215 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

Tanar, on 03 December 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

remember the good 'ol days when blackjacks were DOA? how times have changed

No. They never were. BJ1 were always good. Good loadout possibility, awesome weapon position, awesome mobility, great slim figure(USE IT!). BJ1 were always nice.

I dunno what line of thinking decided that the 1X needed better manoeuvrability buff than the others though.

Tanar, on 03 December 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

sure they were- I remember thread after thread before they came out about how bad they were going to be and no one would use them.

Ok then, i thought you meant they were doa because we saw so few on the field. There never was a lot of bj1 even when they were on trials and when i got mine, way before quirks and clan, i was surprised at how good they could be.

Edited by DAYLEET, 03 December 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Deathlike]

Tanar, on 03 December 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

sure they were- I remember thread after thread before they came out about how bad they were going to be and no one would use them. then people started noticing you could put an ac20 I them and the age of the BJ-1 began. the DC and 1X were slow and no JJs so no one would ever use them. only the BJ-1 was deemed "ok" at the time.

edit- i'd been using them since the day they came out so i'm on team blackjack but there was a lot of uninterest in it when it first showed up

Many people overrate/underrate stuff at first glance.. and not wait for things to settle in (it is the current nature of society - at least on the vocal side). I loved the mech from Day 1... with all its warts. While it was better or worse depending on the nature of the meta, it was very usable. People don't experiment enough and make rash judgments very often. I don't listen to the noise unless a legit reason is given (and poor skill is not a good reason).

[El Bandito]

BRB, making a quad BJ-1X deck. Oh, wait, that is a terribly bad idea.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

It isn't, but it makes decisions easier.

The Thunderwub-5SS was the primary IS mech taken under every major CW event. Is it a random coincidence?

I don't think it was ever "OP", but the thing was what would have been the proper alternative for the IS based on the state of balance?

It's something that isn't as simple at first look.

Workarounds like the Thud 5SS were caused BY tonnage limits, because they make you have to squeeze the most meta-ness out of the specific amount of weight you're capped at.

Remember things like SCR/ACH mobs when the premade queue first got its weight limits based on group size? That should kinda explain it all...

[jper4]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Many people overrate/underrate stuff at first glance.. and not wait for things to settle in (it is the current nature of society - at least on the vocal side). I loved the mech from Day 1... with all its warts. While it was better or worse depending on the nature of the meta, it was very usable. People don't experiment enough and make rash judgments very often. I don't listen to the noise unless a legit reason is given (and poor skill is not a good reason).

I never had any trouble with them myself. while it's dropped a bit in my favorites list over time only griffin, kintaros and hunchies I like better among the mediums. I mastered all the blackjacks a long time ago.

[pwnface]

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Russ is already considering a small nerf to the BJ-1X, so calm down.

Stuff like this should never even make it to the live servers.

Why did this even come up on their drawing boards? Because they have no idea how their own game works.

We have a Tier 5 scrub in charge of gameplay balance.

[sycocys]

Running around with impunity with red internals - sounds awfully familiar to people running a lighter Cheetah. =P

I don't really disagree for the most part though, it was a pretty balls out mech before the change - but this is the problem with feeding your balancing spreadsheet with data and balancing on stock loadouts, because if I recall the stock loadout of the 1X sucks pretty hard.

[pwnface]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Workarounds like the Thud 5SS were caused BY tonnage limits, because they make you have to squeeze the most meta-ness out of the specific amount of weight you're capped at.

Remember things like SCR/ACH mobs when the premade queue first got its weight limits based on group size? That should kinda explain it all...

The TDR-5SS was THE best IS mech ton for ton. A STK-4N outperforms it at 20 tons more, but the TDR-5SS was the best IS mech under 80tons regardless of tonnage. So yes, tonnage limits made them more popular because people couldn't run a 48 STK-4N CW drop deck.

[KHETTI]

i'm pretty fond of the Bj-1x, and well, lets say it needs toned down just a tad.

[El Bandito]

The BJ-1X is gonna be nerfed anyway, why not feed the Clanners their own medicine meanwhile? I remember how they were lying through their arses that Clan mechs were not OP, only Clan pilots are better, during Wave One. Well, here, taste the same ****, even for the briefest of time.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Aresye]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

<3 BJs

We're talking about the mech, right?

I mean don't get me wrong, I love this mech. I also love the new PPC poptart version that's the BJ-3. Last night Gas Guzzler and myself were trading midair PPC shots at each other on Frozen City, so that was fun. It's a very fun mech to play.

The thing is, it can remain fun (assuming they can balance it right and there's a lot of assumption needed there). Being nerfed doesn't mean it has to become non-fun, or non-effective to run. It's just that, we're talking about a 45t here. There needs to be at least "some" form of cautious play in running a 45t.

