32 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Referenced thread:
https://www.reddit.c...caped_the_nerf/

I guess today is a good day to discuss a particular balance issue that has gone unchecked (and apparently I totally overlooked).... the state of long range lasers.

I totally missed how the Clan LPL didn't get touched AT ALL. If you gave it it's range nerf that all other Clan Lasers got (minus the CERLL), it would have 960m max range... which is still pretty good. The problem is that the Clan Large Pulse does infringe a lot on what the CERLL does, and then some (though for greater requirements).

The problem with that is that it makes two weapons look bad for the most part... the IS ERLL and Clan ERLL.

To be fair, the IS ERLL will never be a DPS machine. It just won't. However.. for "technically" (if you could do mixtech, but that's not the point) 1 ton more over the IS LL (or 2 tons+1crit vs the CERLL), you get more concentrated damage at a very decent range. It's great for what it does, but it totally makes alternative options suck.

To fix this, the duration of BOTH IS ERLL AND Clan ERLL needs a .1 duration reduction (at least). I'm unsure if it needs other tweaks, but that's where it needs to begin.

The CERLL suffers from this the greatest, as a longer beam duration has categorize this is a pure sniping weapon... and it's not really that great at it (try using this weapon vs Lights... you'll hate yourself for doing it). It hasn't seen too much use elsewhere (not that it doesn't function or anything like that), and honestly the Clan LPL has been too much of the star since the beginning. Obviously there could be other changes, but remember that a weapon that can fit on the head of a mech (IS's best option is the ML or MPL) can potentially be too much of a dealbreaker balance-wise... but it shouldn't be just relegated to super-super niche which is what it is currently.

TL;DR

Apply the same max range nerf to the Clan LPL like the rest of the Clan lasers (leave the CERLL alone on this front) and reduce the duration of both IS ERLL and CERLL by .1 sec to make them viable choices.

I'm very aware of quirks that help out the IS/Clan laser woes, but let's be honest... like PPCs... any weapon that requires quirks for it to function "reasonably" suggests that the weapon actually needs to be adjusted in the first place.

Now... only if we could stop making LBX stay useless...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Now... only if we could stop making LBX stay useless...

1.5 damage per pellet. Bam. Done.

[Deathlike]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 03 December 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

1.5 damage per pellet. Bam. Done.

That's not happening on our balance overlord's watch... (at this point).

I think revamping the spread mechanism should be on the table... as I believe that's the prime source of contention (besides the random terribadness is on RNGesus on crit damage to internals). That would need its own thread though...

[Lyoto Machida]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

That's not happening on our balance overlord's watch... (at this point).

I think revamping the spread mechanism should be on the table... as I believe that's the prime source of contention (besides the random terribadness is on RNGesus on crit damage to internals). That would need its own thread though...

Tighten the spread so you can hit the same component on the smallest light mech at optimum LB range?

[Deathlike]

Lyoto Machida, on 03 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Tighten the spread so you can hit the same component on the smallest light mech at optimum LB range?

Well, tightening the spread doesn't strictly fix its existing mediocrity at range, based on the current mechanics.

[Lostdragon]

Lyoto Machida, on 03 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Tighten the spread so you can hit the same component on the smallest light mech at optimum LB range?

Then they would fire projectiles the size of standard ACs...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

If you want to do a mechanical fix, make them act like cERPPCs. 5 damage on impact, 2.5 to each side. cLBII-ACs would do 1 and 0.5, cLBV-ACs would do 2.5 and 1.25, and cLBXX-ACs would do 10 and 5.

Now, I'm not actually advocating this, given that the 1.5 damage/pellet is a far better way to handle them, but it'd be a vast improvement over their current implementation.

[Sandpit]

I want to discuss this!

a .1 decrease in duration would be nice, but I'd rather see clan pulse tech ranges be on par with IS regular lasers and below er lasers in terms of range. That would keep them in a better spot, but not the obscene ranges we see. PGI has consistently stated they wanted to reduce effective combat ranges but they've never addressed that issue. The only thing I've ever considered even remotely and truly "op" when it comes to clans in general are those ranges.

It's near impossible for an IS mech to compete and even return fire unless they're specifically designed to do nothing BUT extreme range with ER tech and lurms.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Referenced thread:
https://www.reddit.c...caped_the_nerf/

I guess today is a good day to discuss a particular balance issue that has gone unchecked (and apparently I totally overlooked).... the state of long range lasers.

