46 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

TheRAbbi, on 13 December 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Precisely. Boating is pretty uncommon..

Actually... It's fairly common. I constantly hear "Boat or go home" (not literally in those words) when it comes to LRMs. Many of my builds are of the "Take a launcher or two, with some good direct fire" variety. When I post them, I get told how bad they are, and that I should have 60+ tubes...

Maybe it's changed in the last few patches. I can only hope. Boating with LRMs is just asking for trouble, of course in my opinion.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I hardly ever see boats any more. Definitely nothing like during the LURMpocalypse, when having 3-5 LRM boat CPLTs on an 8-mech team was common. Seriously, I remember one match where there were 6 LRM boats out of 8 mechs. I was the schmuck in the Jenner that got called upon to go find and lock them targets (I think the 8th was a derpy PPC build or maybe a brawly Atlas).

Yeah, when you're the ONLY one on your team NOT hanging in the back (by the big dish on the old Forest Colony map), and you have like 230-ish armor to go around, you get to feelin' "like a little worm on a big f***in' hook", to quote [a certain character from "The Crow"].

Edited by TheRAbbi, 13 December 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[B0oN]

I know that feel, Rabbi ...
Far too good ^^

[Tesunie]

TheRAbbi, on 13 December 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

I hardly ever see boats any more. Definitely nothing like during the LURMpocalypse, when having 3-5 LRM boat CPLTs on an 8-mech team was common. Seriously, I remember one match where there were 6 LRM boats out of 8 mechs. I was the schmuck in the Jenner that got called upon to go find and lock them targets (I think the 8th was a derpy PPC build or maybe a brawly Atlas).

Yeah, when you're the ONLY one on your team NOT hanging in the back (by the big dish on the old Forest Colony map), and you have like 230-ish armor to go around, you get to feelin' "like a little worm on a big f***in' hook", to quote [a certain character from "The Crow"].

Rad Hanzo, on 14 December 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

I know that feel, Rabbi ...
Far too good ^^

Guess why I don't hang in the back of the group, and instead am on the front lines? Often times, I'm the first mech in the line (don't ask me why or how it happens), even with my LRMs...

Edited by Tesunie, 14 December 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[Johny Rocket]

MavRCK, on 09 December 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Ok new players:

This match will be streamed this coming Sunday to show you why you don't play LRMs:

http://mwomercs.com/...h-lrms-vs-meta/

Enjoy the carnage.

You mean the match between high level comp players where matches are over in 2 minutes so nothing but hitscan is worth a ****?
Yeah that has absolutely nothing to do with play anywhere but meta comp and tryhard wanna be's.

So yeah get out of here with that BS casual players will never be there and could ******* care less.

This tryhard attitude is also why you can't have a constructive discussion on Lrms. leading to a never ending circle jerk of noobs doing it wrong.

This wasn't a discussion on whether lrms are good or not so all you ******* tryhards GTFO to one of the hundreds of threads were that was the point.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 14 December 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I have this feeling that we could tone down the language and rage just a few (dozen) notches.

Tryhards can't help it. They're wired that way from birth. Seriously, I think the next DSM is going to list it as its own distinct disorder. (Don't worry--their self-worth won't allow them to claim Social Security benefits for it.)

So, that tryhard stuff has its place. If one hopes to eventually compete at a high level, LRMs are probably not appropriate weapons. It's advisable to train for the goal, and the goal has a conspicuous absence of LRMs right now.

For casual play, or not-high-level competition, though, LRMs are useful. And for that 95% of MWO players, having some useful advice on LRM tactics and best practices, is a good thing.

Y'all kiss and make up, now.

[pwnface]

Tractor Joe, on 14 December 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

You mean the match between high level comp players where matches are over in 2 minutes so nothing but hitscan is worth a ****?
Yeah that has absolutely nothing to do with play anywhere but meta comp and tryhard wanna be's.

So yeah get out of here with that BS casual players will never be there and could ******* care less.

This tryhard attitude is also why you can't have a constructive discussion on Lrms. leading to a never ending circle jerk of noobs doing it wrong.

This wasn't a discussion on whether lrms are good or not so all you ******* tryhards GTFO to one of the hundreds of threads were that was the point.

Please show me on the mech paperdoll where the meta touched you.

Why are you so angry that people are pointing out that LRMs are bad? Unless you have a really difficult time aiming because you have a bad computer, lag, really poor hand eye coordination etc, there isn't a good reason to use LRMs over direct fire. If you aren't able to hit mechs with direct fire, at least LRMs can help you contribute a little bit I guess.

[Tesunie]

pwnface, on 16 December 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Why are you so angry that people are pointing out that LRMs are bad?

I wouldn't call LRMs "bad", but they aren't "great" either. They have their uses, just like they have their flaws.

pwnface, on 16 December 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

...there isn't a good reason to use LRMs over direct fire. If you aren't able to hit mechs with direct fire, at least LRMs can help you contribute a little bit I guess.

For fun? For play style? For a different role to experiment with?

