17 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

So the skills "tree" is officially nerfed. Basic skills are about as good as it gets.
This change has been touted as a way to bring a bit of balance to the presumed new players who will be supposedly coming in droves via the steam release. The idea being that by nerfing mobility, etc. of the mastered mechs of more experienced players the new players won't be at such a disadvantage and thus will be less likely to rage quit, etc.

Fine. I'm ok with that, even if I think it is an exercise in futility (the above presumes that it is the capabilities granted by the mastering of mechs via the old skills "tree" which gives experienced players their great advantage over new players, I think there is a bit more to it than that however).

Nevertheless, my beef here is not with the nerf per se, but how it makes the game look and feel to both new and experienced players RIGHT NOW (and presumably in a short time from now when steam release occurs) and how it affects us in at least the short term (assuming no significant change before steam).
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My thesis is that it is necessary to have an active and long term leveling mechanism within any game for it to be successful. Without it, I fear we are doomed. Great game play is simply not enough (and many here argue that we don't have that). In other words: PGI better get a leveling mechanism to replace the skill tree (or at least the appearance of a leveling mechanism) into the game, and they better do it real quick. Otherwise, I fear that they will have bigger problems than trying to attract new players, but rather retaining ANY players.

To wit: It takes an evening to at most a week or two of even occasional play to "basic" a mech. Then what is the new steam player to do? What do they look forward to? Unlocking modules perhaps? I've been playing less than a year on this account and have all mech and IS weapons modules unlocked, so that aint going to cut it even if you think it drives game play (I don't think it does).

As new players driven by steam and not likely their love of Battletech or Mechwarrior (otherwise they would likely be here already), pokemech is not going to be a driver of their continued play (or investment). So, as the game presently stands, what in game feature do you see as keeping them coming back for more? Besides pokemech what will keep the more experienced players coming back for more? CW maybe (no I am not joking)? Any thoughts here? If so, please share or better yet tweet em to Russ because I am really worried about this lack of core game play functionality. It isn't the specific affect of the skill "tree" that I am talking about here but rather the player perception of earning something of value that applies to the gaming experience, and provides a sense of improving capability over both the short and long term that we need (e.g. leveling). Previously I felt this was the skills "tree" now that it is effectively gone, what do we have?

TLDR: Assuming steam attracts new players, what will keep them playing the game if there is no sense of advancement or leveling in the game? What drives you to keep coming back for more other than collecting mechs or lore?

[Paigan]

I think reducing the bonuses was a good thing (I would even have gone so far to require skill to get 100% velocity instead of making it a bonus beyond the 100%).

But I also think the skill tree is WAY too shallow.
It should be an actual skill tree, with strategic decisions, etc. like in other games.
Ideally open-ended with some logarithmic advance in accumulating tiny bonus values.

What brings me back to this game (I have absolutely no collector drive. I consider it to be an instinctive behavior hardly above caveman level) is:

- tinkering around with builds and trying them out
- testing and improving my steering, aiming and tactical improvising skills
- hoping for good team play and funny chats (like IS vs Clans smacktalking in CW. very often hilarious )

Mech tinkering aside, MWO is complexity-wise (Quick Play & CW is all there is) more like a "Browser game" pimped with 3D-graphics. But that doesn't mean it can't be fun to play.
I played the enormous Eve-Online for some years, all up to billions of credits (ISK) and capital ships. And I say it's a horrible, horrible game. Lacking basic reason in game mechanics and requiring to be unemployed or a student. More complexity is not always better.

Edited by Paigan, 02 December 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Percimes]

On the plus side... since the difference between a mastered mech and one still in basics is less drastic, the need to level 3 variants at the same time, or at all, isn't as essential as it was.

[TheCharlatan]

The nerf was needed, and I still find unlocking the master slot usefull (and have fun leveling up various mechs).

A skill bucket overhaul is needed too, but looks like we will have to wait a bit longer for that.

And BTW, i can't belive they haven't removed Pinpoint yet. Just remove it and make the other skills cost more. It's rediculous to have a skill that does NOTHING.

[Bud Crue]

Not so much concerned about the nerf of the skills tree or its affects on gameplay.

What I am concerned about is what we as a community see as the aspects of the game that we think will keep the new more casual players of steam (who are presumably not driven by the mere association with Battletech or Mechwarrior) coming back for more? To me the only leveling in the game was the skills "tree". If that is essentially gone, what aspect of the game provides this "leveling" function (a necessary function for just about any successful game)? I don't see anything at the moment and that worries me.

[Raggedyman]

Bud Crue, on 02 December 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

TLDR: Assuming steam attracts new players, what will keep them playing the game if there is no sense of advancement or leveling in the game?

erm.... really not much if they don't really like the PVPness in and of itself. A skill tree/build divergence to play with or a PVE to explore are needed to keep a chunk of the new players around for long

Bud Crue, on 02 December 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

What drives you to keep coming back for more other than collecting mechs or lore?