I totally missed how the Clan LPL didn't get touched AT ALL. If you gave it it's range nerf that all other Clan Lasers got (minus the CERLL), it would have 960m max range... which is still pretty good. The problem is that the Clan Large Pulse does infringe a lot on what the CERLL does, and then some (though for greater requirements).

It doesn't need a nerf, it weighs 50% more than the CERLLAS does and can't be slotted in things like heads, center torsos or all of the other 1 slot locations you find on many clan builds with their locked equipment.


It's better than the IS LLAS, but the IS LLAS at base is a below average weapon that only shines with quirks (of which there are a lot now), so I don't think the CLPL needs to be balanced against it.



There are quite a large number of +15% to +25% generic energy range IS mechs right now, I really think balance needs to settle for a while and not continue to look for even more nerfs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 December 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 03 December 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

It doesn't need a nerf, it weighs 50% more than the CERLLAS does and can't be slotted in things like heads, center torsos or all of the other 1 slot locations you find on many clan builds with their locked equipment.


It's better than the IS LLAS, but the IS LLAS at base is a below average weapon that only shines with quirks (of which there are a lot now), so I don't think the CLPL needs to be balanced against it.



There are quite a large number of +15% to +25% generic energy range IS mechs right now, I really think balance needs to settle for a while and not continue to look for even more nerfs.

Actually, the Clan LPL can fit into a CT as long as there isn't a hardwired item taking up 1 slot. (CT has 2 slots, CLPL is 2 slots).

Even as the inventor of the Wubhawk myself, I think that the CLPL could use at least some kind of nudge down. Even something modest like -1 damage (13 damage at 600m for 6 tons is amazeballs). If we use the current version of the CLPL as our baseline, that means that about 90% or more of the weapons in MWO are underpowered...

Assuming we ported that reduced max range thingy from Clan medium and small energy to the CPL, that still leaves its optimal range at 600m and its max range over 900m. The exact max range modifier seems to be 1.7x for mediums and 1.8x for smalls, for I guess 1.6x would be the most likely value. That gives us 960m max range, which is still pretty generous. I would still totally use this weapon.


That's not to say I'm looking for a giganerf like what happened to PPCs (you know how I stand on that issue), but sometimes a small, well-executed nerf may be necessary. Unfortunately, PGI prefers to use sledgehammers instead of scalpels for these matters...

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 03 December 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Actually, the Clan LPL can fit into a CT as long as there isn't a hardwired item taking up 1 slot. (CT has 2 slots, CLPL is 2 slots).

Even as the inventor of the Wubhawk myself, I think that the CLPL could use at least some kind of nudge down. Even something modest like -1 damage (13 damage at 600m for 6 tons is amazeballs). If we use the current version of the CLPL as our baseline, that means that about 90% or more of the weapons in MWO are underpowered...

Assuming we ported that reduced max range thingy from Clan medium and small energy to the CPL, that still leaves its optimal range at 600m and its max range over 900m. The exact max range modifier seems to be 1.7x for mediums and 1.8x for smalls, for I guess 1.6x would be the most likely value. That gives us 960m max range, which is still pretty generous. I would still totally use this weapon.


That's not to say I'm looking for a giganerf like what happened to PPCs (you know how I stand on that issue), but sometimes a small, well-executed nerf may be necessary. Unfortunately, PGI prefers to use sledgehammers instead of scalpels for these matters...

No, it doesn't need a nerf.

Again, things have changed now. There are so many huge changes with this recent update that to ask for more nerfs to clan weapons so soon is just being misguided and silly.

It's still limited to 2 for Ghost Heat, and it gets slotted on mechs that have locked equipment forcing hard tonnage restrictions.


Its fine where it is, its a very good weapon.

Its OK for somethings to be very good, not everything has to be a mediocre, unintersting "niche" weapon in a game that doesn't actually allow all that much niche play.


Also nerfing this weapon once again nerfs mechs with few hardpoints the most - they rely heavily on a few powerful weapons to perform.

We have systematically watched all of those weapon types get nerfed with a few exceptions, and the CLPL isn't such a ridiculous outlier that can be easily boat that I would support any kind of nerf for it.


