30 replies to this topic

[Russhuster]

@ karl your own words say

IS SINGLE heat sinks extern capacity 1.2

Clan !!! DOUBLE !!! heat sinks external capacity 1.1

so what is nonsense in calling that a joke, and what is wrong then with my math calling this fact a bad one

exact THAT is the reason why you can vomit 4 alphas with an IS and maybe one alpha with a clan engine


@ inglix

that bugs and malfunctions are reased/fixed should be primary business behaviour in a game trying to place itself on the hard fought market.
knowing a defiency is known and despite that knowledge there s nothing done to fix that keeps an lets say unprofessional impression with the customer that leads to a kind of le se faire feeling and no one wants to be treated like that, or spends money there

Edited by Russhuster, 16 December 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Russhuster, on 16 December 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

@ karl your own words say

IS SINGLE heat sinks extern capacity 1.2

Clan !!! DOUBLE !!! heat sinks external capacity 1.1

just take a closer look at those external heat sinks. I know that there are clan Mechs that don't have 10 internals like the Mist Lynx who has just 7 internals, but for this example i state that the 250 is the minimum reactor:

also marked the maximum efficient number of heatsinks for a IS and Clan Mech and keep some room for weapons and armor.



i admit that the more important thing is to get a closer look how dissipation and capacity work together. But i have not yet found a good formula....

but in general you can see that you need less tons for cDHS to get the same capacity as iSHS, you start with 8t difference and you need at least 5t less when you reach the maximum of 30-32 cDHS (HGN IIC; with std325 - could mount 32 cDHS - with 4 slots and 10ton for weapons (not that it is a good build)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 December 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[Russhuster]

as you state yourself again that does not make good builds

[Karl Streiger]

Selective reading aye?
I don't said the Clan builds are bad just that at the end of the possible the is shs could have better heat capacity and heat dissipation.

But the average Clan build is around 12-20 cDHS, some like Executioner and Warhawk may use more.

But still the iSHS is a nice to have if you don't have the money, but they are no option for iDHS or if Clans were able to use cSHS.
The main problematic with the current game mechanic is the slightly increased Alpha Capability of the IS Mechs. Not that it does matter - this tiny 0.1 point doesn't hurt much. Considering those 50 points heat cap you get for nothing.
But the trend is strange. The Heat capacity is big enough that even a mech with non sufficient heatsinks can go full Alpha for some time.
Consider this CTF-3D - i can't remember if it was 100% valid before ghost heat - but it was a serious problem - because it was able to fire its 4 PPCs but its obvious that it don't have enough heat sinks for this weapons.

So they "invented" Ghost Heat.... because Alpha is bad? The issue is it did not have mattert so much in closed beta - such builds did exist but they were few.

Why is alpha bad? For one reason because it allows to stack weapons and hit one component instead of spreading the damage.
But there is another problem with Ghost Heats its an arbitrary system, could call it even tyranny of ghost heat
Because this guy was (think as it is a AWS-9Q) cancelled: AWS-98Q Although it uses 10tons of heatsinks he can not use those 4 PPCs.
Of course it shows another problem and one of the most unsubtle mistakes done in the "original" the Double Heat Sink. AWS-8Q - it uses 18tons of heatsinks and is still not able to use its 3 PPCs in one volley!!!

But i mentioned the tyranny : what about this guy?
BL-7-KNT
The good: finally IS MPLAS got a Ghost Heat value, only take a year. well its still able to fire 1 volley of his 9 MPLAS for 45 heat....so the next volley will overheat him.
But whats this?
BL-7-KNT MPLAS and MLAS are not linked

oh before you start to say becaus its IS and PGI hates Clan... this goes in both directions:

TBR-A but with the difference that it will shut down when firing all its 9 Medium Lasers, although its oversinked. (It would have overheat and shutdown even before the "external capacity nerf"

But the bad part about it: TBR-A
This time it won't shut down on an alpha strike, its range is increased and and it deals almost the same damage.

Of course i don't want to say that those build can virtually work in the game. But for each Mech that ghost heat prevent there are a dozen that still work.

So the main issue for balancing in MWO are three parts:

• heat system
  
• stacking of smaller weapons for more damage
  
• armor system

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 December 2015 - 12:21 AM.