Never underestimate the power of nostalgia ;-)
Also I do enjoy the quick play drops as (for me) it's fun PVP (powered by nostalgia)

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

People have been asking for, and offering suggestions about, a new and improved skill tree with actual decision points involved.

[Darian DelFord]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 02 December 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

People have been asking for, and offering suggestions about, a new and improved skill tree with actual decision points involved.

Allow me to correct that statement


People have been asking for, and offering suggestions about, a new and improved skill tree with actual decision points involved.Since Beta 3 years ago

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Darian DelFord, on 02 December 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Allow me to correct that statement


People have been asking for, and offering suggestions about, a new and improved skill tree with actual decision points involved.Since Beta 3 years ago

Since Closed Beta, really, but I assumed that went without saying.

[Darian DelFord]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 02 December 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Since Closed Beta, really, but I assumed that went without saying.

Aye

[Darian DelFord]

Funny this is I actually remember a discussion between the players and the devs... yes they actually discussed on the forums back then

Having a leveling XP system for every mech and every chassis so they could develop their mech the way the player wished to the exclusion of other skill trees. It was over overwhelmingly applauded.

Yeah 3 yeras later.... nada

[TLBFestus]

I seem to recall back then that the devs were saying, "Yes, we plan to implement that, but for now we will be using this simple leveling system until we get the skill tree built".

Stay tuned people, it's probably...wait for it..............wait for it...................... 90 days away.

[Almond Brown]

As MWO is not really an MMO style game. How would you make a Skill Tree that had any depth be such as to not undo what PGI just did? That being, close the GAP between New and Mastered? Having 15 gain-able levels of .5% increments to get a FULL 7.5% Buff seems rather shallow. Do we make players gain and pay for every 1⁰ of Buff for Yaw and Pitch until the max allowed is reached? Same for Engine buffs. Break them down just to have "more" to get?

Would PGI have to include more weapon module increments to add more depth? You can GXP another 1m of range 10 times up to the max. 10% as opposed to the 5 levels in place now?

As noted above, sometimes having more just to say there is more, does not always make things defacto better.

P.S. Killing enemy Mechs is and has always been FUN and will remain being FUN as long as we can kill enemy Mechs.

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 December 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Almond Brown, on 02 December 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

As MWO is not really an MMO style game. How would you make a Skill Tree that had any depth be such as to not undo what PGI just did? That being, close the GAP between New and Mastered? Having 15 gain-able levels of .5% increments to get a FULL 7.5% Buff seems rather shallow. Do we make players gain and pay for every 1⁰ of Buff for Yaw and Pitch until the max allowed is reached? Same for Engine buffs. Break them down just to have "more" to get?

Would PGI have to include more weapon module increments to add more depth? You can GXP another 1m of range 10 times up to the max. 10% as opposed to the 5 levels in place now?

As noted above, sometimes having more just to say there is more, does not always make things defacto better.

P.S. Killing enemy Mechs is and has always been FUN and will remain being FUN as long as we can kill enemy Mechs.

Actually very easy

Keep the same tree that we have not, as a default

Then say have 3 to 4o different paths for each mech of each chassis

Jenner for example

Track 1 Striker build to include Heat Gen Quirks and Range Quirks

Track 2 Scout To include senor type quirks

Track 3 Harrasser track to include buffs to armor and strucutre

Track 4 So forth and so on

There is IMHO a better way to balance mechs. That way mechs within a chassis that need tweaks can easily be done. And it gives me a use for the 6 million XP I have on my Jenner F that is literally wasting away

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

PGI could make it easier for themselves by just having universal Role Trees. Each mech would share universal Basics, like we have now, but then when you unlock the Elite tier you pick a Role to specialize that variant in. They could keep Master as it is now, too.

Roles could include Fire Support (weapon cooldowns, maybe some range increases, and perhaps longer target decay times for lock-on weapons), Scout (boosted speed, multi-targeting, reduced sensor profile [relevant once infotech stuff finally shows up]), Bruiser (reduced critical damage received and other defensive boosts), Striker (a mix of mobility and short-range combat boosts), etc. PGI just needs to come up with 4 skills for each option, that are reasonably balanced against each other.

Throw in a way to re-spec (maybe a small GXP cost to reset your Elite choice?) and you'll have the beginning of a real skill tree.

[Darian DelFord]

And then a little MC to respec, boom Money maker

Show them they can make a buck off it and they may actually do it.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 02 December 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Sandpit]

Quote

[color=#959595]Assuming steam attracts new players, what will keep them playing the game if there is no sense of advancement or leveling in the game? What drives you to keep coming back for more other than collecting mechs or lore? [/color]

playing a video game they find fun maybe?

Don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly that we need more depth in all of these areas, but I don't see hits as being the main point of replayability.

[Thorqemada]

Mechpilots -> new monetization options open and a multitude of leveling options with specializations.