becoming the second major thing of choosing the obvious mech to pick while other mechs are getting shafted down the road.

The Crab's scaling relative to other mediums is much more distinctive and outlier than how the Cheeto's scaling/size compares to other lights (the Cheeto isn't even an outlier in that aspect at all, really). Like, a lot more distinctive.

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Personally i find the Artic Cheetah does not belong in Mechwarrior Online for several reasons. Just as the Black Knight. The whole IS/Clan atmosphere is borked.

How did the BK of all mechs get dragged into this? It's scaled pretty big and doesn't have a particularly impressive reputation in terms of effectiveness.

The overall Clan vs IS problems are due primarily to inheritance from the BT IP itself (e.g. Clan tech is direct upgrade to IS tech in TT, just higher BattleValue). The faction balance was what you were referring to, right?

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Karmen Baric, on 28 November 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

I played the trial Arctic Cheetah and after 3 games had 11 kills and more damage than i would get in assault mechs.

Thats one broken mech, but ill play it to annoy everyone else until its nerfed.

With that kind of logic, my Pretty Baby is also extremely broken.

Coolant, on 28 November 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

no offense to the OP, but we dont need any more arctic cheetah pilots. the mech has messed up hit boxes and already too many use the mech as a crutch. legs are getting the structure quirk removed but that isnt enough

I guess some people will just not be happy until it is added to the pile of useless Clan Mechs.

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

If the ACH was really the no-skill crutch that people say it is, the creator of this thread wouldn't have any issues whatsoever making the mech obliterate everything in a 10-mile radius around itself. The fact that people can do badly with it proves that its reputation is severely overrated and that most of the allegations against it are false.

It's great as far as the light class itself is concerned, but it all goes downhill when mediums, heavies, and assaults get added to the comparison.

Well, to many it seems, the only good Clan Mech is a Suckoner-class Clan Mech.

Edited by Mystere, 28 November 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Coolant]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

If the ACH was really the no-skill crutch that people say it is, the creator of this thread wouldn't have any issues whatsoever making the mech obliterate everything in a 10-mile radius around itself. The fact that people can do badly with it proves that its reputation is severely overrated and that most of the allegations against it are false.

It's great as far as the light class itself is concerned, but it all goes downhill when mediums, heavies, and assaults get added to the comparison.

Because one player, maybe depending on their playstyle is (long or short range, missler etc.), doesn't get high damage doesn't mean diddly squat as far as it not taking damage. Damage done or # of kills doesn't necessarily make a case that it is OP, because that isn't what people complain about. The issue is not taking damage. It could have zero weapons and still tank like an assault. It could have nothing but a Tag laser and be the last mech standing alive. I've alpha'd into a shutdown Artic Cheetah several times, even once from behind, at least once alpha'd twice in the same spot. And, I'm not the only one. I have watched another do the same. I'm sorry but there are just toooo many complaints about the same issue - taking damage. No one complains about it's firepower, because that's not the issue.

Edited by Coolant, 28 November 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Sarlic]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

Saying that a Cheeto is easier than a Jenner is like saying that a Zeus is easier than an Atlas or that a Shadow Hawk is easier than a Kintaro.

Sorry but that's no argument.

We're talking about the same class where the 'powercreep' difference is huge.

Spoiler

Not relevant: A little bit off: Then why keep adding mech making MWO Imbalanced?
Obviously the Community wanted it. They screamed for Artic Cheetahs and other mechs allong.

PGI have to make cash somehow, but their business model is terrible, you know it. Wont derail on that one, but that's how i think about it.

Quote

Bad mechs have always been harder to get good results with than effective mechs, this isn't exactly a new or exciting development.

We got no balance in-game. Yet they keep adding either terrible broken mechs or terrible OP mechs.

Quote

Actually I would credit most of its successes to Clan tech in general, particularly XL and lasers. The high side-torso mounts and ECM add a few cherries on top.

I somewhat agree. If i compare it to other lights the Artic Cheetah tops every other lights. Just like you said. But the FS is still a fair reasonable foe aswell.

