32 replies to this topic

[0111101]

Dear Russ Bullock,

I hear you like your Dragon a lot. You've trained it well and soar through the skies, twisting off damage while dishing out 800+. But I've also heard that you're in Tier 3.

I'm happy to hear that you're playing the game, and that you are using your experience to help inform balancing decisions. I am concerned, however, that the gameplay you're experiencing is not representative of the overall balance of the game.

With that in mind I have a proposition: boost your account up to Tier 1 and start playing until you really get a feel for it. How else will you know how to balance the game for all skill levels if your perspective is only from the middle of the pack?

Sincerely,
0111101

[LordKnightFandragon]

Because middle of the pack is how they should balance a game. Dont make it so hard cuz your balancing around the '1337' players and dont balance it around the Scrub Mcmuffins, cuz then its going to be so easy you can AFK and win.

But middle of the pack, its where the gameplay is neither to hard, nor to easy. its not all 1, 2, 3, 4, I love marine corps and its also not..lolmommy, what game is this me is plays!?

You get pretty much average gameplay.

The hard core players will then figure it out and use teamwork to win, the scrubs will always be scrubs and the average guys will continue to play and have fun.

[Coolant]

and you can't possibly tell me he can't drop in any tier he wants lol...being president and all. Or any other dev if they choose too..

[Troutmonkey]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 December 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

Because middle of the pack is how they should balance a game. Dont make it so hard cuz your balancing around the '1337' players and dont balance it around the Scrub Mcmuffins, cuz then its going to be so easy you can AFK and win.

No, you balance for the top tier. Top tier players can and will exploit any balance issues. Just because something is fine for lower groups doesn't mean that the top tier players won't find a way to min-max it and turn it into something far more powerful. Some of these unbalanced builds will filter down through to the lower tiers and unbalance the meta there too. If weapons are balanced at the top tier, than they'll be balanced for everyone.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 01 December 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[Phashe]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 December 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

Because middle of the pack is how they should balance a game. Dont make it so hard cuz your balancing around the '1337' players and dont balance it around the Scrub Mcmuffins, cuz then its going to be so easy you can AFK and win.

But middle of the pack, its where the gameplay is neither to hard, nor to easy. its not all 1, 2, 3, 4, I love marine corps and its also not..lolmommy, what game is this me is plays!?

You get pretty much average gameplay.

The hard core players will then figure it out and use teamwork to win, the scrubs will always be scrubs and the average guys will continue to play and have fun.

Yup.

[Metus regem]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

No, you balance for the top tier. Top tier players can and will exploit any balance issues. Just because something is fine for lower groups doesn't mean that the top tier players won't find a way to min-max it and turn it into something far more powerful. Some of these unbalanced builds will filter down through to the lower tiers and unbalance the meta there too. If weapons are balanced at the top tier, than they'll be balanced for everyone.

That's bull crap, a better pilot will be better no matter what they are using. The folks that think T1/2 make you elite in MWO have no idea how skill less this game really is, even more so with meta laser/Gauss meta.

There is very little skill to heat management, positioning amd torso twisting, that people actually think that PSR is anything other than an xp bar or win/loss counter. You want a game that actually needs skills, play World of Warships. At least there you need to know how and when to use AP or HE, when to use narrow or wide spread torpedos, how to adjust for spped and distance in your shots, as well as dealing with energy loss from your rounds as they travel long distances.

[WhineyThePoo]

Metus regem, on 01 December 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

You want a game that actually needs skills, play World of Warships.

Say what? Skill? That game has AIM ASSIST FFS, how much skill does it take to aim at the little circle the game tells you to aim at if you want to hit the enemy?

[Nightmare1]

Hardcore pilots don't have enough to do with their lives and constitute a smaller portion of the gaming population. Think of them as the loud, squeaky minority. I wouldn't balance the game specifically to meet their whims simply because they squeak and want oil. I'd balance for the good of the game and the majority of the gaming population. If the leets are still squeaky at that point, then I may dunk their heads in a bucket of oil and tell them to get over it.

Seriously though, some people take this game way too seriously. Just balance it for the majority of the average player population. That's the biggest consumer group and it makes the most economical sense. The leets will poke holes in everything, regardless of whatever the devs do, simply because that's how that are. If genuine problems are raised, then they can be addressed. If it's just nitpicky stuff, then the leets should be ignored if the majority of pilots are enjoying it.

The tail shouldn't wag the dog.