P.S. I should have been clearer on CTs, there are a number of CTs clan side that only allow for one slot weapons.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 03 December 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

It doesn't need a nerf, it weighs 50% more than the CERLLAS does and can't be slotted in things like heads, center torsos or all of the other 1 slot locations you find on many clan builds with their locked equipment.


It's better than the IS LLAS, but the IS LLAS at base is a below average weapon that only shines with quirks (of which there are a lot now), so I don't think the CLPL needs to be balanced against it.



There are quite a large number of +15% to +25% generic energy range IS mechs right now, I really think balance needs to settle for a while and not continue to look for even more nerfs.

Honestly, if you're balancing with quirks, are you not suggesting there are issues with weapons themselves? This is essentially the PPC argument in a nutshell... if you have to rely on quirks so that the weapons are good, then there's probably something wrong with the weapon.

Mind you, the laser quirks on IS mechs more likely says more about Clan lasers than IS lasers.

I don't touch the CERLL at all... it's just not worth my time. The only time I bother with IS ERLL is when there is a duration quirk... of course that requires some decent high mounting points (using a Black Knight for ISERLL is a total waste).

Of all currently classified "long range weapons" for Clan Energy... what weapon do you expect to be using?

Clan ERPPC - need velocity quirk to matter
Clan ERLL - staredown time is too long and it's a sloooow poking death
Clan LPL - perfect... decent damage per tick, decent range (1200m max range)... pretty much optimal for most instances

For a thought, how many would take 3 CERLL (ghost heat or no ghost heat) over 2 CLPL in the current game?

Also, the Clan LPL is far more effective than the IS LL (let alone the obvious IS ERLL) over the same role (well, not really, due to range).. for only one more ton (yes, it's not fair or comparable, but that's just to provide more context).

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

No, it doesn't need a nerf.

Again, things have changed now. There are so many huge changes with this recent update that to ask for more nerfs to clan weapons so soon is just being misguided and silly.

It's still limited to 2 for Ghost Heat, and it gets slotted on mechs that have locked equipment forcing hard tonnage restrictions.


Its fine where it is, its a very good weapon.

Its OK for somethings to be very good, not everything has to be a mediocre, unintersting "niche" weapon in a game that doesn't actually allow all that much niche play.


Also nerfing this weapon once again nerfs mechs with few hardpoints the most - they rely heavily on a few powerful weapons to perform.

We have systematically watched all of those weapon types get nerfed with a few exceptions, and the CLPL isn't such a ridiculous outlier that can be easily boat that I would support any kind of nerf for it.


P.S. I should have been clearer on CTs, there are a number of CTs clan side that only allow for one slot weapons.

CLPL is a total outlier when it comes to Clan range in terms of overall performance vs its alternative options.

I'm suggesting a buff to both ERLL from both factions, as the CLPL does EVERYTHING better as currently constituted (I hadn't even suggested a duration increase CLPL in any of what I've posted).

I'm trying to make the already "utility" weapons better (the CERLL needs it more), but you can't let the CLPL be the optimal option for Clan range. It's just silly.

Edit:
The other alternative other than lowering max range on the Clan LPL is to lower optimal range (and indirectly max range due to the 2x optimal range rule) to something like 540m (1080m max).

Edited by Deathlike, 04 December 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Pjwned]

The main problem is that C-LPL optimal range is too high, partly because C-ER LL optimal range is exceptionally high as well.

All values below are the optimal range:

SL range 135m
C-ER SL range 200m

SPL range 110m
C-SPL range 165m

Both C-ER SL and C-SPL have ~50% more range than their IS counterparts

ML range 270m
C-ER ML range 405m

MPL range 220m
C-MPL range 330m

Both C-ER ML and C-MPL have 50% more range than their IS counterparts

LL range 450m
ER LL range 675m
C-ER LL range 740m

LPL range 365m
C-LPL range 600m

This is clearly where it starts getting messy.

First we have the LL vs. ER LL which follows the pattern of 50% more range, and the ER LL has more heat as well as a longer beam duration because of that, but then comes along the C-ER LL with an additional 65m optimal range on top of the already 50% more range. Of course the C-ER LL has an even longer beam duration than the ER LL and it's also 20% more heat, but the C-ER LL also has higher damage in addition to being smaller and lighter, so clearly the C-ER LL has some real advantages going for it even considering its higher heat and longer duration.