And indirect fire for LRMs I find nice for those times I can't get line of sight. I don't remain out of line of sight, but it's handy when I can't get line of sight. (Such as in an assault mech. It's nice to throw a few LRMs on a target as I wade myself into range and sight of my other weapons. My current brawling Atlas experiment wishes it had LRMs on it. So much time spent just trying to get into position...)

[Not A Real RAbbi]

^^^ Yeah, that.

Seriously, if one could have Scotty BEAM them to where that enemy mech was just spotted, that'd be cool. Since this isn't STO, though, we don't get beamed anywhere (Snotty beamed me twice last night). And therefore, sometimes that INDIRECT fire is the ONLY fire a mech can put on target. And with that indirect fire, the target may be destroyed, whereas without it, the target may NOT be destroyed, instead destroying a teammate of the poor little battlemech that couldn't.

SOMETIMES. And sometimes not.

[ChewBaka]

- Keep your armor intact. Most LRM boats are running XL's to carry extensive amounts of ammo. You need to last the entire fight to do the maximum amount of damage.

No. Just no. This is advanced LRMing for cowardly selfish players who are just concerned about their personal score and KD ratio but don't care for the team.

Any player who is not driving a light that doesn't help to soak some damage is a burden to the team. Its as simple as that. No excuses accepted. You are prioritizing your own survival over that of the team.

Mind you, I'm not asking you to expose yourself unnecessarily but you should never hesistate to draw some fire to yourself. You want the other team to split their fire and not just aim at your frontline brawlers.

I'm also not saying you should just face-tank the shots. If you can draw their attention and step back into cover again, than by all means do so. However, if your mech isn't mobile enough, than you're just going to have to grin and bear it. It can't be the Atlas alone who soaks all the PPCs and Gauss.

And I don't want to hear any complaints about 'ammo explosion' either. That Atlas has his AC20 and SRM ammo to worry about too. Why are you so special, eh? Oh, you have that precious XL engine. Nope, still not accepted as an excuse. As you're not in the front lines and not under immediate danger until it collapses, you can afford to take some dmg.

Far too many LRM boats try to get through a match without even getting their paint scratch. Very often, when the team falls, you will see one lone survivor in the back with 90% health. Such players are just parasites to the team, riding on their coat tails to victory but never meaningfully contributing on their own.

[Tesunie]

ChewBaka, on 17 December 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

- Keep your armor intact. Most LRM boats are running XL's to carry extensive amounts of ammo. You need to last the entire fight to do the maximum amount of damage.

No. Just no. This is advanced LRMing for cowardly selfish players who are just concerned about their personal score and KD ratio but don't care for the team.

Any player who is not driving a light that doesn't help to soak some damage is a burden to the team. Its as simple as that. No excuses accepted. You are prioritizing your own survival over that of the team.

Mind you, I'm not asking you to expose yourself unnecessarily but you should never hesistate to draw some fire to yourself. You want the other team to split their fire and not just aim at your frontline brawlers.

I'm also not saying you should just face-tank the shots. If you can draw their attention and step back into cover again, than by all means do so. However, if your mech isn't mobile enough, than you're just going to have to grin and bear it. It can't be the Atlas alone who soaks all the PPCs and Gauss.

And I don't want to hear any complaints about 'ammo explosion' either. That Atlas has his AC20 and SRM ammo to worry about too. Why are you so special, eh? Oh, you have that precious XL engine. Nope, still not accepted as an excuse. As you're not in the front lines and not under immediate danger until it collapses, you can afford to take some dmg.

Far too many LRM boats try to get through a match without even getting their paint scratch. Very often, when the team falls, you will see one lone survivor in the back with 90% health. Such players are just parasites to the team, riding on their coat tails to victory but never meaningfully contributing on their own.

Sounds like a bit of unnecessary hate here...

I am not disagreeing with you, as I believe even LRM mechs (I never boat LRMs) should be near the team and willing to get into the fray, but you placed a might bit too much anger/hate into your post...

PS: Assault mechs are not meat shields. They are not there to tank damage. They can do so, but they also typically have a lot of weapons as well. They are slow and easy to hit, which means they typically die faster than, say, most heavies in the game, especially if they get focused on.

[ChewBaka]

Tesunie, on 17 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Sounds like a bit of unnecessary hate here...

I am not disagreeing with you, as I believe even LRM mechs (I never boat LRMs) should be near the team and willing to get into the fray, but you placed a might bit too much anger/hate into your post...

PS: Assault mechs are not meat shields. They are not there to tank damage. They can do so, but they also typically have a lot of weapons as well. They are slow and easy to hit, which means they typically die faster than, say, most heavies in the game, especially if they get focused on.

Because in PUGlandia, that is exactly what a lot of LRM boats do. They hide way in the back as though their paint jobs is so precious to them, and I'm a little worried that your advice might just end up encouraging or validating their behaviour.

I have nothing against LRM boats who stay with the team because that's how I play one myself.

However, a Stormcrow, Griffin, or Summoner running around boating LRM5s using their speed to stay hiden is nothing but a burden to the team. You might end up doing a respectable amont of dmg with such builds but it contributes little to team victory which is why I call such players parasites. Its a simple no-risk no-skill playstyle that is completely dependent on your team to win. They're certainly not counting on you, that's for sure.