[Troutmonkey]

Nightmare1, on 01 December 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Hardcore pilots don't have enough to do with their lives and constitute a smaller portion of the gaming population. Think of them as the loud, squeaky minority. I wouldn't balance the game specifically to meet their whims simply because they squeak and want oil. I'd balance for the good of the game and the majority of the gaming population. If the leets are still squeaky at that point, then I may dunk their heads in a bucket of oil and tell them to get over it. Seriously though, some people take this game way too seriously. Just balance it for the majority of the average player population. That's the biggest consumer group and it makes the most economical sense. The leets will poke holes in everything, regardless of whatever the devs do, simply because that's how that are. If genuine problems are raised, then they can be addressed. If it's just nitpicky stuff, then the leets should be ignored if the majority of pilots are enjoying it. The tail shouldn't wag the dog.

No. You balance for the top end. Any imbalance in the middle or lower tiers will be amplified 10x when exploited by the top end. Leading to a stale meta for T1 players. If you balance for the top players than the game will be balanced for all players. It's pretty simple

[PholkLorr]

Nobody with a reasonable IQ level balances for middle tier people.

Not Valve, not Blizzard, not Activision.

You guys are right in one thing though: what skill is required in this game? They're fricking ezmode "skills" compared to other games out there. There's a reason im the best player in this game and not other FPS.

You guys call this the "thinking man's shooter"? Ha, don't kid yourself. Its the "old man's shooter". Most of you playing this obscure game are old men with deteriorating reflexes (as am i) who were kids/teens when the original BT/MW games were released. The game is obscure and not well received by younger and better players which is why old cryhards like you can even stay at tier 3 and 4. Everything moves so slowly, the skill gulf between a pro and a bad is not so big that 1 pro can wipe out 5 bads by himself (as you can do in every other fps). You tier 3 cryhards, go play any other FPS, you won't even be tier 4. You will be tier 100. You will be so frustrated at being food for every other player that you won't even play it (and in fact you don't, for your sanity's sake because if you did, you would be having an existential crisis with the knowledge of how sucky you are).

You know what's the best part? Even though this game is "skilless" (as the old cryhards love to say) and the tier bar was just an exp bar (even i THOUGHT this was the case until i was proven wrong by cryhards), they can't even get to tier 1. That's right, they don't even have that tiny bit of <whatever it is you call it, which in layman terms is called skill> to move that frigging exp bar to tier 1. A RIGGED exp bar DESIGNED to get you to tier 1 to boot. I really thought that it was an exp bar until i saw how infested this game is with tier 3 and 4 scrubs who get stuck in their tiers to prove to me that my initial assumption about the tier bar was wrong.

[Metus regem]

WhineyThePoo, on 01 December 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

Say what? Skill? That game has AIM ASSIST FFS, how much skill does it take to aim at the little circle the game tells you to aim at if you want to hit the enemy?

Funny I don't see a target leading box any on my game screen.... What teir of ships are you using? I'm in t5-7 ships right now.

[Jun Watarase]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

No. You balance for the top end. Any imbalance in the middle or lower tiers will be amplified 10x when exploited by the top end. Leading to a stale meta for T1 players. If you balance for the top players than the game will be balanced for all players. It's pretty simple

Theres a simple solution to this. The T1 players can not abuse the meta. Back in the old days when battletech was played in local games stores, there was a really simple balancing mechanism. If someone kept abusing the meta and being a tryhard, he would quickly find himself out of people to play with. There was therefore an incentive to not abuse the meta. Its a shame MWO doesnt have a mechanism like that.

[Troutmonkey]

Jun Watarase, on 01 December 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Theres a simple solution to this. The T1 players can not abuse the meta. Back in the old days when battletech was played in local games stores, there was a really simple balancing mechanism. If someone kept abusing the meta and being a tryhard, he would quickly find himself out of people to play with. There was therefore an incentive to not abuse the meta. Its a shame MWO doesnt have a mechanism like that.

This isn't table top at your local game store. This is an online game where the rules can be changed to quickly address balance issues. You can't peer pressure someone away from using the best possible build just because you don't like it. If something is clearly imbalanced than it needs to be fixed. No amount of calling people "tryhards" or "leetards" ended the PPC + Guass / PPC + AC5 meta.

[WhineyThePoo]

Metus regem, on 01 December 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Funny I don't see a target leading box any on my game screen.... What teir of ships are you using? I'm in t5-7 ships right now.

Any ship any tier. Although the torps don't have a circle, instead show a "path" where to aim your torps. The aim assist for the guns was removed awhile ago but can be re-activated through a simple mod. And no it is no cheat, hack or software that you must pay for or install. It just a simple mod that is not against any rules.
But this is completely off-topic, if you wish do discuss further PM me or start a off-topic thread. I know its kinda my fault, but we are all humans that can make mistakes. Yes I am looking at you T1 players that thinks that everything you say must be true because you have a little sign that says T1.

