592 replies to this topic

[Husker Dude]

Man, never sell spare engines, you can never tell what builds they might come in handy for in the future.

[Dassh]

Sure, never sell engines (except STD 190...) and the rest. Btw in this arguement we can reach the point that you will have all the necessary weapond and omnipods in your pocket already anyways.

Actually, the arguement started that newbies going for IS because a valid IS Mech is way cheaper than a valid Clan Mech. I just said that this isn't true. You are a newbie so don't count with stuff you already own from your previous 35 Mechs or anywhere. (In this sense I just wrote how much easier it was for me to start with a Clan Mech and change omnipods to experiment instead of buying a new Mech when I realised that Lrm boats aren't for me...).

So to put it simply, I digged up the most popular metamech builds and their price according to smurfy:

DWF-W 19,336,496
KGC-0000 15,792,329

TBR-S 15,946,027
JM6-DD 15,735,745

SCR-PRIME 11,953,382
WVR-6K 11,576,588

ACH-PRIME 7,963,864
FS9-S 10,454,355

As I see in assaults Clan wins, both meavies and mediums are equal and in lights IS is more expensive. Overall I think it's balanced.
(For the record TDR-5SS 10,114,055, BJ-1X 10,406,877, but I don't want to list all possible meta builds for both sides)

[Kuritaclan]

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

So to put it simply, I digged up the most popular metamech builds and their price according to smurfy:

DWF-W 19,336,496
KGC-0000 15,792,329

TBR-S 15,946,027
JM6-DD 15,735,745

SCR-PRIME 11,953,382
WVR-6K 11,576,588

ACH-PRIME 7,963,864
FS9-S 10,454,355

As I see in assaults Clan wins, both meavies and mediums are equal and in lights IS is more expensive. Overall I think it's balanced.
(For the record TDR-5SS 10,114,055, BJ-1X 10,406,877, but I don't want to list all possible meta builds for both sides)

Stock prices do not tell anything!

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I can't agree on these things. Talking about how many Mechs you have to buy to master a chassis and can you switch engines or not are over the point that how much a Mech costs. And I don't have a single IS Mech where I would use the stock engine.

This isn't anymore true. Even if you buy 3 mechs and use 3 new engines you just have 2 others in Inventory you may fit into another mech type where they fit well to your loadout. In any case you buy not as much engines additionally over the flat XL tax coming with clan mechs, since you will use on many builds still STD engines you by time will collect anyway because of swapping those out of others you wanna run with a diffrent.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Not to mention that different builds use different engines. So just to try the Lrm boat, LL boat or Srm+ML brawler build suits him best, a newbie has to buy an XL 310, STD 300 and STD 285 engine. Is this noob-friendly? I don't think so... (not to mention switrching back and forth ferrous)

Actually he don't have to - the only downsize is he can not play his dream build to full potential he wishs his mech to be let's say speedwise. IF he only fit in a 255 instead of a 295. On every other aspect that makes the mech equal not to say give space for some other componentens to run with, if he wish to do so.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

My very first Mech in this game was a Mad Dog and I think it was a very good decision for than few extra million on it. Since I was able to experiment with different builds (I did several Lrm boats, Splatdogs, pure lasre builds...) with just a small cost of new omnipods. It was a much better start than any IS Mech.

I bought the MDD after having TBR, SCR; Dire, and HBR and some other stuff. The only advantage the MDD brings is his flat 60t that would match with 4 Mechs the 240t cap on cw and that it runs as fast as every clan mech in this range of weight. But other than this it is a terrible mech to start with (The vulture looks good but is just flat bad unless a streaker and that has in last days not that much value). Low placed Arms, no high Hardpoints, no Endo but instead FF. The couple extra armor on all parts are not worth the lost 4 tons of weapon space to the lighter scr. And you can actually build every Mech on an scr as you can build with the mdd besid a dual heavy ballistic, what the MDD have not enough free tonnage to sustain without heavy straping of armor. So to speak wayne.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

To be honest by the point when I decided to take the effort (XP and C-Bills) to master a chassis I already had 3 Mechs (And it was a Locust - I still love my / SPL LCT-1E :-) ).

While lights are not the best start you give the perfect example of what i sayed. Locust has on advantage its speed - so you run the biggest Engine in it- what is a XL 190 - its a onetime invest you mostlikly use on every chassis variant till they are mastered. Since clans don't have 20t mech i just use a 25 t MLX for the example you buy 3 variants for mastering what cost you ~6 times 3 Million C-Bill. Buying a 25t IS Mech like Commando costs you 2 Million per chassis = 6 Million + 3times DHS = 4,5Million + round about 1,5 Million for FF and ES Upgrade + 1 XL with additional 4 Million make round about 16 Million without any words towards weapons and or omnipods.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Actually, the arguement started that newbies going for IS because a valid IS Mech is way cheaper than a valid Clan Mech. I just said that this isn't true.