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

BRB, making a quad BJ-1X deck. Oh, wait, that is a terribly bad idea.

Perhaps a terrible idea for Boreal Vault since it lacks the extreme ranges often fought on that map, but on any other CW map I fail to see why a 4x BJ-1X deck would be anything short of effective.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 03 December 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[FupDup]

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

The TDR-5SS was THE best IS mech ton for ton. A STK-4N outperforms it at 20 tons more, but the TDR-5SS was the best IS mech under 80tons regardless of tonnage. So yes, tonnage limits made them more popular because people couldn't run a 48 STK-4N CW drop deck.

That feeds into my point: TL's don't really bring much balance.

[pwnface]

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

BRB, making a quad BJ-1X deck. Oh, wait, that is a terribly bad idea.

It's actually not a bad idea. I'm willing to bet that I could break 4k rather easily running 4x BJ1-X in solo CW, considering I'm averaging 1200-1400 with just 1.

[El Bandito]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Perhaps a terrible idea for Boreal Vault since it lacks the extreme ranges often fought on that map, but on any other CW map I fail to see why a 4x BJ-1X deck would be anything short of effective.

Cause my STK-4N or BLR-1G can deal twice the damage of a BJ-1X in any CW maps on average, from twice the range.

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's actually not a bad idea. I'm willing to bet that I could break 4k rather easily running 4x BJ1-X in solo CW, considering I'm averaging 1200-1400 with just 1.

You do that and show me the screenshots. I will make my judgement then.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 December 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Workarounds like the Thud 5SS were caused BY tonnage limits, because they make you have to squeeze the most meta-ness out of the specific amount of weight you're capped at.

Remember things like SCR/ACH mobs when the premade queue first got its weight limits based on group size? That should kinda explain it all...

Let's for the sake of argument remote tonnage limits. If you were to pick an IS Heavy at that time, what would it have been?

Those mobs though are a function though of things people wanted to get out of their systems (you couldn't run them in the first place because of 3/3/3/3). It still says more about poor interchassis balance than anything else. Before the BJ "requirkening", would you have picked a Vindicator or Shadowcat over that? Luckily the Ice Ferret wasn't a total disaster (it's still bad, but not stupid bad once the 5th Energy hardpoint was accessible).

[pwnface]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

That feeds into my point: TL's don't really bring much balance.

The whole game is based on tonnage limit or at the very least weight class restrictions. There is a major issue when a mech can easily and consistently out-perform almost every mech 20-30 tons heavier than it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

We're talking about the mech, right?

I mean don't get me wrong, I love this mech. I also love the new PPC poptart version that's the BJ-3. Last night Gas Guzzler and myself were trading midair PPC shots at each other on Frozen City, so that was fun. It's a very fun mech to play.

The thing is, it can remain fun (assuming they can balance it right and there's a lot of assumption needed there). Being nerfed doesn't mean it has to become non-fun, or non-effective to run. It's just that, we're talking about a 45t here. There needs to be at least "some" form of cautious play in running a 45t.

I mean, we can leave the BJ-3 where it is can't we? Its nice seeing more PPCs again.

Being a reasonable person, I will agree that the 1X does need something dialed back a bit.

[Davegt27]

Cool I was getting worried about MWO there hasent been anyone on complaining about getting there Butts kicked about the
Latest over powered Much

This is my pre patch BJ-1X
"We all know its feast or famine in MWO, we hate to talk about the famine but love the feast

Haven’t even had the BJ a week

"

The forum is kind of boring
Nice to here there is still some butt kicking going on
:-)

[Deathlike]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

We're talking about the mech, right?

I'm here for the inside joke.

Quote

I mean don't get me wrong, I love this mech. I also love the new PPC poptart version that's the BJ-3. Last night Gas Guzzler and myself were trading midair PPC shots at each other on Frozen City, so that was fun. It's a very fun mech to play.

The thing is, it can remain fun (assuming they can balance it right and there's a lot of assumption needed there). Being nerfed doesn't mean it has to become non-fun, or non-effective to run. It's just that, we're talking about a 45t here. There needs to be at least "some" form of cautious play in running a 45t.

I have nothing against readjusting the quirks. My point was specifically that the man most responsible for said quirks ISN'T being held responsible for stuff that he's SUPPOSED to be on top of. That's what needs the most attention regardless of what the outcome is here (and I wouldn't be surprised at an overnerf, because that's his thing).

[Drunk Canuck]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

They were never DOA.

Prior to quirks they were quite underwhelming. Laser boats that over heated and couldn't even use the hardpoint effectively. JagerMech style torso in a smaller form factor, they were easy to kill and couldn't run XLs very well, meaning they were hot AND slow.

The 1X might have had a slight over buff from the previous quirks, but its strength might be noticed more due to the major Clan nerfs across the board. Compared to a Shadowcat, the Blackjack is a much better medium Mech.