20 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

A Problem I've seen with a few of the mechs, Marauder included now, is that the posture they use is extremely awkward for the design. The Marauder's legs are extremely straight underneath it, making it look as though its much taller than it probably should be.

(Other than that my only complaint is that fatass cockpit, but what can ya do...)

Discuss.

[TheCharlatan]

In an interview or a post (can't remember right now) a dev explained that they have to find an average between "what looks best" and what "animates best".
Chicken walkers if they are too low on the ground look better, but animate poorly, and the opposite applies if they get straightened up.
So what we get is basically "the golden mean" of the two.

[TELEFORCE]

After watching the Marauder movement animation in both the cockpit video and the Instagram preview, I think it looks a lot like how the Marauder IIC walked in MechWarrior 2. I love it

[SpiralFace]

Do me a favor,

Bend your knees to about a 45 degree angle like you see in many BT backwards leg designs like the timberwolves etc, and then try walking forward on them.

Now record it and look how dumb it looks.

Many BT designs are not built for visual aestetics through animation in mind. They just wanted something that looks cool in a still image.

But off center hips like the marauder had (not possible balance wide on something that moves,) and legs that bend down to extreme angles and STILL have to move is something that not only doesn't happen in real life, but looks very uncanny valley when it moves.

The changes are more then likely done to give it a more "natural" look when it is animated to make it more grounded in the world and not looking "weird" because its trying to run at a half squat.

Even chicken legs in real life are'nt that much of a deviation from what they are doing with them now:

[TheCharlatan]

SpiralFace, on 29 November 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Do me a favor,

Bend your knees to about a 45 degree angle like you see in many BT backwards leg designs like the timberwolves etc, and then try walking forward backwards on them.

Now record it and look how dumb it looks.

FTFY

[Xhaleon]

SpiralFace, on 29 November 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Do me a favor,

Excuse me, but human legs aren't chicken legs nor completely artificial robutt legs and thus it is completely unreasonable to compare them.

Mechwarrior 3 animated just fine, so the fault here lies entirely with the style of the animation team. Some MWO chickenwalkers do not leap through the air enough while running, causing them to have this sort of sneaky-tip-toeing gait even when moving at top speed. The Mad Cat is a very egregious example, though the some of them seem to be relatively okay such as the Jaguar in my opinion.

Edited by Xhaleon, 29 November 2015 - 07:44 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

Xhaleon, on 29 November 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Excuse me, but human legs aren't chicken legs nor completely artificial robutt legs and thus it is completely unreasonable to compare them.

Mechwarrior 3 animated just fine, so the fault here lies entirely with the style of the animation team. Some MWO chickenwalkers do not leap through the air enough while running, causing them to have this sort of sneaky-tip-toeing gait even when moving at top speed. The Mad Cat is a very egregious example, though the some of them seem to be relatively okay such as the Jaguar in my opinion.

Not to mention that TW's (Madcat's) legs in MWO are going right through its arm under certain Torso twist degree. Not only its legs are ugly, but its weird long steps walking animation prevents the Timber to be in pair with new era laws of physics. xD

[Sabazial]

If the guys from MW4 could animate chicken walkers successfully there's no reason the PGI animators can't pull it off 15 years later with better animation tools than were available back then.



Edit: Typo

Edited by Belphegore, 29 November 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Aresye]

It isn't so much the "design" can't be animated well. As long as you have a mechanical system that has a good visual center of gravity and range of movement, any decent animator can make a believable walk cycle, the lower stance requiring more exaggeration and follow-through.

The problem is the cockpit camera that's constrained inside the cockpit that you look through. A more exaggerated and fluid gait for the chicken walkers would LOOK awesome from the outside, but would be completely unplayable from the inside.

*Edit*
Tell ya what. I've got an in-game TBR that I rigged inside Maya. I'll constrain a camera inside the cockpit and show you all what I mean.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 29 November 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

TheCharlatan, on 29 November 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

In an interview or a post (can't remember right now) a dev explained that they have to find an average between "what looks best" and what "animates best".
Chicken walkers if they are too low on the ground look better, but animate poorly, and the opposite applies if they get straightened up.
So what we get is basically "the golden mean" of the two.

This is compounded by the fact that chicken walkers really don't "work" mechanically. They are not a true digitigrade, but instead a simplified and reversed plantigrade. the loss of the "extra" joint really hinders the ability to walk, let alone run, and thus is naturally very hard to animate well. Especially if they don't allow for "slop" movement around the hips.

Guess which one doesn't exist in nature?

even the most famous Chicken Walker, the AT-ST is actually a digitigrade unguligrade (good catch Mautty)

the next most famous

required a lot of hip sway just to walk, could NOT run, and was famously defeated by stairs.

Because while it LOOKS cool, the sci-fi chicken walker is actually abject CRAP as a method of locomotion.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

The AT-ST is more of a Unguligrade with flat feet instead of walking on its toes.

I never said the mech had to be super crouched down, but as it is now the think looks like it should be walking stiff legged. Even if its a slight crouch I feel it would look significantly better, a slight bend at each of the joints to create a more menacing posture and it looks look 10 times better and the reduced height would be an added bonus imo.

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

the next most famous

required a lot of hip sway just to walk, could NOT run, and was famously defeated by stairs.

Because while it LOOKS cool, the sci-fi chicken walker is actually abject CRAP as a method of locomotion.

Defeated by stairs because it's feet were 20 times bigger than the stairs.

If the stairs had been 3-4 feet long, instead of 8-12 inches, can you be sure the result would be the same?

