54 replies to this topic

[Light-Speed]

Jenner hitboxes are (probably) going back to something of a normal zone.

The new quirks for Oxide is welcome but unnecessary.
However, PGI may be trying to hit two birds with one stone, in that Oxides will still be able to be sold in the face of the Jenner IIC (both to compete with Clan XL and to survive those incoming streaks) and to balance the lack of JJs (for running, spreading damage, and changing directions quickly out of enemy bullet trajectories) in Oxides.

Edited by Nightingale27, 29 November 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightingale27, on 29 November 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

Jenner hitboxes are (probably) going back to something of a normal zone.

The new quirks for Oxide is welcome but unnecessary.
However, PGI may be trying to hit two birds with one stone, in that Oxides will still be able to be sold in the face of the Jenner IIC (both to compete with Clan XL and to survive those incoming streaks) and to balance the lack of JJs (for running, spreading damage, and changing directions quickly out of enemy bullet trajectories) in Oxides.

I do not see how they can redo the hit boxes on the Jenner. Lets just face it, this is a unique mech. it really can not spread damage easily. Hell you hit it from the back and it damages the front center torso, a bug that has been in since beta.

PGI thinks that re-doing the hit box's is the fix to every mechs problems. Sure on humanoid mechs it might be, but not on mechs like the Jenner. When they re-did them the last time and elongated the Jenners ST's the first time the Jenners performance took a nose dive and has not recovered since.

Exposing the Jenner's side torso the way they did removed between 1.5 and 2 tons of space for the Jenner, effective putting a hurt on the mech and IMHO was a major nerf to the chassis which was NOT needed. Put the hit boxes back to factory settings and then just buff the CT with armor and structure. Boom done

The buffs that are on the Oxide I feel need to go to every Jenner. The IIc will still have the advantage, of losing a ST and still fumction, the other Jenners will not.

But yet again, I DO NOT see why just about eveyr other mech got a structure or armor buff, and the Jenenrs were yet again left out in the cold.

I am sorry but the PTS 4 quirks on the Jenner are just idiotic no matter how you look at them. I mean how many times have you seen any Jenner pilot ***** about the Yaw Angle?

[Bishop Steiner]

Darian DelFord, on 29 November 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

I do not see how they can redo the hit boxes on the Jenner. Lets just face it, this is a unique mech. it really can not spread damage easily. Hell you hit it from the back and it damages the front center torso, a bug that has been in since beta.

PGI thinks that re-doing the hit box's is the fix to every mechs problems. Sure on humanoid mechs it might be, but not on mechs like the Jenner. When they re-did them the last time and elongated the Jenners ST's the first time the Jenners performance took a nose dive and has not recovered since.

Exposing the Jenner's side torso the way they did removed between 1.5 and 2 tons of space for the Jenner, effective putting a hurt on the mech and IMHO was a major nerf to the chassis which was NOT needed. Put the hit boxes back to factory settings and then just buff the CT with armor and structure. Boom done

The buffs that are on the Oxide I feel need to go to every Jenner. The IIc will still have the advantage, of losing a ST and still fumction, the other Jenners will not.

But yet again, I DO NOT see why just about eveyr other mech got a structure or armor buff, and the Jenenrs were yet again left out in the cold.

I am sorry but the PTS 4 quirks on the Jenner are just idiotic no matter how you look at them. I mean how many times have you seen any Jenner pilot ***** about the Yaw Angle?

I agree, it does need the oxide structure quirks, to the torsos. It will still be more fragile than an ACH or FS9, but that is not really a problem. It's borderline now, but the CT is too easy to hit. It's still probably the 3rd best Light though (one or two raven builds might be above it, but certainly not the chassis as a whole)

[Grey Ghost]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

don't see much need for the arms, tbh, they catch little fire. Legs around 12, the rest, yeah, though making it armor would be preferable.

Unless I am mistaken; back when I was heavy into the Jenner I recall losing an arm quite often and / or having one or more lasers get crit. Obviously Armor would be better, but PGI is really macking on structure right now.

[MauttyKoray]

Even though this is already a 3 page post I'll chime in. It basically went like this: Some mechs were really good, some really bad.

