16 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

The pulse lasers are vastly superior in almost every way and the range difference is neglible. The most important points are the much lower burn time and the increased heat efficiency, given that IS mechs cannot spam DHS.

This is assuming we are using a variant that does not have insane medium laser quirks (BLR-1G, I'm looking at you, medium lasers that are almost the same range as clan med pulse but have lower burn times, better heat efficiency and half the weight).

I was thinking of trying a AC10 + 3 LL CTF-1X build....then i realised that a 3 LPL + UAC 5 build actually had a higher alpha, higher DPS and was almost as cool.

The only times i can see where i would use LLs is due to quirks or if im running a medium that cant do 3x LPL but can do 3x LL.

4x LL vs 3x LPL would be a fairer comparison but ghost heat prevents that...

[Rogue Jedi]

standard lasers are lighter ^{(half weight for smalls or mediums or 2 tonnes in the case of the Large)}, and have longer range, while I do consider Pulse Lasers better than standard or ER I would much rather take 4 mediums than 2 med pulse if I am trying to squeeze in some backup weapons, and I only use Small Pulse on Mechs setup to move faster than 100 due to the short range..

standard lasers definitely still have there place, but if you are after lasers for your primary armament then unless you are planning on firing much past 400m ^{(in which case you want the ER Large)} Pulse Lasers are generally better.

[Jun Watarase]

The thing is with how awesome LPLs are, it makes very little sense not to boat them whenever possible.

A 3x LPL + UAC 5 setup is superior to a 5x MPL/AC10 setup and has more range to boot.

Unless you are trying to use 3x UAC 5 or something, and you want to squeeze in as many lasers as possible...

[jss78]

I don't use pulse lasers too often, while I like them. This is mainly because of the situations where I use lasers in general:

- As secondary armament for AC/Gauss/LRM builds. Here the double tonnage of an MPL vs. ML is a real problem. Plus, the ML has a better range overlap with your main weapon. Often I feel something like 3-4 ML is the ideal secondary armament.

- No pulse laser really competes with the ERLL, as they don't even reach the ranges where you typically plan to use your ERLL's.

I can see how especially for highly mobile laser boats (which are less hurt by the shorter range, as they can easier close in), pulse lasers are more desirable

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Heat issues also come into consideration when dealing with standard vs pulse.

Pulse:
+ Fires faster.
+ Shorter burn time (also factors into refire rate; cooldown only starts at the end of the burn cycle)
+ Faster refire rate (see above)
+ Does not generate as much attention (blinking on and off makes it psychologically less threatening, and is harder to trace)
+/- Does damage in discrete packets (each 'tick' on target does bigger damage, fewer 'ticks' per burn)
- Heats up MUCH faster (same heat, but much higher refire rate)
- Lower range and more severe drop-off after optimal range
- Heavy (LPL is 2 tons more than LL (40% heavier), MPL is 1 ton more than ML (100% heavier), SPL is 0.5 tons more than SL (100% heavier)


Standard lasers:
+ Longer range
+ Better damage-over-distance profile (less drop-off)
+ Light
+ Heats up more slowly (due to lower RoF)
- Longer burn times (negligible for IS non-ERLL, significant for all Clan non-pulse lasers)
- Highly visible and easily tracked

That's pretty much the summary of normal vs pulse. Discrete damage packets on pulses makes it much easier to use in brawling because you don't need to track them fully to do significant damage (e.g. 10 pulses of 1.1 damage per pulse on a LPL, vs 100 pulses of 0.09 damage on a LL; when you're sweeping someone's legs, it's much more likely for you to deal significant damage by landing a few of the pulses on a LPL). You also deal much higher burst using pulses due to higher base damage combined with increased RoF, but conversely also heats up faster so you have less staying power.

Standard lasers give you extra tonnage to work with. In some cases, this means the difference between loading another standard laser of the same size; e.g. loading a HBK-4P with 8 ML instead of 4 MPL when you have 8 tons free, or loading a RVN-4X with 2 LL, 4 JJs and 2 DHS instead of 2 LPL. This can offer some tactical flexibility with JJs or extra cooling if you really need it.

