33 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

CF Alpha Scout, on 04 December 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

[...]
2. Pay to Win

This seems to be a problem with every game nowadays. But MechWarrior Online, it's annoying as all hell. Honestly, PGI seriously thinks that we'll buy into this crap. It isn't persuasive enough. Nor is it even persuasive at all. It is the easy-way-out in the entire game, goddamn it. Not much else.
[...]

Everything in MWO is completely free in the end, so it CANNTO be pay to win. Per definition, so to speak.
You're ONLY paying for impatience (and supporting the developers, of course).
Everyone saying something else is delusional.

[Weeny Machine]

CF Alpha Scout, on 04 December 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

1. Energy Weapons being nerfed to hell (pretty much every weapon now)

Weird. Having played CW yesterday and today....and it seems the people didn't get your memo. I felt like in Studio 54...all this laser light

[Sandpit]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 05 December 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

Everything is difficult if you don't understand it.

Battletech heat is however extremely easy to learn.

Weapon heat values are listed on the sheet.

Walking generates 1 heat, running generates 2 heat., jumping generates heat equal to the number of hexes moved, flamers add 2 heat, each critical hit generates 5 heat and once you're done adding up the heat generated you remove an amount equal to the number of heat sinks you have and that's it for the base game.

Sure you can add in inferno SRMs, plasma rifles, incendiary bombs from aerospace fighters, ambient conditions, super chargers, wind effects, being under water, etc etc etc but even then it's more a matter of being able to read a chart than anything complex.

No
It was hard to manage because mechs were inefficient at handling, not due to piloting skill.

Look at the heat penalties there.

Take note of engine hit and movement heat modifiers

look at the heat generation for the weapons (pay particular attention to the IS weapons listed that are in MWO)
3 large lasers? Ok, that's 24 heat right off the bat.
24
Ran? +2 = 26 heat
Assuming you have no engine damage (and don't talk DHS since we were talking original TT game now, so no cheating we can have that discussion in a different thread and time) that's 26 gross heat generated (oh and if you happen to have passed through any fire, that would give you anywhere from an additional 1-5 heat easy)
26 heat
Let's say you have 20 heat sinks

That 20 heat sinks bring your net heat down to 6. That means that next round you start at a base of 6 heat instead of 0 and spend that entire round under that heat penalty, which in this case would be a -1 movement modifier (really huge honestly considering most mechs are looking at moving 5-12 hexes at max speed based on the average assault and light in the game.
So that means your max movement drops to 4-11 that round (which means those poor fatties can't even generate a +2 to hit modifier for opponents that round making them even easier targets), oh and if you jump, you gain +1 heat for every movement made with JJs (that means you jump that 4 hexes and make two facing turns you just generated +6 heat AND have a +4 added to your to-hit score that round when you try to shoot anything)

It all scales up from there as you can see in the charts I listed. No offense, but it's quite apparent that you either didn't play TT, played muchkin builds (that wouldn't be allowed in any sanctioned tournament or any "serious" game of Btech anyhow), or are just ignoring heat penalties in general

Since they're currently so popular

You can clearly see how inefficient heat was and how hard it was to manage in the TT game I've been discussing. Simply standing still (and making yourself a juicy target) to pop off two PPC rounds would generate +20 heat and with only 16 heat sinks that puts you at +4 heat right off the bat.

If you want to use TT as support for your ideas and suggestions and arguments, then understand the material and while MWO is not Btech, Btech is still the entire basis for MWO.

You're here playing a Btech game. Not a robot stompy game. There's nothing wrong with playing stompy robots, but when you ask, complain, etc. about "Well why do things work like this? We should be able to do backflips in mechs and powerslide around corners and use whatever tech and forget the rules because it's all about "fun", just remember that you're playing a Btech game and a LOT (hell ALL) of the fans of that game find every single one of the "hard" aspects of Btech "fun"

[Lily from animove]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 03:22 AM, said:

Except the people who do and can you mean

well the mobility nerfs differ from mech to emch, some can still twist fine, some don't need tryign to twist anymore because they are now toos low to twist properly. This will lead people to drop some mechs, which is again sad, because across all baord nerfs never helped balance except increasing gaps. Every mech has a maximum possible potential, piloting skill is how much of this potential you can squeeze out of this mech, and mechs do not have equal potentials in MWO.

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 December 2015 - 04:34 AM.

[kapusta11]

So you was not allowed to carry double heatsinks instead of single ones back in TT?

[Sandpit]

kapusta11, on 05 December 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

So you was not allowed to carry double heatsinks instead of single ones back in TT?

Not in level 1 tech (which is where we're at now in MWO)

EDIT:
Level 1 tech refers to the current tech level of Inner Sphere mechs. Clans are L2 tech and above by default.