Is this balanced? I'm not really sure, it kind of seems like the C-ER LL should give something up, but it does have more heat and the beam duration is also quite long and that matters a lot when it comes to lasers, so...I don't know. If the C-ER LL were to be reined in a little bit, I think it should just be 675m optimal range like the ER LL.

The C-LPL clearly crosses the line though, it has the standard pulse laser advantages (higher damage, lower beam duration) while also being more lightweight than the LPL and for some reason on top of that it also has ~65% longer range rather than 50% longer range. I don't even see any reason for this, the C-LPL has such long range that you might as well only use the C-ER LL when you don't have 2 tons (and 1 slot I suppose) to spare, because otherwise 600m range is enough for nearly any situation, and that's not counting weapon modules and some quirks either.

tl;dr: C-LPL should be at most 545m optimal range, C-ER LL range is arguable.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Honestly, if you're balancing with quirks, are you not suggesting there are issues with weapons themselves? This is essentially the PPC argument in a nutshell... if you have to rely on quirks so that the weapons are good, then there's probably something wrong with the weapon.

Your blanket statement is missing too much.

1: you're talking about the IS LLAS - which should be its own conversation and not "nerf the CLPL".

2: quirks are used because there are a lot of balance issues not just on a single weapon.

A mech with nothing but energy hardpoints for example, can't mitigate heat load with cooler running ballistics - so we see energy only mechs getting buffs to use energy weapons (there was a time when these were the worst mechs, and not some of the best mechs - but that's a whole other conversation).

Another balance issue is as you mentioned, faction technology gap - here yes, I agree it would be better to just address the weapons directly, but PGI seems reluctant to do that. The IS LLAS has always been a middle of the road weapon though, so again if you want to buff it I'd be OK with that, not nerfing what the CLPL is.

That's how we have ended up with crappy PPCs & now crappy Gauss. Nerfing what is good to satisfy this drive for mediocrity or worse to adjust for the lowest common denominator of the player base.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't touch the CERLL at all... it's just not worth my time. The only time I bother with IS ERLL is when there is a duration quirk... of course that requires some decent high mounting points (using a Black Knight for ISERLL is a total waste).

So you don't touch these weapons because of the nerfs they recieved and your response is that we should then nerf the CLPL, to what end?

So we can stop using that as well?

You're making the kind of logical leaps I think the nerfinator makes here.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Of all currently classified "long range weapons" for Clan Energy... what weapon do you expect to be using?

I've finally gotten my feet wet in comp, and most of the long range battles will see you run CERLLAS or IS ERLLAS with quirks.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC - need velocity quirk to matter

Clan ERLL - staredown time is too long and it's a sloooow poking death

Clan LPL - perfect... decent damage per tick, decent range (1200m max range)... pretty much optimal for most instances

Are you even paying attention to your own examples? 2 out of 3 of those weapons you listed recieved nerfs making them non-viable for mid-range game play (which is where the CLPL is great, and is the primary range this game is played for public queue).

Before the CERLLAS was nerfed it was one of the most commonly used lasers clan side. It fit on heaps of mechs, had amazing performance for the tonnage and crit slots.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

For a thought, how many would take 3 CERLL (ghost heat or no ghost heat) over 2 CLPL in the current game?

If it were no longer nerfed because PGI has gone on a warpath against long ranged gameplay you'd see more CERLLAS, it's not even a question in my mind.


Do you really not remember the 8x CERLLAS DWFs some of the top teams were running?

It was my go to weapon on Stormcrows, it was excellent to pair with Gauss, etc.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Also, the Clan LPL is far more effective than the IS LL (let alone the obvious IS ERLL) over the same role (well, not really, due to range).. for only one more ton (yes, it's not fair or comparable, but that's just to provide more context).

There was a point where I agreed with this, but things have changed too much and this statement is no longer as cut and dry.


Ghost heat limit at 3, many mechs with 15% to 25% generic E-range quirks, -burn quirks & -heat quirks. Heaps of mechs with more structure quirks (which technicaly indirectly nerfs all weapons).


You really can no longer just say one is better than the other one using a vacuum comparison. The platforms that use them are too wildly different.

Deathlike, on 04 December 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

CLPL is a total outlier when it comes to Clan range in terms of overall performance vs its alternative options.


I'm suggesting a buff to both ERLL from both factions, as the CLPL does EVERYTHING better as currently constituted (I hadn't even suggested a duration increase CLPL in any of what I've posted).