Questions to ask yourself when deciding:
0) (lol, it has to be done) Are you QUIRKED?? If yes, then rock whatever you are quirked for, freeborn scum!
1) Are you going to brawl? If yes, then Pulse.
2) Are you running hot? If yes, then Standard.
3) Are you hunting fast-moving objects with faster-moving limbs? If yes, then Pulse.
4) Do you need extra tonnage for equipment? If yes, then Standard.
5) Do you have excess hardpoints, too much cooling, but not enough tonnage? If yes, then Standard.
6) Do you intend to poptart lasers (it can be done on mechs with massive -% duration quirks)? If yes, then Pulse.

Edited by ArcturusWolf, 08 December 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Well i tried to make a AC20 or AC10 with lasers CTF-1X build but every build just failed compared to boating 3x LPL (which gave me more range, damage and heat efficiency)....

[Wildstreak]

Have not bought Phracts yet but planned builds I have, I see no reason to use the Ballistic slot on the 1X, it has the most Energy quirks of any Phract even if the values make them average, Ballistic quirks look nice but really only help if you are running a brawler build that would be similar to what I see people using on the 0XP. Why make a copy of another build except to run in CW? Make it interesting, boat Energy.

[Bud Crue]

Jun Watarase, on 09 December 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Well i tried to make a AC20 or AC10 with lasers CTF-1X build but every build just failed compared to boating 3x LPL (which gave me more range, damage and heat efficiency)....

Agreed not just for CTFs but for many mechs I have noticed that often the build I come up with as having the best compromise of alpha, dps, range, heat, etc. is the 3LPL build.

I started using it in the obvious T-bolt SE (due to the quirks), but as I acquired more mechs, noticed the 3LPL is my default for when I am not creating a specialized CW build. I have or had a 3LPL build in: a BJ-Arrow, a Crab, a Sparky, the aforementioned T-Bolt, two CTFs (D and one of my 0XPs) a Grasshopper-J and a Zeus. Some of these have been refitted with different load-outs now, but I am always hard pressed to find a better set up than the 3LPLs that I started with. At the very least it is a pretty good default build for an awful lot of mechs that will allow you to master the mech fairly quickly...and then you can decide to specialize it at that point.

Other than the T-bolt and the 0XP (need the ecm) if I can't come up with a better/specialized build for a mech than 3LPLs, I sell it as I know I will never play it over those builds.

[Randall Flagg]

3 x ER LL all day.

[habu86]

It's mostly a play style choice. Arcturus gives a good rundown of the pros and cons of Standard vs. Pulse, and my experience has been that it often comes down to how you play the mech.

For IS mechs, I prefer LPL for in-your face brawlers, especially if they are energy hard-point constrained and I'm trying to get the biggest bang for the buck (within allowable tonnage limits), and Standard for skirmishers (hit-and-run tactics and 300-600 meter ranges) and long-range platforms.

For Clan mechs I've found that, due to burn times, I'm more successful with using MPL if i can only fit four or less and standard if I can fit 5 ML or more. Haven't quite been able to make cSPL work as well as they used to post-rebalance, but I don't have any clan lights either.

I've not found ghost heat to be a huge issue as long as you stagger your shots a bit (you only need .5 seconds to avoid triggering it) and have had several instances in IS mechs where switching from LPL to LL took reasonably successful builds to the next level, with the two best examples that come to mind being my RVN-4X and MAD-5D. I ran double LPL on the -4X for nearly instantaneous burn times, but found the build just a bit too hot to have the necessary staying power; switching to 2x LL allowed me to shoehorn additional heat sinks and even a small SRM launcher or MGs if I wanted to mix it up. I ran the MAD-5D with 3x LPL, 2x ML, and an XL 350, and it did great once it closed the range, but, even with modules, I found the range lacking, leaving me dependent on my team providing sufficient covering fire for me to be able to advance and close the range on some of the more open maps; switching to 5x LL essentially solved that problem and really took the mech to the next level performance-wise.

FWIW, I think it's worth experimenting a bit, you never know when you find an unexpected winner.