Lily from animove, on 05 December 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:

well the mobility nerfs differ from mech to emch, some can still twist fine, some don't need tryign to twist anymore because they are now toos low to twist properly. This will lead people to drop some mechs, which is again sad, because across all baord nerfs never helped balance except increasing gaps.

there's never been a mech that was rendered useless due to a nerf, buff, or patch with very few exceptions outside of a bug or coding error that was unintentional in the first place.

There's not a single useless mech in MWO nor has there ever been.

Edited by Sandpit, 05 December 2015 - 04:21 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Not in level 1 tech (which is where we're at now in MWO)

EDIT:
Level 1 tech refers to the current tech level of Inner Sphere mechs. Clans are L2 tech and above by default.


there's never been a mech that was rendered useless due to a nerf, buff, or patch with very few exceptions outside of a bug or coding error that was unintentional in the first place.

There's not a single useless mech in MWO nor has there ever been.

there are in comparison mechs being a lot worse. in a competitive surroudig they are said to be useless. yes every mech can do damage and kill stuff but they differ in their efficiency. And efficiency is what matters. A mech thant can't twist properly anymore and therefe halves it's lifetime is just nto worth it if you want to play vs other good players.

[Melon Lord]

CF Alpha Scout, on 04 December 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

2. Pay to Win

Stopped reading here. Only entitled whiny teens would call a game where you can literally buy any mech* for cbills Pay to Win. Good lord.

*(except rather average at best heroes)

[MechB Kotare]

No one cares dude. Just quietly F off finally.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

No
It was hard to manage because mechs were inefficient at handling, not due to piloting skill.

Look at the heat penalties there.

Take note of engine hit and movement heat modifiers

look at the heat generation for the weapons (pay particular attention to the IS weapons listed that are in MWO)
3 large lasers? Ok, that's 24 heat right off the bat.
24
Ran? +2 = 26 heat
Assuming you have no engine damage (and don't talk DHS since we were talking original TT game now, so no cheating we can have that discussion in a different thread and time) that's 26 gross heat generated (oh and if you happen to have passed through any fire, that would give you anywhere from an additional 1-5 heat easy)
26 heat
Let's say you have 20 heat sinks

That 20 heat sinks bring your net heat down to 6. That means that next round you start at a base of 6 heat instead of 0 and spend that entire round under that heat penalty, which in this case would be a -1 movement modifier (really huge honestly considering most mechs are looking at moving 5-12 hexes at max speed based on the average assault and light in the game.
So that means your max movement drops to 4-11 that round (which means those poor fatties can't even generate a +2 to hit modifier for opponents that round making them even easier targets), oh and if you jump, you gain +1 heat for every movement made with JJs (that means you jump that 4 hexes and make two facing turns you just generated +6 heat AND have a +4 added to your to-hit score that round when you try to shoot anything)

It all scales up from there as you can see in the charts I listed. No offense, but it's quite apparent that you either didn't play TT, played muchkin builds (that wouldn't be allowed in any sanctioned tournament or any "serious" game of Btech anyhow), or are just ignoring heat penalties in general

Since they're currently so popular

You can clearly see how inefficient heat was and how hard it was to manage in the TT game I've been discussing. Simply standing still (and making yourself a juicy target) to pop off two PPC rounds would generate +20 heat and with only 16 heat sinks that puts you at +4 heat right off the bat.

If you want to use TT as support for your ideas and suggestions and arguments, then understand the material and while MWO is not Btech, Btech is still the entire basis for MWO.

You're here playing a Btech game. Not a robot stompy game. There's nothing wrong with playing stompy robots, but when you ask, complain, etc. about "Well why do things work like this? We should be able to do backflips in mechs and powerslide around corners and use whatever tech and forget the rules because it's all about "fun", just remember that you're playing a Btech game and a LOT (hell ALL) of the fans of that game find every single one of the "hard" aspects of Btech "fun"

Eh... I forgot a couple of things like the heat from standing up but my list was more or less complete and I assumed that anyone reading my post would realize that if heat sunk was less than heat generated it'd carry over. I realize now I should have explicitly said so.

It still only amounts to starting heat+ heat generated-heat sunk and then apply a penalty if relevant from a table.

It's really not that complex.

Heat management isn't that difficult. Although determining what is going to be optimal for any given situation is really a matter of doing the probabilities in your head real quick and guessing what your opponent might do next turn and whether or not you'd be better off running a bit hot this turn or next turn or not at all. Pretty basic math really.

Also the marauder has that AC5 for a reason.