Quote

How is the mech scaled badly? It's pretty significantly bigger than the Spider (which is the same tonnage), and only a bit smaller than the slightly heavier 35 ton lights.

If i look at the current chart (Reddit) and my own opinion it's not bad scaled, but rediculous.

I wish they would shrink my Atlas or Orion torso's to that ratio and then i can dance around bullets and fire with some delicious HSR/server problems

Quote

The "hitbox issues" have been tested by McGral, the mech's body parts appear to take damage when the visual model is hit. If your "issues" occur only during movement, this means that those issues are caused by something like HSR instead of the mech's hitboxes. And if it's HSR then it's not even a problem with this specific mech, that's a global game problem.

Like i said. Out of sync, HSR or whatever. Something is not right.

Look at the animation alone. It's pretty iffy. But that's my opinion. The Hound has it as well.

I don't give much about Mcgrals video, sorry. Two people on a single server doenst say anything then on the full live servers. I have provided in the past enough evidence (on video, breakdown and gifs) how terrible broken the ACH was. Documented and all. (Sure it was the first past with the quirks, but it didnt changed much). As far you are saying i agree; HSR or server problems and frankly i hate it.

Quote

The overall Clan vs IS problems are due primarily to inheritance from the BT IP itself (e.g. Clan tech is direct upgrade to IS tech in TT, just higher BattleValue). The faction balance was what you were referring to, right?

Yeah, sorry Faction balance. My bad. I agree.

The only thing i could wish for is that all other lights needs to be brought at the same or very reasonable level. I know i ask perhaps too much, but the whole difference is just annoying.


I get your point and on certain points i gree though, i'll just end it here. Thanks for the discussion!

Edited by Sarlic, 28 November 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[FupDup]

Coolant, on 28 November 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Because one player, maybe depending on how his playstyle is (long or short range, missler etc.), doesn't get high damage doesn't mean diddly squat as far as it not taking damage. Damage done or # of kills doesn't necessarily make a case that it is OP, because that isn't what people complain about. The issue is not taking damage. It could have zero weapons and still tank like an assault. It could have nothing but a Tag laser and be the last mech standing alive. I'm sorry but there are just toooo many complaints about the same issue - taking damage. No one complains about it's firepower, because that's not the issue.

The "last mech alive" argument is a pretty weak one because I have managed to be the last surviving mech on my team with every mech I have ever owned, for at least one match (usually more). I've been the last man alive with everything from Dire Wolves to Kit Foxes, and from Novas to Catapults.

It's actually pretty easy to do, you just stick towards the back of your team formation and poke with mid to long range weapons. Let your teammates be your meatshields for the most part and you'll be the last man standing pretty often.


For firepower, there actually are a number of complaints about that aspect, even in this thread (the dreaded 6 SPL build).

[Novakaine]

Don't, have some dignity mechbro.

[FupDup]

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Sorry but that's no argument.

We're talking about the same class where the 'powercreep' difference is huge.

The creeping has been going on for quite a long time. I'm not saying it's a good trend, I'm saying that it's an old one that shouldn't be treated like a suddenly new phenomenon.

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Not relevant: A little bit off: Then why keep adding mech making MWO Imbalanced?
Obviously the Community wanted it. They screamed for Artic Cheetahs and other mechs allong.

PGI have to make cash somehow, but their business model is terrible, you know it. Wont derail on that one, but that's how i think about it.

We got no balance in-game. Yet they keep adding either terrible broken mechs or terrible OP mechs.

I honestly think that PGI doesn't know how to intentionally make mechs weak or strong, I think it mostly happens by random chance and/or by inheriting their traits from BT. PGI don't seem to understand the game's mechanics and what separates the viable from the mediocre enough to be the sole determiners of mech usefulness.

In the case of the ACH, it has several good base chassis elements (Endo, FF, good engine, etc.) and the ability to sidestep its BT/TT weaknesses (lower than max stock armor and sometimes unimpressive stock weapon choices). Thus, an effective mech in MWO.