I'm trying to make the already "utility" weapons better (the CERLL needs it more), but you can't let the CLPL be the optimal option for Clan range. It's just silly.


Edit:

The other alternative other than lowering max range on the Clan LPL is to lower optimal range (and indirectly max range due to the 2x optimal range rule) to something like 540m (1080m max).

Then you are being short sighted, and blind to the ramifications of what a nerf call like this will actually achieve.

P

PGI has systematically nerfed long range weapons.

CERLLAS
IS ERLLAS
C/ER PPCS
GAUSS


They are not going to suddenly buff those, they are going to nerf the CLPL.

All of those by the way recieved nerfs based off the endless threads like this whether well intentioned or just simply whining - that's just reality.


Do you want to feed the nerfinator? Because this is how you feed the nerfinator.

[Jun Watarase]

I'm genuinely curious as to why people think that very long ranged weapons are a huge advantage. I mean yea, you can harrass people at 800+ meters or whatever with ER LLs in a fast ECM mech. OK. But why would the enemy let you shoot at him like that forever? Its not hard to use cover to negate that range advantage. In the solo queue, the front line is usually not static, unless it's something dumb like skirmish on alpine peaks that tend to degenerate into "hey we will sit on this hill, attack us!" "nuh uh! you guys attack us!" "nuh uh!".

Ever end up in a game where it's like 11-8 and the last enemy alive is in a ECM light with ER LLs? I cant help but think that if he had a much higher DPS setup and helping to intercept the enemy lights or cap, the enemy team might actually have won.

And its even less important in CW. What are you going to do, sit 800 meters outside the gate and tell the defenders to charge into your sights? You are going to have to attack, and every gate conveniently has a ton of terrain that drops ranges all the way down to 200m and below.

In my experience most peekaboo fights tend to happen at 400m or below with some notable exceptions (ravines on hellebore springs are horribly designed), and thats where the 3x LPL tbolt shines.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 04 December 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Bobzilla]

I'd actually like to see less duration on the CerLL and much much less range on CLPL. There's never going to be a hard choice between the two, one's going to be much better than the other over the nerf cycles, until no one wants to use either at all.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Your blanket statement is missing too much.

1: you're talking about the IS LLAS - which should be its own conversation and not "nerf the CLPL".

2: quirks are used because there are a lot of balance issues not just on a single weapon.

A mech with nothing but energy hardpoints for example, can't mitigate heat load with cooler running ballistics - so we see energy only mechs getting buffs to use energy weapons (there was a time when these were the worst mechs, and not some of the best mechs - but that's a whole other conversation).

No, I'm talking about related weapons as I don't see that the IS LL needs buffing (at least for now).. it's rather that the Clan LPL really does need a nerf in some form. IMO, it's doing too much compared to the alternatives.

Quote

Another balance issue is as you mentioned, faction technology gap - here yes, I agree it would be better to just address the weapons directly, but PGI seems reluctant to do that. The IS LLAS has always been a middle of the road weapon though, so again if you want to buff it I'd be OK with that, not nerfing what the CLPL is.

That's how we have ended up with crappy PPCs & now crappy Gauss. Nerfing what is good to satisfy this drive for mediocrity or worse to adjust for the lowest common denominator of the player base.

So, if you think CLPL is "fine", why aren't the other alternatives popular? The game is still decisively mid-range, and the CERPPC and the CERLL is just not a thing.

Quote

So you don't touch these weapons because of the nerfs they recieved and your response is that we should then nerf the CLPL, to what end?

So we can stop using that as well?

You're making the kind of logical leaps I think the nerfinator makes here.

Well, I've already argued that PPCs across the board need buffs... though figuring out what's best for the IS ERPPC (the worst option in every instance) is another debate (besides velocity, it would either need some sort of damage buff - small splash damage bonus, inferior to the CERPPC, a heat reduction - something like 13.5 heat, or a massive velocity boost compared to the CERPPC).

Do you really want to use the nerfinator in discussion in your disagreement here? That doesn't help your argument.

Quote

I've finally gotten my feet wet in comp, and most of the long range battles will see you run CERLLAS or IS ERLLAS with quirks.

I'd rather deal with CLPL than either option, if I had to use long range. Of course, using quirks to your advance is a thing (particularly the range quirks), but I'm just talking about a no-quirk (or minimal quirk) situation.