For the mad you might consider something like this

Round 1: If you have a good shot and won't need to move 4/6 next round 2PPC+AC5, otherwise 1PPC+ac5
Round 2: 1PPC +AC5, sink heat
Round 3: If heat is still high from moving, 1PPC+AC5, otherwise 2PPC+AC5

Just add or subtract PPCs depending on quality of shot and if the enemy is close enough one might choose to use the ML instead of a PPC depending on quality of shot, areas without armor, etc.

It's not you know simple but I find people can get the hang of TT in single game so it's not really that complex either.

[LordBraxton]

@ the OP

Ive bitched plenty on these forums, I personally don;t have much faith in PGI...

However, the recent changes seem like the first huge positive moves made by PGI in the past 2 YEARS!

Slowing down the speed and TTK.
Balancing Clams (finally I can stop piloting exclusively my EXE\EBJ)
The recent map voting system

it's all good so far.

if this isnt the kind of change you wanted Im not sure Id like your vision for MWO.

I want slower TTK if anything

tldr: PGI is finally making good decisions (just in time to sell the new IS mechs )

Edited by LordBraxton, 05 December 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Sandpit]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 05 December 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Eh... I forgot a couple of things like the heat from standing up but my list was more or less complete and I assumed that anyone reading my post would realize that if heat sunk was less than heat generated it'd carry over. I realize now I should have explicitly said so.

It still only amounts to starting heat+ heat generated-heat sunk and then apply a penalty if relevant from a table.

It's really not that complex.

Heat management isn't that difficult. Although determining what is going to be optimal for any given situation is really a matter of doing the probabilities in your head real quick and guessing what your opponent might do next turn and whether or not you'd be better off running a bit hot this turn or next turn or not at all. Pretty basic math really.

Also the marauder has that AC5 for a reason.

For the mad you might consider something like this

Round 1: If you have a good shot and won't need to move 4/6 next round 2PPC+AC5, otherwise 1PPC+ac5
Round 2: 1PPC +AC5, sink heat
Round 3: If heat is still high from moving, 1PPC+AC5, otherwise 2PPC+AC5

Just add or subtract PPCs depending on quality of shot and if the enemy is close enough one might choose to use the ML instead of a PPC depending on quality of shot, areas without armor, etc.

It's not you know simple but I find people can get the hang of TT in single game so it's not really that complex either.

I didn't mean to imply heat management is hard to comprehend, I meant heat management was hard to do in these mechs. There's no way in hell you would stomp around and fire off alpha strikes shot after shot under that heat table. You'd blow up within the first 3-4 rounds at most (if not long before than because your heat penalties now make you an easy target AND you get to-hit modifiers for shooting back).

I took the statements I responded to to mean "Heat wasn't an issue" type thing. Heat was the primary balancing point for all mechs. Heat was always the primary concern of a build. Btech revolved around it's heat scale and the penalties mechs incurred for running hot. Anyone who played the game for any length of time and got halfway decent at it, learned to manage their heat fairly easily as the concept itself isn't hard to grasp. Putting it into play and efficiently using it is another thing totally.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

I didn't mean to imply heat management is hard to comprehend, I meant heat management was hard to do in these mechs. There's no way in hell you would stomp around and fire off alpha strikes shot after shot under that heat table. You'd blow up within the first 3-4 rounds at most (if not long before than because your heat penalties now make you an easy target AND you get to-hit modifiers for shooting back).

I took the statements I responded to to mean "Heat wasn't an issue" type thing. Heat was the primary balancing point for all mechs. Heat was always the primary concern of a build. Btech revolved around it's heat scale and the penalties mechs incurred for running hot. Anyone who played the game for any length of time and got halfway decent at it, learned to manage their heat fairly easily as the concept itself isn't hard to grasp. Putting it into play and efficiently using it is another thing totally.

Ah we both misunderstood then. I really wish we had heat penalties in mwo. It wouldn't be hard to implement some kind of sliding heat bar that tells you what penalty you're at and how far away you are towards the next one. Then if you go up or down a level the points you're measuring between change. It would require a bit in the training area maybe but it'd we way more newbie friendly than ghost heat.

Although I will admit I found it hilarious when the nova prime was a trial mech for like 2 days. I'm new! Let's fire all the lasers and see what happens... OH GOD WHY DID I EXPLODE!?!?!

[Wingbreaker]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

EDIT:
Level 1 tech refers to the current tech level of Inner Sphere mechs. Clans are L2 tech and above by default.

Wut.

No.

Tech 1 is pre-memory core lostech era ****. Back when BT was a really rough post-apocalypse but with cool robits.. FF/Endo, etc, ANYTHING from TRO 2750 to TRO 3050 are Tech2.

Tech 3 is Maxtech and foreward.

Edit: Not that any of this matters, nor should you ever bring up Tech level really. Tech levels haven't been updated since 98 TMK, anything post-FASA doesn't even work within the 3 tier.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 05 December 2015 - 11:34 PM.