The Jenner was great cause its STs almost never got popped, you could shave off some armor, throw an XL in it and rarely go down from a ST loss. It was originally one of the Tier 1 light mechs in the game. Then after quirks came it leveled out a bit more with others, however it was still one of the top. Now we've got the hitbox changes and suddenly a ST can pop as easily as the CT (sometimes easier if people are still running the reduced armor STs) and since the Jenner didn't get quirks before its now showing how much of a difference the new hitboxes alone made.

As for the firestarter, it was easily THE best IS light in the game for a long time. Able to carry a heavy armament, go a fairly high speed, and take a beating, this sucker was the king of lights and the fear of any unguarded assault. Hence, no quirks... I've actually never piloted firestarters or paid them any mind so I'm not quite sure what has happened to them in recent months other than the Arctic Cheetah fills practically the same role with better hitboxes.

[Bishop Steiner]

MauttyKoray, on 29 November 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

As for the firestarter, it was easily THE best IS light in the game for a long time. Able to carry a heavy armament, go a fairly high speed, and take a beating, this sucker was the king of lights and the fear of any unguarded assault. Hence, no quirks... I've actually never piloted firestarters or paid them any mind so I'm not quite sure what has happened to them in recent months other than the Arctic Cheetah fills practically the same role with better hitboxes.

and a Clan XL, and clan lasers, etc.

Actually not certain the hitboxes are actually better. Think it's mostly the clan xl.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 28 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

The Jenner was once the king of the light class, and PGI seems to hesitate when it comes to improving mechs that were once "the meta," even if that meta took place several years ago.

The Shadow Hawk, Cataphract, Catapult, Victor, and Highlander are in a similar situation.

I can see that conversation.

"Hey, I think I remember getting killed by a Hoglander. That's the pink one, right? It had a gun and ppcs or something. He jumped up and shot me and I died. Someone said it was broken I think. Nerf that one."

".... that was 2 years ago. Also it's a Highlander, not a Hoglander. The one you're talking about is the Hero mech version. We've nerfed the **** out of it because every time we talk balance you bring that up and it gets nerfed again."

"Yeah. Highlander. God damn poptarts. Nerf it. Also do something about ppcs. Someone tweeted about them something. We should nerf them. Didn't we reduce heat on those? Make them hotter. That's the blue laser toilet flush things, right?"

"We did that like 2 years ago. The tweets you saw were people begging you not to nerf the Highlander again and that we should revisit ppcs. In fact the recent tweet was 'Please, I beg you, don't nerf the Highlander again'".

"Yeah. The pink one. Damn poptarts. Nerf those but leave ppcs alone for now, see if nerfing the Hoglander stops those damn poptarts. That will be our balance change for this quarter. People will love it. We're giving them what they want based on player feedback. Steam is going to be great. I may even download that steamthing myself. Next quarter anyway. Don't want to over do it."

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Is it silly? We're talking about how it works at or near the pinnacle of play, which means people will only be running either the best IS quirks or Clans.

Now you're changing your argument to that ^^^^ from this:
[color=#959595]"Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you."[/color]

If you said "spreading damage from elite players using low duration weapons is a myth" I would agree with you. But the fact is, in 99% of the solo and group drops I'm in, spreading damage is real.

And there are still holes in your argument. You said human reaction speed isn't fast enough to spread damage from a .6 second burn, fair enough. By that same principle, if a target twists, sometimes exactly as the shot is fired, as I often do because I see someone facing me, the shooter can't react fast enough to correct his shot.

Furthermore, one of the big advantages of some competitive builds is loading weapons on to one side and using the other to shield with. By your argument, this is a complete waste of time.

[adamts01]

MauttyKoray, on 29 November 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

As for the firestarter, it was easily THE best IS light in the game for a long time. Able to carry a heavy armament, go a fairly high speed, and take a beating, this sucker was the king of lights and the fear of any unguarded assault. Hence, no quirks... I've actually never piloted firestarters or paid them any mind so I'm not quite sure what has happened to them in recent months other than the Arctic Cheetah fills practically the same role with better hitboxes.