Quote

Are you even paying attention to your own examples? 2 out of 3 of those weapons you listed recieved nerfs making them non-viable for mid-range game play (which is where the CLPL is great, and is the primary range this game is played for public queue).

Before the CERLLAS was nerfed it was one of the most commonly used lasers clan side. It fit on heaps of mechs, had amazing performance for the tonnage and crit slots.

Honestly, I don't see much on the CERLL front since the original 2.0s duration nerf (and obviously things changed since then).

Remember that GHOST HEAT was not applied previously in Clan tech's original existence. That's a major contributing factor.

Quote

If it were no longer nerfed because PGI has gone on a warpath against long ranged gameplay you'd see more CERLLAS, it's not even a question in my mind.


Do you really not remember the 8x CERLLAS DWFs some of the top teams were running?

It was my go to weapon on Stormcrows, it was excellent to pair with Gauss, etc.

I remember Gauss, Gauss, and more dual Gauss from the Direwolf. I'm not saying they didn't field CERLL, but Dual Gauss was the primary contributor to damage. Then you applied whatever form of laservomit you wished (CERMED, CLPL, and CERLL). CERPPC did get some play initially for obvious reasons (before PPC velocity was nerfed).

Quote

There was a point where I agreed with this, but things have changed too much and this statement is no longer as cut and dry.


Ghost heat limit at 3, many mechs with 15% to 25% generic E-range quirks, -burn quirks & -heat quirks. Heaps of mechs with more structure quirks (which technicaly indirectly nerfs all weapons).


You really can no longer just say one is better than the other one using a vacuum comparison. The platforms that use them are too wildly different.

It's better to simplify by the platform that can use them all more or less effectively (it's not so easy with IS Mechs, but much easier to accomplish to Clan Omnimechs). If you're taking the best Clan mech, and you're going to take long range energy... the optimal choice currently still is CLPL unless your strict role is to be a sniper. CLPL does everything well... that's the thing.

Quote

Then you are being short sighted, and blind to the ramifications of what a nerf call like this will actually achieve.

P

PGI has systematically nerfed long range weapons.

CERLLAS
IS ERLLAS
C/ER PPCS
GAUSS


They are not going to suddenly buff those, they are going to nerf the CLPL.

All of those by the way recieved nerfs based off the endless threads like this whether well intentioned or just simply whining - that's just reality.


Do you want to feed the nerfinator? Because this is how you feed the nerfinator.

Hypebole is not going to get good results (and the nerinator will do what the nerfinator does, regardless).

It's not totally impossible to nudge him in the right direction, but it needs to be clearer on what the message is.

The only nerf that should be applied is ONLY ONE of the following:
Damage - 13 -> 12 (or 12.25/12.5)
Max Range - 1200m -> 960m
Optimal Range - 600m (1200m max) -> 540m (1080m max)
Duration (last resort) - 1.12s -> 1.2s

Again, I'm still advocating for BUFFING BOTH ERLL... by simply reducing the duration by .1 (if you have to adjust the IS duration quirks, that's fine too).

This also includes rebuffing PPCs (all of them), but that's for a different discussion.

Look, I'm not saying nerf for the sake of nerfing... I'm saying there is a certainly level of discrepency between some weapons, and looking at the current state of weapons.. the Clan LPL for what you're paying for it is unfortunately still better than the alternatives (especially while escaping the Clan laser max range nerf).

[Johnny Z]

Ultimatum X, on 03 December 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

It doesn't need a nerf, it weighs 50% more than the CERLLAS does and can't be slotted in things like heads, center torsos or all of the other 1 slot locations you find on many clan builds with their locked equipment.


It's better than the IS LLAS, but the IS LLAS at base is a below average weapon that only shines with quirks (of which there are a lot now), so I don't think the CLPL needs to be balanced against it.



There are quite a large number of +15% to +25% generic energy range IS mechs right now, I really think balance needs to settle for a while and not continue to look for even more nerfs.

I think letting balance settle a bit isn't a bad idea.

I also think the IS XL engine should get a shut down instead of insta boom. Also the gauss charge up should have an auto fire option. Also the gauss fire rate just appears to slow and maybe a damage reduction would be better.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

No, it doesn't need a nerf.

Again, things have changed now. There are so many huge changes with this recent update that to ask for more nerfs to clan weapons so soon is just being misguided and silly.