[xX PUG Xx]

PholkLorr, on 01 December 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Your "opinion".......

Got a bigger brush for that pot of tar?

I did have a long post to refute some of what you said but..... meh who cares?

[cSand]

0111101, on 01 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Dear Russ Bullock,

I hear you like your Dragon a lot. You've trained it well and soar through the skies, twisting off damage while dishing out 800+. But I've also heard that you're in Tier 3.

I'm happy to hear that you're playing the game, and that you are using your experience to help inform balancing decisions. I am concerned, however, that the gameplay you're experiencing is not representative of the overall balance of the game.

With that in mind I have a proposition: boost your account up to Tier 1 and start playing until you really get a feel for it. How else will you know how to balance the game for all skill levels if your perspective is only from the middle of the pack?

Sincerely,
0111101

sorry brah, Tier 3 fights all tiers

including 1.

And, arguably, is the best representation of all skill levels since you're smack in the middle of everyone


My oh my, how that T1 tag goes to some folks' heads

[0111101]

cSand, on 01 December 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

sorry brah, Tier 3 fights all tiers

including 1.

And, arguably, is the best representation of all skill levels since you're smack in the middle of everyone


My oh my, how that T1 tag goes to some folks' heads

Sorry brah, that means he isn't going against against upper tier players 100% of the time

And, arguably, is not the best representation of any skill level since you're smack in the middle of everyone

My oh my, how the bad players think they know everything about everything. Just look at some of the responses in this thread:

Jun Watarase, on 01 December 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Theres a simple solution to this. The T1 players can not abuse the meta. Back in the old days when battletech was played in local games stores...

Nightmare1, on 01 December 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Hardcore pilots don't have enough to do with their lives and constitute a smaller portion of the gaming population...

Metus regem, on 01 December 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

...The folks that think T1/2 make you elite in MWO have no idea how skill less this game really is, even more so with meta laser/Gauss meta.

There is very little skill to heat management, positioning amd torso twisting, that people actually think that PSR is anything other than an xp bar or win/loss counter. You want a game that actually needs skills, play World of Warships...

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 December 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

Because middle of the pack is how they should balance a game...

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

This is an online game where the rules can be changed to quickly address balance issues

Paul disagrees. Changing numbers in text files is hard work.

The fact remains that there are social consequences for taking certain courses of actions. Some people believe that in an online environment, they shouldn't have to deal with that.

If hundreds of people in an online game are refusing to play with you, then you have only yourself to blame really.

From another perspective, you wouldn't want to play with "scrubs" either way, so it's a win-win situation. I don't understand why people who claim to be the top players in the game would insist on playing with people they refer to as "scrubs" or "noobs" because you don't see the top sports players in the world insisting on playing with "scrubs".

It's dissapointing that some people have a knee jerk reaction that everyone who disagrees with them is bad at the game. It's a really self-limiting point of view.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 01 December 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[cSand]

0111101, on 01 December 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

Sorry brah, that means he isn't going against against upper tier players 100% of the time

And, arguably, is not the best representation of any skill level since you're smack in the middle of everyone

My oh my, how the bad players think they know everything about everything. Just look at some of the responses in this thread:

lol


You're like the guy who buys Air Jordans and starts telling everyone how to play basketball

Edited by cSand, 01 December 2015 - 09:02 PM.

[0111101]

Jun Watarase, on 01 December 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Paul disagrees. Changing numbers in text files is hard work.

The fact remains that there are social consequences for taking certain courses of actions. Some people believe that in an online environment, they shouldn't have to deal with that.

If hundreds of people in an online game are refusing to play with you, then you have only yourself to blame really.

From another perspective, you wouldn't want to play with "scrubs" either way, so it's a win-win situation. I don't understand why people who claim to be the top players in the game would insist on playing with people they refer to as "scrubs" or "noobs" because you don't see the top sports players in the world insisting on playing with "scrubs".

It's dissapointing that some people have a knee jerk reaction that everyone who disagrees with them is bad at the game. It's a really self-limiting point of view.

The disagreement is over the insanity of suggesting that a video game should be balanced for the lowest common denominator. Thanks for the informative diagram by the way, I had no idea how that sort of thing worked.

And it's not like there are any games out there that balance the game at the highest level of play while ensuring that balance is kept all the way down to the bottom, so I guess I'm wrong here. Sorry, guys.