The Firestarter is still really good. It packs the same punch as a Cheetah and runs cooler. Bad torso pitch, no ECM, less range, worse jumping and to a smaller extent IS XL make it less competitive with the current poking, mid/long range meta. I say IS XL to a smaller extent because Firestarters almost always die from legs. But the crap thing is, THEY DID GET QUIRKS. Some very strong ones no less. 20% heat reduction on mpl. Come on PGI.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 29 November 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Now you're changing your argument to that ^^^^ from this:
[color=#959595]"Spreading damage is a myth and always will be. You only spread damage because whoever you are fighting is either lacking or ignoring trigger discipline. As soon as you turn to face, they own whatever component they want from you."[/color]

If you said "spreading damage from elite players using low duration weapons is a myth" I would agree with you. But the fact is, in 99% of the solo and group drops I'm in, spreading damage is real.

The error is yours, not mine. I even said in the next post down from the one you quoted, in reply to Bishop, that I'm talking about top-level. That said, when I discuss anything in this game, I am always operating under the assumption that everything is being used to its maximum potential because anything less is foolish. The only way you can have a fair discussion about the mechanics of the game is if you eliminate the player variable by assuming computer precision, which means top-level play as the nearest proximal thing.

And the spreading damage might be real, but again, are they actually trying to counter your spread or are they just blasting away at you because they know you will retreat, get maimed/killed regardless of your efforts, or be otherwise be unable to do anything about it? Just because they aren't landing full damage in one spot doesn't mean they are necessarily 100% trying to, nor does it mean they necessarily need to. Remember the days of 30 or 35-point PPFLD? That's what they are doing. The laser damages are so big that they are achieving the same 30-35 damage on one component without even trying and despite efforts to spread, and that's why it's top-tier.

Quote

And there are still holes in your argument. You said human reaction speed isn't fast enough to spread damage from a .6 second burn, fair enough. By that same principle, if a target twists, sometimes exactly as the shot is fired, as I often do because I see someone facing me, the shooter can't react fast enough to correct his shot.

Practice, practice, practice. That's not really a hole that wasn't accounted for because that's still a function of pilot ability and there are ways to mitigate it. I tend to lead my shots with a smaller salvo (or otherwise split my main into two equal halves) because I know my muscle memory is going to instinctively shoot regardless of having an optimal firing solution. A smaller burst will provide an outlet for those instincts while my brain thinks, compensates, and then fires the main salvo. When I have rapid-fire lasers (i.e. SPL), then I just blaze away because I can get two or three salvos off in the time it takes you to twist, turn back, aim, and fire. I also watch targets for patterns; most players twist the same direction, or at least start a back-and-forth twist by consistently choosing one side. Ergo, the first twist session might buy the target a little time, but the second one will not.

Quote

Furthermore, one of the big advantages of some competitive builds is loading weapons on to one side and using the other to shield with. By your argument, this is a complete waste of time.

It is and it isn't. It isn't, because it allows you more tonnage for stuff by removing armor on unnecessary components. Shielding against trigger discipline, however, is fairly pointless. Why? Because if you want to shoot me you have to expose your weapon side and, if I'm not distracted, I'm just going to shoot that weapon side. If I am distracted, then it doesn't really matter if you've built asymmetrically or not because I'm not returning effective fire anyway and yo don't need to protect anything.

Besides, there is always a chance that you won't see a shot coming and you'll take an unfortunate hit to your weapon side regardless, rendering you helpless. Look at the Hellbringer.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 November 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

The error is yours, not mine. I even said in the next post down from the one you quoted, in reply to Bishop, that I'm talking about top-level.

so, the assumption made in your post is you alone in the conversation have played at the "top level".

Interesting. Especially since most LORDs, EMP and 228 that i know are masters of spreading damage.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

so, the assumption made in your post is you alone in the conversation have played at the "top level".

Interesting. Especially since most LORDs, EMP and 228 that i know are masters of spreading damage.

You are still being a passive aggressive. Why?

Also, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Because that is not at all what that says. Worse, you are ignoring the context, that being "top level play is nearest to computer precision, which is the necessary environment for discussing mechanics." It has nothing to do with my experiences, your experiences, or anybody else's. It's merely establishing controls.

And yes, they are masters at spreading damage. They are also masters at preventing you from doing the same. It's a two-way street, friend.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2015 - 11:21 PM, said:

You are still being a passive aggressive. Why?

He's not, he's calling you out like I am because your OPINION ("spreading damage is a myth") is nothing more than an OPINION. Many, many, many top level players twist to spread damage in many situations. In some situations, as you've mentioned, it's detrimental, but to say it has no place is just ridiculous.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

MischiefSC, on 29 November 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I can see that conversation.