Unrelated: This is actually how the Hellbringer became good in MWO as well (garbage stock armor make it poop in BT, but MWO lets you fix that so it becomes great here). The Shad is in a similar boat (no particular strengths in BT but no particular weaknesses either, thus it gives a good blank canvas for building almost any role you want).

Sarlic, on 28 November 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Like i said. Out of sync, HSR or whatever. Something is not right.

Look at the animation alone. It's pretty iffy. But that's my opinion. The Hound has it as well.

I don't give much about Mcgrals video, sorry. Two people on a single server doenst say anything then on the full live servers. I have provided in the past enough evidence (on video, breakdown and gifs) how terrible broken the ACH was. Documented and all. (Sure it was the first past with the quirks, but it didnt changed much). As far you are saying i agree; HSR or server problems and frankly i hate it.

If the increased number of players on the live server causes the issues, then that's not a hitbox problem either.

For "evidence" on ACH "issues," there are often issues of things like only partial beam durations hitting (instead of full beam on one body part) or passing through the gap between the mech's elbow and belly. Things aren't always as they seem while playing it in real-time...

Assuming the issues are in fact HSR/servers/whatever, that means the argument should be framed as improving those general game features instead of going after one particular mech.

[Tarogato]

I've found that the best loadout for solo queue (at least for me) is 6 ER mediums. Not for the faint of heart, since a single alpha brings you to over 60% heat and you really need good trigger discipline and a steady aim, but you can settle for 5 meds instead. I recommend trying it out if you're having a hard time with the ACH. The small pulse builds require patience and balls of steel (same with the ER small build) to get in range and you really need to know the lay of the land and the capabilities of your enemies before diving in. The medium pulse build can work well but it just doesn't feel as strong to me. Doing ERLL is super niche and you don't wind up utilising the range in pug matches - it's a bit of a waste. Doing ER mediums, though, you can stay inside your optimum range all match and just keep pouring on the damage at your maximum rate of fire. Since you have ECM you can flank and get back shots better than non ECM lights (and with a 42-point alpha you can actually one-shot a lot of mechs with a steady aim), and since you have the speed and JJs you can get out of sticky situations pretty reliably.

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 28 November 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I've found that the best loadout for solo queue (at least for me) is 6 ER mediums. Not for the faint of heart, since a single alpha brings you to over 60% heat and you really need good trigger discipline and a steady aim, but you can settle for 5 meds instead. I recommend trying it out if you're having a hard time with the ACH. The small pulse builds require patience and balls of steel (same with the ER small build) to get in range and you really need to know the lay of the land and the capabilities of your enemies before diving in. The medium pulse build can work well but it just doesn't feel as strong to me. Doing ERLL is super niche and you don't wind up utilising the range in pug matches - it's a bit of a waste. Doing ER mediums, though, you can stay inside your optimum range all match and just keep pouring on the damage at your maximum rate of fire. Since you have ECM you can flank and get back shots better than non ECM lights (and with a 42-point alpha you can actually one-shot a lot of mechs with a steady aim), and since you have the speed and JJs you can get out of sticky situations pretty reliably.

I would probably rather do 4 ERML for the sake of sustainability, similar to why the 4 PPC Stalker was better than the 6 PPC version.

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

I would probably rather do 4 ERML for the sake of sustainability, similar to why the 4 PPC Stalker was better than the 6 PPC version.

But the Stalker was slow and couldn't pull back to cover and reposition while it cooled down - it was an assault and couldn't easily dictate the terms of its engagement. If you only do 4 ERML you're not going to get much out of it. You might as well pilot a MLX. The argument that it isn't sustainable is unfounded on your part (unless you've actually tried it yourself =P), but I'm very happy with the sustainability.

<warning, e-peening follows>

Spoiler

My ACH-Prime is exclusively my 6 medium build, it has my highest average damage of all my lights (and highest everything else, too). It's just a beast. My ACH-C is my 6 small pulse build. Almost all of this is solo queue matches, I almost never play group queue.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 November 2015 - 12:49 PM.