[The Basilisk]

While I second this explenation and revel your stats and charts as most intresting and helpfull I find the heatdiscussion concerning IS and Clans balancing too specific to be REALY relevant in the bigger picture.

It starts with the basic Concept of Clans in the Game.
The Devs tryed ( like so many times before and failed ) to go the easy way and just nerf the Clans technology untill its comparable with IS technology just with an other flavor, like the clans hud.

Weapons / Tech and heatbalancing already was completely off between IS Weapons and Mechs due to omissions in the factors balancing the Items and Mechs in TT.
( Yea yea insert random B.S. reply for "you can't convert turn based TT rules into a sim copmuter game" again BT TT is not balanced around turns but around 10 secs timeframes, a value that could have been just taken to the computer game )

Some weapons like ER PPC, ERLLaser and Gauss where already completely OP in TT if seen as single item compared to their lowtech counterparts.
BUT ONLY if you alowed random Mech customization and completely droped the availability and prize fluctuations due to local availability or faction specificness.
And thats just one balancing factor just cutaway from the big delicate balancing building.
Maintenance and ammunition ( also sparepart availability and ammo availability ) are a balancing factor towards " dont mount weapons you cant afford"

The opener of this thread already stated most of the main sins of MWO and got little applaus I'll reiterate and add some:

-- Instant convergence:
balancing and individualisation possibility for different chassis if convergence would not be instant

-- pinpoint dmg focus:
a balancing possibbility for light weapon stacking, make single weapon firing more accurate than multiple -> buff for heavy single weapons, conquers laser and AC boating

-- Targeting or the lack of targetting effects:
If someone is targeting you should be warned --> Warning enemy FCS lock !
If someone is lighting you up with fire control radar/ sensors you should see him on the map, FCR lock should be imperative for convergence ( they where already implementing this on testservers for lasers and but then shyed away ... why ??? And radarlock is already a must have for LRMs why not for laser convergence or SRM ( thinking of unguided torpedo behavior ) FCS )
Again here is LOTS of room for IS / Clan flavor, Mech individualisation and great options for player rating and reward systems in match.

-- same basic scenario rules for Clans and IS:
like it was requested so many times before make Clans as strong as they should be but drop just 10 mechs with lower weight limit than IS 75 % per mech in CW and insert a battlevalue system (like in TT campaigns) in pugmatches alongside psr.
Rewardsystem of clans should be completely differ from IS.
Clan favor singlecombat solokills and direct fire and punish indirect fire, fire from behind and teaming up on an enemy.
IS is vice versa with differences in House factions. ( Kurita is more honorable but also more realistic than Liao or Steiner, Davion are somewhat inbetween and Marik more opportunistic/ matter of fact like )
--> Playstyles of factions differ

Again:
For clans this means they have the biggest best menest and most awesome mechs in the universe but abhore teaming up on an enemy and punish dishonorable combat.
Think of the momentary reward system. You get ploints and psr rating for flanking scouting solokills savior kills and so on.
It could be so effin easy.

Just give Clans op mechs but prevent them from playing like IS. Even punish them severely for doing so.
The tools for doing so are ingame already.

-- Terrain Interaction:
Yea appart from mechs got stopped by every pebble there is virtualy none.
You know 35T battlemech running into water at 150kph without loosning its leggs jumping at full run on a rugged plain without toppling and such nonsense.
Again great possibilitys for mech characterisation and Clan vs IS dicerning. ( you know Clans 300 years of militech development further than IS --> better mats and movement systems and so on )


So what I am saying the problems with MWO are far more basic than one little aspect like heatsinks and such things.

Edited by The Basilisk, 18 December 2015 - 02:19 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

The Basilisk, on 18 December 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

So what I am saying the problems with MWO are far more basic than one little aspect like heatsinks and such things.

There is nothing more basic than heat.
With a working heat system, that doesn't feel like it was just implemented because its part of the lore.
Everything else (including roll warfare) happens on their own.

[Russhuster]

I go with most of your aspects, and am the same opinion about heat as Karl, but you know with PGI there are no such things as easy solutions, regretfully

but when basic issues like bug control arnt taken seriously, heat management etc are nerfed or buffed off any common sense
the fun goes down the hill

[Dawnstealer]

Said elsewhere: balance Range to Damage, make everything else equal.