"Hey, I think I remember getting killed by a Hoglander. That's the pink one, right? It had a gun and ppcs or something. He jumped up and shot me and I died. Someone said it was broken I think. Nerf that one."

".... that was 2 years ago. Also it's a Highlander, not a Hoglander. The one you're talking about is the Hero mech version. We've nerfed the **** out of it because every time we talk balance you bring that up and it gets nerfed again."

"Yeah. Highlander. God damn poptarts. Nerf it. Also do something about ppcs. Someone tweeted about them something. We should nerf them. Didn't we reduce heat on those? Make them hotter. That's the blue laser toilet flush things, right?"

"We did that like 2 years ago. The tweets you saw were people begging you not to nerf the Highlander again and that we should revisit ppcs. In fact the recent tweet was 'Please, I beg you, don't nerf the Highlander again'".

"Yeah. The pink one. Damn poptarts. Nerf those but leave ppcs alone for now, see if nerfing the Hoglander stops those damn poptarts. That will be our balance change for this quarter. People will love it. We're giving them what they want based on player feedback. Steam is going to be great. I may even download that steamthing myself. Next quarter anyway. Don't want to over do it."

LOL. You've fought the good fight for so long on here my friend but I guess even you have finally broken and succumbed to the same disillusioned sarcasm as the rest of us stemming from the realization that when it comes to balance they 1) don't know what they're doing and 2) can't be bothered to read their own forum more to find out #1

Maybe now you can retire from the forum and publish a collected works volume of all your unheeded balance advice postings on here over the years entitled: "What Could Have Been in 3052: The Daily Futile Struggles of One Man to Stabilize a Chaotic Piranha Tornado in Vancouver" by Sir MischiefSC

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 30 November 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

I agree, it does need the oxide structure quirks, to the torsos. It will still be more fragile than an ACH or FS9, but that is not really a problem. It's borderline now, but the CT is too easy to hit. It's still probably the 3rd best Light though (one or two raven builds might be above it, but certainly not the chassis as a whole)

Just based on being in MWO for the last 5 days almost 10 hours a day (yeah holiday and no life) I would rank the Mech appearance as such

ACH
Firestarter
Wolfhound
Raven
Locust
Mist Lynx
Jenner
Panther
Urbie
Commando
Adder
Spider
Kit Fox

I was actually keeping track of my lights, this is SOLO and Group queues and the majority and I mean MAJOR majority of those mechs were the top 5. It was rare to see anything below the Jenner.

The Jenners might need a heat quirk, but I would settle for the armor / structure for all of them. Re-doing the hit boxes ain't gonna due squat for any of them. I do not understand why they can not see this.

Grey Ghost, on 29 November 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Unless I am mistaken; back when I was heavy into the Jenner I recall losing an arm quite often and / or having one or more lasers get crit. Obviously Armor would be better, but PGI is really macking on structure right now.

Rarely did I lose an arm or a leg, it was always the CT

MauttyKoray, on 29 November 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Even though this is already a 3 page post I'll chime in. It basically went like this: Some mechs were really good, some really bad.

The Jenner was great cause its STs almost never got popped, you could shave off some armor, throw an XL in it and rarely go down from a ST loss. It was originally one of the Tier 1 light mechs in the game. Then after quirks came it leveled out a bit more with others, however it was still one of the top. Now we've got the hitbox changes and suddenly a ST can pop as easily as the CT (sometimes easier if people are still running the reduced armor STs) and since the Jenner didn't get quirks before its now showing how much of a difference the new hitboxes alone made.

As for the firestarter, it was easily THE best IS light in the game for a long time. Able to carry a heavy armament, go a fairly high speed, and take a beating, this sucker was the king of lights and the fear of any unguarded assault. Hence, no quirks... I've actually never piloted firestarters or paid them any mind so I'm not quite sure what has happened to them in recent months other than the Arctic Cheetah fills practically the same role with better hitboxes.

I was one of those that stripped the ST's bare, its what allowed the Jenner to actually be the PITA it was. It freed up 1.5 to 2 tons of space that is sorely needed. However when they exposed the ST's it removed that extra tonnage and the Jenner's performance went down the drain. This last hit box adjustment did nothing to help it, made it worse. I am SERIOUSLY skeptical on tomorrow's "fix" that it will address the core issue. THE CT AND ST's are just to damn big! You can't miss them