And you still don't prove it, just saying it out of your mind never thought it through.

Over all the price comes near to each other unless you have an inventory to mix around and at least as long as you don't have enough income or overfloating c-bills you can save a couple million c-bill by just swapping out engines.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 December 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Dassh]

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Stock prices do not tell anything!

They aren't stock prices but the final prices of Gman's metamech with every SL, omnipod and everything included.
That is how much you have to pay if you want one and do not have anything "at home" already.

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

But other than this it is a terrible Mech to start with. Low placed Arms, no high Hardpoints, no Endo but instead FF...

Well, in my opinion the MDD is a good Mech and I liked it a lot. I didn't care about the low energy hardpoints, I played MW games before (since MW2) so I could adapt. Btw it has nice missile hardpoints and makes a good mid-range hybrid Lrm boat (like 6 lrm10 + 4 C-SL) or an aswesome splatdog (Srm6s). You just don't have to take the mindless laservomit approach, that's all.

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

While lights are not the best start...

Since playing competitive Q3 before, the Locust suited me from the first time with its speed and manuverability. Everybody is different.

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Actually he don't have to - the only downsize is he can not play his dream build to full potential he wishs his mech to be let's say speedwise. IF he only fit in a 255 instead of a 295. On every other aspect that makes the Mechequal not to say give space for some other componentens to run with.

You're just kidding (or no clue about the subject). In thissense they could just run trial Mechs they are sstill Mechs after all. Differences between 255 and 295 engines and STD and XL engines matters a lot and are very central and important part of any build.
Fronm these word it seems to me you are a Clan-only player with zero IS experience (maybe I'm wrong but it seems...)

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

And you still don't prove it, just saying it out of your mind never thought it through.

I proved it with listing actual prices of popular metamechs from smurfy (not "stock prices").
To be honest, I don't think that your arguements would be valid when you talk about things like mastering Mechs and long term benefits of buying engines an so on.
You just got the cadet bonus, dig through the forums and metamechs and youtube and what and about to buy your very first proper, "competitive" Mech. As you see from the prices, you going for Clan or IS, you will spend roughly the same.
That's all what I said and I think I prooved it with exact numbers.

i don't even get what's so impossible about it, seriously.

[Kuritaclan]

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

They aren't stock prices but the final prices of Gman's metamech with every SL, omnipod and everything included.
That is how much you have to pay if you want one and do not have anything "at home" already.

...

I proved it with listing actual prices of popular metamechs from smurfy (not "stock prices").
To be honest, I don't think that your arguements would be valid when you talk about things like mastering Mechs and long term benefits of buying engines an so on.

If you would have listed same tonnages as you did for 100t or 55t it does present something, but as it stands it do not prove your point because it does not include engine swapping. Beside that some tonnages are just not comparable since IS does not have a value 75t comparable to a TBR for ecample.

Your argument of diffrence between assault balancing lights in prices do not make it, when you actually start putting in the engine swap argument. You don't let it count so why should i stop with that surface scratching of some flavor builds.

On this point you could argue if the meta somewhat shifts and quirks get diced newly a mech switch from ac10s to ac5s a new engine needs to make a new best in place setup, then you have to purchase a third engine then the initial you swapped out. So IS is over time is so much more expensive. Hummm. And even it is made up it only proves that customizability can be a sinkhole to c-bills. And since IS is somewhat more customizable they are more expensive. But it do not be a reply to a fair start of setting up first mech to master it and move on from that with what you allready have.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Well, in my opinion the MDD is a good Mech and I liked it a lot. I didn't care about the low energy hardpoints, I played MW games before (since MW2) so I could adapt. Btw it has nice missile hardpoints and makes a good mid-range hybrid Lrm boat (like 6 lrm10 + 4 C-SL) or an aswesome splatdog (Srm6s). You just don't have to take the mindless laservomit approach, that's all.

Since playing competitive Q3 before, the Locust suited me from the first time with its speed and manuverability. Everybody is different.

Those are own likes in the end. So i won't argue against. But since it is your flavor, it does not translate to a beginner, who just makes steps into the game.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

You're just kidding (or no clue about the subject). In thissense they could just run trial Mechs they are sstill Mechs after all. Differences between 255 and 295 engines and STD and XL engines matters a lot and are very central and important part of any build.
Fronm these word it seems to me you are a Clan-only player with zero IS experience (maybe I'm wrong but it seems...)