Easiest example is the ERLL.

IS ERLL would do 9 damage and have a steep dropoff in damage, with a max range of 1,350m. But it would be at about 50% power (4.5 points of damage) at about 450m (a third - so steep drop. Get it?).

Clan ERLL would do 7 damage and have a shallow dropoff in damage, with a max range of 1,480m. It would be at 50% power (3.5 damage) at about 740m (about half - so a shallower drop).

Clans would do damage out to a longer range than their IS counterparts, and more consistent damage - a stronger beam.

IS would do a lot of damage, but only when they're relatively close.

The end result would be that the IS would try to get to brawling range, where they could maximize their damage, while the Clans would want to play keepaway where they could maintain their distance advantage.

For things like Streaks, make the locktime greater for more missiles. SSRM2 would be pretty quick, SSRM6 would take a while.

Ballistics...same thing with Range v Damage.

No ghost heat, no long burn times, no long cooldown times.

[RolfS]

If armour can absorb damage without being reduced a lot of the game balance would work better. Assault could take more damage and boating would not be as effective.
The absorbtion values could be calculated from the total armour on a specific body part (and + - depending on part)

For instance Large Laser fired on
Locust : full damage on internal and armour
Hunchback: full damage on internal and armour
Timber Wolf: halved damage and slight damage to armour
Atlas: no damage

Small laser fire on:
Locust : full damage on internal and armour
Hunchback: halved damage to armour and normal damage to internals
Timber Wolf: no damage to armour
Atlas: no damage to armour

AC/20 fired on:
Locust : by pass armour full damage to internals
Hunchback: by pass armour full damage to internals
Timber Wolf: damage to armour and damage to internals
Atlas: damage to armour and internals

Some weapons such as Gauss Rifle can be tweaked to only some damage to internals but be good against anything

Gauss Rifle fired on:
Locust : by pass armour some damage to internals
Hunchback: by pass armour some damage to internals
Timber Wolf: by pass armour some damage to internals
Atlas: some damage to armour and some damage to internals

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

add in new gear an weapons

some examples

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry4817290

they are trying to do things with quirks that could be solved with this stuff

plus if this doesn't work would always give minor quirks

[Tarl Cabot]

The Basilisk, on 18 December 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

.....

Weapons / Tech and heatbalancing already was completely off between IS Weapons and Mechs due to omissions in the factors balancing the Items and Mechs in TT.
( Yea yea insert random B.S. reply for "you can't convert turn based TT rules into a sim copmuter game" again BT TT is not balanced around turns but around 10 secs timeframes, a value that could have been just taken to the computer game )
......

So what I am saying the problems with MWO are far more basic than one little aspect like heatsinks and such things.

That is where the posters need to step away from BT and head over to Solaris 7, as it had weapon delays (cooldown) and such. How a mech plays in TT does not match what happens to them with the same action as in S7. The Heatsink overhead in S7 is much smaller than it is in TT.

Example:

TT - 10secs round 4ERppc mech with 30DHS and not moving can fire 4erppc = 60heat, End of round with 30DHS=60, mech still at zero heat.

S7 - 2.5 sec round mech not moving. heat scale 120 (heat generated 4x TT scale, but cooldown does not change).

• 1st round Fire 4ERPPC = (4*15)*4 = 240 heat. 30DHS=60. end of first round 180heat on 120 heatscale. Rolls if any ammo.
  
• 2nd round no actions, rolls to make if any ammo such as for AMS, heat down to 120 on 120heat scale.
  
• 3rd round no actions, some rolls for any ammo, heat now down to 60heat.
  
• 4th round. Mech is active (provided it survived all of the rolls the previous rounds. It can walk/run but can not fire (ERPPC delay of 3) Ends with zero heat.
  
• 5th round mech active. If it has not been taken out of commission in the previous rounds, it can fire 1/2/3/4 ERPPC...

In S7 play, It has been shut down for 2 rounds or 5.0 seconds, stuck in a 7.5m hex. In TT, it would be moving and firing from one 10sec round to the next 10sec round with nothing to worry about.

So, is MWO closer to S7 or TT in game play, in how your actions have a greater consequence? At least in MWO now, if you go over the heat cap, your mech may very well take heat damage.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 December 2015 - 08:06 PM.