17 replies to this topic

[Black Fish]

Was just about to get into Cataphracts when the Warhammer was announced, mainly because I found the CTF-4X to be so attracting. seems the Black Widow can work those quad AC5s even better with no armor on the arms and a 280 XL with a DHS instead of the max 255 of the 4X...

EDIT: and obviously the higher-mounted-non-gorilla-arms

Edited by Black Fish, 29 November 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Tough to tell with IS mech since the viability of them completely revolves around their quirks.

The CTF-4X quirks that might be coming Dec 1st from the latest PTS patch notes seems to make it a fairly resilient heavy, with massive structure bonus' on it and a nice set of ballistic buffs.

The thing is though, that these buffs also come with the CTF's low slung weapons profile which means you have to expose most of your mech to bring its armaments to bear. while many war-hammers are going to have fairly better "mid slung" ballistics's hard points at around the belly of the mech with higher hard point mounts based on their new profiles.

So really, its going to be impossible to tell on paper until the warhammer quirks come out in the final game to see which one is better.

Warhammer is a much better 70 tonner based on geometry and hardpoint locations, but the CTF's massive structure quirks is going to make that thing really tough to bring down come Dec 1st if it keeps those changes. And we won't know if the Warhammer is going to be getting similar things until it comes out.

Edited by SpiralFace, 29 November 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[HollowBassman]

I could never make the 4x work unless I caught someone(or even two someones) out in the open. If the enemy has cover to peek at you from the 4x doesn't last long. I still own one but it is collecting dust and stripped of equipment.

The Black Widow will probably be the better mech especially when you consider it will likely be smaller than a Cataphract judging from the other new mechs that have been released.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Running an XL in a mech that is slow, isn't an assault and needs to stare the enemy down to do damage (ballistics platform), is not advised.

[TheCharlatan]

The 4X is a fun mech, but hardly competitive when you're armed with low slung DPS weapons.
It rocks in Mordor, though.
The Black widow might do it better, but quirks are going to be a big factor.

[Bishop Steiner]

Black Fish, on 29 November 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Was just about to get into Cataphracts when the Warhammer was announced, mainly because I found the CTF-4X to be so attracting. seems the Black Widow can work those quad AC5s even better with no armor on the arms and a 280 XL with a DHS instead of the max 255 of the 4X...

EDIT: and obviously the higher-mounted-non-gorilla-arms

the biggest flaw on the 4X is it's low speed. HAving Atlas speed on a 70 tonner is not a great recipe. Add in the low hardpoints, and in the post Clan world, it is unfortunately not very good.

I do miss this old guy though
CTF-4X

That said, post Dec 1, it's new quirks look very good, so maybe it will become a little more competitive again. Though it's another example of PGI needing to relax their engine cap rule a little bit. (Like they did with the Bounty Hunter and Panther and Urbanmech). Really feel that all Heavies should at least be able to do the basic 4/6 movement speeds pre speed tweak.

As for the BW, the issue is going to revolve around if it's XL viable or not. Without an XL, you don't have the tonnage to use those quad Ballistics effectively, and even if one does XL, you either have essentially no backup weapons, or light ammo.

Or move slow as a Direwolf.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 November 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[BigBenn]

The CTF-4X is a beast. I too love the quad AC5's, with the quirks and modules you can shred apart enemy heavy and assault mechs real quick like. However, you're at a loss vs the ankle biters.

I say leave the Warhammer to the Warhammer builds (not quad AC5's).

[SpiralFace]

Don't forget that AC2's are also getting a much needed efficiency boost as well. So quad AC5 is not the only thing you can use the 4x for.

quad 5's or even dual Ultra 5's paired with AC2's might make for good sustained DPS builds.

[Scar Glamour]

Kristian Radoulov, on 29 November 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Running an XL in a mech that is slow, isn't an assault and needs to stare the enemy down to do damage (ballistics platform), is not advised.

I don't want to sound like a smartass... but did you just call all Jagger dakka builds ill-advised? Sounds a bit extreme.

[Bishop Steiner]

Winterburn, on 29 November 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I don't want to sound like a smartass... but did you just call all Jagger dakka builds ill-advised? Sounds a bit extreme.

most Jagers still move better than the 4X, and have high mounted hardpoints to allow it to use terrain to shield.