It's still limited to 2 for Ghost Heat, and it gets slotted on mechs that have locked equipment forcing hard tonnage restrictions.

Limited to 2 for Paranormal Heat doesn't really do much against it, because even then it's still almost as much damage as 3 IS LL for less weight and more range etc.

Tonnage issues are something that really depend on which mech we're talking about; it's not an issue with the weapon itself. Trying to fit them on an Ice Ferret or Cute Fox will certainly be inefficient, but there are many more mechs that can make effective use of the gun. The mechs with weight issues do at least have the ERML to fall back on...

In terms of the inter-faction balance, remember that a lot of those humongoid quirks that the IS gets are because of things like this. Likewise, the reason that most Clan mechs have underwhelming quirks is because PGI is afraid that mechs with strong quirks and strong Clan guns would be crazytown.

On the topic of Paranormal Heat, I've seen some people suggest that Clan medium and large class energy get linked together, which can curb the largest Clan alphas (LPL + ERML combos) without even nerfing the base stats on those guns. If we really are afraid of making the CLPL worthless overnight, maybe something like this could be used to help improve the situation. It's not my preferred tactic though, because in general I think Paranormal Heat is bullocks...

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Its fine where it is, its a very good weapon.

Its OK for somethings to be very good, not everything has to be a mediocre, unintersting "niche" weapon in a game that doesn't actually allow all that much niche play.

There's a line between pretty good, and crazyballs. I think that the CLPL crosses it. To use PGI's "tier" system as a comparison point, I think the CLPL can probably qualify for Tier 0 or 0.5 right now, whereas my goal is to nudge it down to Tier 1.

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Also nerfing this weapon once again nerfs mechs with few hardpoints the most - they rely heavily on a few powerful weapons to perform.

Herein lies the double-edged-sword with balancing Clan guns and Clan mechs that I mentioned earlier. If we balance the weapons such that they are strong enough to compensate for some mechs being bad, what happens when we mount those really really good guns on mechs that aren't bad?

This is a rhetorical question, because several mechs already show us the answer...

The ideal solution here is to try to find ways to make the bad mechs less dependent on certain guns being super-duper in order to be playable. This could mean easy things like hitbox adjustments or maybe quirkage. Some mechs should probably break the tradition of not inflating Omni hardpoints. There are other sub-par weapons that could use improvement at the same time (like the [ER]PPC, for instance).

If desperate enough, maybe we might have to bite the bullet and loosen a few customization restrictions. Etc.

Ultimatum X, on 04 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

We have systematically watched all of those weapon types get nerfed with a few exceptions, and the CLPL isn't such a ridiculous outlier that can be easily boat that I would support any kind of nerf for it.

I'm trying to be as modest and fair as I can with these proposals, because I understand more than most people how the Wheel-Of-Meta keeps turning. I'm always the person who points out which guns used to be the daily whine and which ones were poop. I'm the one to tell people which mechs used to be king, which ones used to suck, and why they used to be that way. I'm the one who tells them to be careful about what they asked for, and remind them of exactly what they did ask for, and what resulted when they asked for it.

The point is that PGI's Nerfinator Sledgehammers are not the only way this has to be. Very careful changes can be possible with scalpels, if only we could convince Paul to put his nerfhammer away...

Edited by FupDup, 04 December 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

If lasers are going to be "normalized" like that, I don't see why the CLPL should be excluded. May give more people a reason to bring the hot CERPPCs.

I still wonder how this game would play if everything had canon damage and heat, max range 2x optimum range but with cooldowns adjusted. Missiles would obviously need some sort of adjustment...maybe 2x range also but with spread increasing past optimum range (630m for LRMs and 270m for SRMs). SRMs would need to be semi-guided like in lore fluff (which would then open up MRMs down the road with current SRM mechanics at longer ranges with more missiles). IS Gauss, LRMs and ERPPC/ERLL would still be long range kings at 630m optimum range. Quirks kind of mess this all up though, in terms of base weapon balancing.

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

Well, tightening the spread doesn't strictly fix its existing mediocrity at range, based on the current mechanics.

Lostdragon, on 03 December 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Then they would fire projectiles the size of standard ACs...

Well, you'd still have the change of some of the pellets missing or hitting other sections with bad aim. Also, the crit chance bonus thing..