Hmm, well actually i forgot the HS-Slot. Anyway what you think about me is flat useless for the discussion. And it more likely looks like you don't have arguments, so you bash me on a personal level. Maybee you look up membership time before you start with that.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

You just got the cadet bonus, dig through the forums and metamechs and youtube and what and about to buy your very first proper, "competitive" Mech. As you see from the prices, you going for Clan or IS, you will spend roughly the same.
That's all what I said and I think I prooved it with exact numbers.

i don't even get what's so impossible about it, seriously.

I do not get what you are talking about on the end.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 December 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[Grim 13]

Is there any chance we'll get detailed event stats like we did for the last Battle of Tukkayid?

Thank you!

[Dassh]

Kuritaclan, on 09 December 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

It starts to be a pointless debate. I do have agruements and I provided them clearly. The debate was all about that is getting your first playable Mech cheaper or not on this side or the other. I said that starting from zero they are roughly equal, nothing else. I proved my point with Gman's Mechs' prices what are including engine swaps, omnipod swaps, upgrading/degrading to/from edno or ferrous and all weapons, HS and everything. These are all the things what you have to pay for, inclusing the stock Mechs of course.

About weight: I've cited one Clan and one IS for every weight category (and gave prices for two popular IS what are a bit cheaper than their Clan counterparts). Taking the arguement to a ton vs. ton level wouldn't help much since - just to stay with your example - a 75t TBR has the same price as a 65t Jager, so what?

I haven't talked about how much will it cost our newbie to try different builds on his new Mech to find what suits him best (where Clans have a clear advantage due to being able to just switch omnipods and experiment with all possible layout without even buying a second one) or how much will it cost to master that chassis (where with a bit of luck IS has a nice advantage with swapping engines between Mechs - I say "with a bit of luck" since some variants are so different that you have to get new engine or play with some badly handicapped setup (or just level it from GXP and get over it, what a newbie surely won't do). I haven't even talked about the situation when you are buying your 25th Mech and your Mechlab is full of different engines. omnipods and every kind of weapons already.

All I said that from zero to the very first "competitive" (read: able to provide reasonable performance) Mech how much you have to pay. And it seems choosing Clan or IS won't help you with this.
Sure, I can argee with - and I never argued - that stock price of IS Mechs are misleading many newbies since they believe that paying 5-6 mil. for them is better than paying 10-11 for the Clan one and they'll realise just after that for the Mech what they waited for they have to pay like 5-6 mil more easily (not to mention mastering it later). What I said that this is a trap, you won't get a proper IS Mech cheaper for the first time.

I do apologise if you took it as some bashing. I haven't and won't dig into your profile or anything because it won't make your arguements stand anyways (it has to be done by you). Even if you are here since closed beta or alpha, maybe you are a 100% Clan player, who knows.
But to be honest, when you said that 255 or 295 engine isn't some big deal, my eyebrows just jumped up right away. Even the difference between 325 and 335 worth enough for me to just buy that engine without hesitation if I don't have it laying around. I would never try to just patch the gap with some unecessary MLs or what. If our newbie would do it he would just have a **** Mech, not better than any trial one - or even worse.
But it wasn't against you, just seemed you haven't tweaked too much IS Mech - and again, I could be wrong and then I just can't agree less with the importance of engine power.


So I'm not into the who got a bigger ... competition or who has better players and what is easy mode or OP or anything. All I said that the overall price of a brand new IS or Clan Mech is roughly the same. And I proved it with exact numbers and variants with meta builds. That's why I don't get all the other arguement s about mastering chassis or anything...


(And about personal preferences: You are right of course. As I said earlier everybody is different with different skills and talents and likes. But I can agree on that neither a Locust nor a Mad Dog are good starting Mechs for people who never met anything like this before. But both are quite good Mechs in the right hands imho.
Actually for newbies asking about what Mech to buy for the very first time to get rid of the frustration of getting beaten badly I always advice a Thunderbolt or Stormcrow, never a dual gauss Jager or Cheetah.)

Edited by Dassh, 09 December 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Well i agree to many points of yours. Like the trap of low initial cost of IS Mechs, which have hidden costs.

But to make a fair point. Your JM vs TBR argumentation does not add up, not only by the problem of tonnage gap. But just for the sake of the argument. I guess we both would agree that we would recommend a new player a mech with value or said by features: Low costs, while having different roles to fulfill and don't be a walking grave (mechs that are hard to play and even harder to master). Or in other words has the best ROI for 3 builts/chassis on it. Since you defined the matter: "The debate was all about that is getting your first playable Mech cheaper or not on this side or the other."