[Burktross]

Aresye Kerensky, on 29 November 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

It isn't so much the "design" can't be animated well. As long as you have a mechanical system that has a good visual center of gravity and range of movement, any decent animator can make a believable walk cycle, the lower stance requiring more exaggeration and follow-through.

The problem is the cockpit camera that's constrained inside the cockpit that you look through. A more exaggerated and fluid gait for the chicken walkers would LOOK awesome from the outside, but would be completely unplayable from the inside.

*Edit*
Tell ya what. I've got an in-game TBR that I rigged inside Maya. I'll constrain a camera inside the cockpit and show you all what I mean.

I'm fairly certain in game cockpit sway does not correlate with actual world model cockpit bob. Not like it matters anyway-- we don't have any headbob to complement glorious stompiness.

[XX Sulla XX]

Seems fine to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 29 November 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

Defeated by stairs because it's feet were 20 times bigger than the stairs.

If the stairs had been 3-4 feet long, instead of 8-12 inches, can you be sure the result would be the same?

Yes. Actually. lacking a mandatory joint in the process, it would possibly be able to mount extremely shallow stairs, but it would be pathetically slow, and largely incapable of compensating for weight shifts.

Feel free to look up the mechanical limitations of chickenwalkers. There are several engineering and robotic sites that debate it. Go ahead and settle into a deep crouch, then try to walk, run and navigate terrain backwards. That is quite literally how a "chicken walker" mechanically operates.

Mechanically speaking, it's a horrible design... which is probably why it doesn't exist in nature.

MauttyKoray, on 29 November 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

The AT-ST is more of a Unguligrade with flat feet instead of walking on its toes.

I never said the mech had to be super crouched down, but as it is now the think looks like it should be walking stiff legged. Even if its a slight crouch I feel it would look significantly better, a slight bend at each of the joints to create a more menacing posture and it looks look 10 times better and the reduced height would be an added bonus imo.

Actually, it doesn't have flat feet

But you are indeed correct that I misspoke, and it's an Unguligrade (good catch), not a digitigrade. It even has a "hoof".

Point was primarily that even the most famous "chicken walker" wasn't, and to point out the "hidden hip".

The classic "chicken walker" is actually quite literally a reverse-plantigrade, which is horribly inefficient.

But I do agree about the crouch, though IMO it needs a LOT more than that to look menacing (like trimming about 15% off it's butt, and sucking those side intakes in a bit). I made a similar thread and suggestion about the Vulture if you recall (never applied) and complaining got them to model a crough into the Ebon Jag.

Probably a little late to get them to re-rig, unfortunately....though.

Also let's not forget.... the original Marauder was ALL leg

would love to see Alex's design remodeled to those proportions... in fact, I might have me next project.....

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[Sjorpha]

IMHO the original Maurader image looks very cartoonish, the proportions are pretty silly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 29 November 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

IMHO the original Maurader image looks very cartoonish, the proportions are pretty silly.

I would agree.. not sure that the MWO one looks particularly better proportioned, but it does at least look like it could walk without falling over.

I still prefer the a slight redo of the Reseen, personally.

[MauttyKoray]

Sjorpha, on 29 November 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

IMHO the original Maurader image looks very cartoonish, the proportions are pretty silly.

Well, that's because it was in fact a cartoon at its source, lol.

As for the core of my opinion, I'm not trying to turn it into some silly looking nova-crouched Marauder. I just think that its aesthetically standing up too straight, and if they'd used an ever so slightly more crouched-

emphasis on slight

-stance it would look much better for the design. I feel like comparing the model and concept art, it looks really good from the design standpoint other than I still don't like the cockpit but its honestly not enough to cause a riot (like the horrible job they did on the Enforcer, worst mech model of 2015 imo and the blasphemy they did on that WAS riot worthy) and even the overall scaling seems decent. (now we just need to fix the scale on the old mechs and any existing discrepancies from post-clan invasion)

[LordKnightFandragon]

SpiralFace, on 29 November 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Do me a favor,

Bend your knees to about a 45 degree angle like you see in many BT backwards leg designs like the timberwolves etc, and then try walking forward on them.

Now record it and look how dumb it looks.

Many BT designs are not built for visual aestetics through animation in mind. They just wanted something that looks cool in a still image.

But off center hips like the marauder had (not possible balance wide on something that moves,) and legs that bend down to extreme angles and STILL have to move is something that not only doesn't happen in real life, but looks very uncanny valley when it moves.

The changes are more then likely done to give it a more "natural" look when it is animated to make it more grounded in the world and not looking "weird" because its trying to run at a half squat.

Even chicken legs in real life are'nt that much of a deviation from what they are doing with them now:

There is only like 1 mech I think that walks like that.....Thug? Idk, there was like 1 mech I saw somewhere that had forward bent legs, thought it looked dorky as all hell.

The Chicken legged mechs look and walk cool, when done right.

MWO has every mech just kinda fast skipping around. Like the Dire Wolf and Warhawk? They dont walk, or run, they take like baby step fast skips. It looks dorky as hell.....

Mechwarrior 2 made chicken walkers look cool, even think MW3 and 4 did a better job.

[Vellron2005]

Well, I don't know about locomotion, I just know that the chicken walkers in MWO look AWESOME.

All except the king crab.. That mech looks like it shouldn't be able to stand, much less walk. I'm shure that if they made it into a miniature, it could not actually stand and support its weight, but would promptly topple over.

This reminds me.. I wish at some point they did the Behemoth / Stone Rhino. There's an example of a mech that could barely support its own weight.