[cabusha2]

I love to stack Standard Meds with LPLs on my IS mechs. 2xlpl 4xml ac20 works great on boar's Head. 2xlpl 2xml ac20 on RS. 2xlpl 5xml on BH2, etc. If you're looking for medium ranges, these combos kick ***.

[Shalune]

This is a gross over-simplification, but here's a good rule of thumb for IS lasers:

Pulse = primary weapon/group
Normal = backup/filler weapon/group

Normal lasers are great, particularly ML because while they lack a specialization they are so efficient for their weight/heat/size almost nothing else compares. So they make the perfect filler. Need a weapon to pair with SRMs or LRMs that won't wreck your heat? Normal lasers. Want backups to your PPC/gauss sniper but not much weight left? Normal lasers. Got nothing but 6-8 energy hardpoints and not much weight? Normal lasers.

[Jun Watarase]

Okay, so can anyone come up with a build where it is better to use normal lasers over pulse for heavies and assaults, where space becomes more of a limiting factor?

I couldnt do it with a CTF-1X at least. I kept running the numbers but 3x LPL basically outbeat every normal laser combination. It was just too good compared to stuff flike 3x LL.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Jun Watarase, on 13 December 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Okay, so can anyone come up with a build where it is better to use normal lasers over pulse for heavies and assaults, where space becomes more of a limiting factor?

I couldnt do it with a CTF-1X at least. I kept running the numbers but 3x LPL basically outbeat every normal laser combination. It was just too good compared to stuff flike 3x LL.

Generally speaking, I think only the 6LL stalker even comes close to it - and even that is limited by tonnage still. And that's only better because the LPLs are so heavy that you actually end up with 2 fewer LPL than LL. Smaller long-range burst from the LPL, but better heat efficiency on the LPL because you're not firing as many at a time. STK-4N 6LL
STK-4N 4LPL

The difference, I guess, comes from 'soft stats' like range. With an assault mech or a heavy mech being so slow to traverse and pitch to the correct aim point, range is more important because this means you can cover more ground (at optimal ranges) with the least amount of rotation/pitch.

Edited by ArcturusWolf, 13 December 2015 - 08:39 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Yea, but the 4N has LL specific quirks IIRC.

[Lily from animove]

Jun Watarase, on 08 December 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

The pulse lasers are vastly superior in almost every way and the range difference is neglible. The most important points are the much lower burn time and the increased heat efficiency, given that IS mechs cannot spam DHS.

This is assuming we are using a variant that does not have insane medium laser quirks (BLR-1G, I'm looking at you, medium lasers that are almost the same range as clan med pulse but have lower burn times, better heat efficiency and half the weight).

I was thinking of trying a AC10 + 3 LL CTF-1X build....then i realised that a 3 LPL + UAC 5 build actually had a higher alpha, higher DPS and was almost as cool.

The only times i can see where i would use LLs is due to quirks or if im running a medium that cant do 3x LPL but can do 3x LL.

4x LL vs 3x LPL would be a fairer comparison but ghost heat prevents that...

well too much laser to properly balance them, ERLL, LL, LPL, this is all too much the same niche they compete in each other.
Same then for the Pulses and normal ones.

But isn't it strange not so long ago hardly anyone used Medium pulses, because the additional tonnage wasn't worth the lower beam duration. PGI changed quite some stuff now people prefer pulses over anything else (especially on IS when not quirked)

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Shalune]

Jun Watarase, on 13 December 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Okay, so can anyone come up with a build where it is better to use normal lasers over pulse for heavies and assaults, where space becomes more of a limiting factor?

I couldnt do it with a CTF-1X at least. I kept running the numbers but 3x LPL basically outbeat every normal laser combination. It was just too good compared to stuff flike 3x LL.

Depends what you mean about that line about space. But yes normals see a lot of play in heavies and assaults too. Taken directly from metamechs.com , all listed as T1*:

http://metamechs.com...-lists/is-list/
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a067f95f5efbe3
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29d7704daabf489

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...666e3cb0f27782d
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0562e45aedab8d6
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c047ff0f8d4cfbd
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2764e4dd2edeb4d

*No I do not take this site to be some end all be all, but the people that run it know the current game balance better than I do. And even just taking a survey of comp play is going to give you a good idea of what weapons are viable.