Apples and Oranges...and TBH; XLs in Jagers are a razors edge tradeoff... you get more dakka, but if someone is willing to brave it for a volley or two, they will take that torso almost every time. There's a reason the most effective Jager is the Dual Gauss. Range and PP-FLD allow it to shoot and twist or scoot, instead of eating return fire.

[Scar Glamour]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

most Jagers still move better than the 4X, and have high mounted hardpoints to allow it to use terrain to shield.

Apples and Oranges...and TBH; XLs in Jagers are a razors edge tradeoff... you get more dakka, but if someone is willing to brave it for a volley or two, they will take that torso almost every time. There's a reason the most effective Jager is the Dual Gauss. Range and PP-FLD allow it to shoot and twist or scoot, instead of eating return fire.

I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but I find a 3xUAC/5 Ilya just as uncomfortable to try to out-trade as a 3xUAC/5 JM6-DD.

[Bishop Steiner]

Winterburn, on 29 November 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but I find a 3xUAC/5 Ilya just as uncomfortable to try to out-trade as a 3xUAC/5 JM6-DD.

preference is indeed part of it, but the ilya I can almost always use terrain to block it's fire, and flank. Jagers are more difficult to do that with. Also the upper STs of a Cataphract are some of the most exposed, easiest to hit in the game.

It's just that most people flinch the moment they take damage, and then the flashes and explosions , etc screws their ability to return fire.

[Ultimax]

Low slung arms, low engine cap. Skip it for now.


If after the PTS suddenly you see people playing them and saying it's amazing, you will have lost nothing and can pick it up then.


I doubt that though.

[LT. HARDCASE]

There's almost no scenario in which the 4X ends up being equal or superior to the Warhammer.

Even with subpar hitboxes, the WHM would at least have higher ballistic mounts and less of a barn door effect.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've had a lot of success with my 4X. It doesn't have the single-shot punch of many of its competitors, but it can push out a lot of hurt very quickly while still being surprisingly tough for an XL carrier. The low arms are less of an issue on certain maps where side peeking is better than ridge humping, though they can get you into difficulties when engaging people at differing elevations.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Black Fish, on 29 November 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Was just about to get into Cataphracts when the Warhammer was announced, mainly because I found the CTF-4X to be so attracting. seems the Black Widow can work those quad AC5s even better with no armor on the arms and a 280 XL with a DHS instead of the max 255 of the 4X...

EDIT: and obviously the higher-mounted-non-gorilla-arms

First of all, shaving armor on a humanoid mech's arms is usually a bad idea. You can shield and absorb damage by twisting. Second, the CTF-4X has just enough ammo as is with the xl255, and runs low ammo if you decide to mount any lasers. I have run out of ammo on it many times. Third, its all dependent on quirks what will be the best build, and I highly doubt the quirks are going to be as good as the CTF-4X for quad ac5 on a 70 ton mech.

Most likely the quirks will support the weapons that come stock on the mech, but im sure it will be a great mech, I already ordered the $20 package with the hero.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

LT. HARDCASE, on 29 November 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

There's almost no scenario in which the 4X ends up being equal or superior to the Warhammer.

It all depends on quirks with the Warhammer. Also, never underestimate a quad ac5 CTF-4X, I have utterly destroyed Timberwolves/assault mechs with it in matches, it is a good mech, its just slow.

Edited by Alwrath, 29 November 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Zordicron]

4x is an interesting beast. I mean, even if there is a better one out there, unless you are space-bucks broke, I would pick on up anyway. SOme things you can do-
quad AC5
2x UAC5, 2x AC2
UAC5, AC5, 2x AC2
twin AC10 and lasers, or lol single missiles
Twin goose(others do it better, but it is possible)

Well I mean you get the idea. It was actually my first purchased mech, back in beta days when I first started. I mean, lol I had to learn this game with a 4X before HSR code. It made me a good shot, and pretty aware of the battlefield lol
Basically, it is pretty unique even for an oldie, and if you get bored with something, there is another half dozen combos to switch it up with to go dakka robbits with.

So buy it. Then buy a warhammer too, later, and use the warhammer for other stuff. Or the same stuff, but different. You know what i mean.