Comparing XL IS Mechs with clan mechs (done with JM to TBR - comparing two same weightclass mechs with nearly same loadouts favors IS Mechs 2xAC20 AC JM6-DD 12,5M C-Bill vs. 2xUAC20 EBJ 14,5M C-Bill for for example) do not prove your argument. Adding up to this. Recommending something that takes a XL buy default like a JM6-DD with 3x5UAC i guess build to be a viable mech slams the new player argument into the ground. It hurts the argument to be "cheap". Everything you need to put in an XL to make it viable is therefore by definition not cheap. Something like you said Thunderbolt which has proven to be good without expensiv XLs to put into and make them worth flashing up.

Dassh, on 09 December 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

But to be honest, when you said that 255 or 295 engine isn't some big deal, my eyebrows just jumped up right away. Even the difference between 325 and 335 worth enough for me to just buy that engine without hesitation if I don't have it laying around. I would never try to just patch the gap with some unecessary MLs or what. If our newbie would do it he would just have a **** Mech, not better than any trial one - or even worse.
But it wasn't against you, just seemed you haven't tweaked too much IS Mech - and again, I could be wrong and then I just can't agree less with the importance of engine power.

This argument evolve about budget your ressources. Sure to make a mech top notch you aim for a certain firepower -> fit the engine correct the firepower if your mobility don't feels right - and maybe it is a meta mech. And if not it at least fit your playstyle to get peoples cry in their cockpits. xD

But if you don't have the c-bills to throw around it comes down to what i said. Maybe the range was a bit wide between 255 or 295. For every 25 ratings you get the HS Slot after 250 and only a couple more kph, what could make a difference in 1 out of 1000 games and in the 999 games you just do as you allways do.

And we may have splitted minds about this issue, because you seem to me to be a dedicated light pilot, where i'm more into heavy and assaults. And an engine upgrade on a 75t mech from 300 to 310 for exampe gives you after speedtweak 2.3 kph. With 72kph you pass 19,44m per second. To make a gap of 17,5m between a 69,7kph mech and a 72kph mech of ~17.6m they have both to run ~28 seconds to direction. This little math example does not say there is no advantage fitting with the bigger engine, but it tells that you have to be in the right spot anyway. Running to it to make the speed advantage "count" takes to long - by this time of 30 seconds well the situation has changed anyway. For a light speed is live and the 180 rated engine gives a 156.7 kph max speed to a locust while a 10pts higher rated engine set it to 165.4kph - what is nearly four times the value (2.3 vs 8.7) you have out of the 10 pts higher engine rating on this 20t mech compared to a 75t mech. This at least explain to me why we both have diffrent thoughts about that matter.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 December 2015 - 09:52 PM.

[Veev]

Just want to post something here about the event based on stats...
"
Total Mechs destroyed: 961,974
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 481,187
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 480,787

Total Damage Done: 358,768,582
Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 179,654,088
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 179,114,494"

Know what these two numbers tell me? That the clans had better strategy and that is why they won. IS did more damage and destroyed more mechs. They lost still. Know why that is? Because they were strategically lacking. More meta cheese wont fix that.
They were treating each match like a skirmish instead of an objective based event.

These numbers are based on the first one. Apparently someone troll grabbed the old numbers and posted them out there. But they are still there painting a picture of balance.

Edited by Veev, 10 December 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Veev, on 10 December 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

...
These numbers are based on the first one. Apparently someone troll grabbed the old numbers and posted them out there. But they are still there painting a picture of balance.

Those are the stat for Tukayyid I not II. See (http://mwomercs.com/...yid-statistics/) So it does tell nothing about the second event.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 10 December 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Veev]

Kuritaclan, on 10 December 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Those are the stat for Tukayyid I not II. See (http://mwomercs.com/...yid-statistics/) So it does tell nothing about the second event.

They still painted a picture of balance. And I love the fact that someone has to restate something you already stated because they can not see the picture clearly.

I am curious as to why PGI has not posted the stats yet for the Tuk2 event. Maybe it paints an even worse picture than Tuk 1. AKA I can see IS mechs having 30% more damage and kills than the clans but still losing the battle.

[Kuritaclan]

Well they posted "first" stats on it on May second, when the event happened from APRIL 24th to THURSDAY APRIL 30th Just give ME some more time. It is only 4 days behind us. The main issue is that they post them. When, we'll have some patience.

Edit. And by the way if you wanna request stats - use this thread and push it: http://mwomercs.com/...ease-the-stats/

I don't see your name in it Veev.

On the question towards balance. Check out some dozens pages before. I think I had posted enough in this thread way back then.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 10 December 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[stjobe]

Stats are up now: http://mwomercs.com/...id-stats-part-1

Participation went down from 17k players in Tukayyid 1 to 14k in Tukayyid 2.