There are good LRM boat players and there are bad LRM boat players, and it seems to me like your advice is not encouraging the proper sort I would prefer to see on my team.

Edited by ChewBaka, 17 December 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[Tesunie]

I think we are basically in agreement for the most part then.

ChewBaka, on 17 December 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

it seems to me like your advice is not encouraging the proper sort I would prefer to see on my team.

Just a reminder, it isn't my specific advise. However, that piece of advice is technically helpful to the individual player, and that extra damage does help the team out. There are more effective means to do so for LRMs, but if you are new, it's best to keep you alive and dealing some damage, rather than pushing the front and dieing doing almost no damage.

That piece of advice I think needs to be taken not literally, but as one is learning to get their legs under them? It is right, but not "all the time" kinda advise... If I don't have to show myself because my team is being that coordinated, then I don't necessarily have to expose myself (it happens some matches). If needed, I can though. The difficulty is often knowing when to expose yourself, and when you should/can afford to remain hidden.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Tesunie, on 17 December 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

If needed, I can though. The difficulty is often knowing when to expose yourself, and when you should/can afford to remain hidden.

Man, ain't THAT the truth...

So, this one public queue match a while back... Skirmish or Assault, River City. We dropped on the upper/lower city side of the river. The usual. We go into lower and take cover along the riverfront in the buildings. Other team occupies the citadel. Some long-range harassing across the river, but nothing serious. Somebody (I honestly don't remember the name) gets all wannabe and tries to lead a charge across the river. IN THE OPEN, against an enemy with decent position on the other side and a demonstrated will and ability to use ranged firepower. It ends in tears. We're down like 11 mechs to 8.

Captain Blowhard calls us all "F***ING P***IES" (without the asterisks) for not following him across the river to victory, or something. Match ended with a 12-4 victory for us. And yeah, I was in a EBJ-PRIME with 2x cALRM-15 and 5x cERML, and I did NOT just sit in the back and wax my mech, and I pulled 2 of those 12 kills and 400-500 DMG. The fight turned on the other team's split push--some across the G line, the rest under the bridge. And I (and at least one other mech with LRMs) moved back and forth between the two sides of our position, moving TO the fight (not AWAY from it), sharing damage with the teammates, FACING the enemies, doing all the things.

It was fun. It was pretty much what Tesunie and all are talking about with an LRM non-boat, and I think also what ChewBaka is getting at as well. It's a good way to play LRMs, as opposed to the "LOCK PLS" crowd (who I admit ARE getting to be pretty annoying). I'll get my own locks, and I'll fire directly AND indirectly on my targets. If a scout finds me a good target, then THAT IS SO GREAT! If not, well, that EBJ carries a fair bit of armor, and it can pew-pew back even WITHOUT the missiles.

Edited by TheRAbbi, 17 December 2015 - 11:56 PM.

[Zookeeper Dan]

I run the Mauler 1R with 4 ALRM 15. It does really well. The thing to remember is LRM can fit indirectly, but they are much better 200 - 400 m direct fire weapons. In fact, the Artemis doesn't do anything if you're firing indirectly.

Being an assault missile boat means you can put yourself in line of fire while your missiles hit. You can stand out, lock, fire, and have those missiles hit before enemies can get back into cover. Once you realize that indirect fire will turn lots of armor yellow, but direct will open CT's you should start prioritizing direct fire.

Although I still feel guilty being an assault LRM boat. Been having much better luck in my 4 LRM 15 Hunchback IIC-B. This mech is all about front line brawler support.

Edited by Danth Reduviid, 18 December 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Speedkermit]

ChewBaka, on 17 December 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Because in PUGlandia, that is exactly what a lot of LRM boats do. They hide way in the back as though their paint jobs is so precious to them, and I'm a little worried that your advice might just end up encouraging or validating their behaviour.

I have nothing against LRM boats who stay with the team because that's how I play one myself.

However, a Stormcrow, Griffin, or Summoner running around boating LRM5s using their speed to stay hiden is nothing but a burden to the team. You might end up doing a respectable amont of dmg with such builds but it contributes little to team victory which is why I call such players parasites. Its a simple no-risk no-skill playstyle that is completely dependent on your team to win. They're certainly not counting on you, that's for sure.

There are good LRM boat players and there are bad LRM boat players, and it seems to me like your advice is not encouraging the proper sort I would prefer to see on my team.

So doing respectable damage to the enemy team contributes little to victory?

Okaaaaaay, makes perfect sense.

[Tesunie]

Luke George, on 05 January 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

So doing respectable damage to the enemy team contributes little to victory?

Okaaaaaay, makes perfect sense.

Yes, and no.

LRMs do a lot of spread damage. This results in LRMs dealing upwards of 1000s of damage even, yet sometimes not actually being effective.

When you can drop most mechs with only 100 damage to their CT (or less) compared to peppering them with 300-400 damage with LRMs splattering them all over the place before they drop...

Yes, every point of damage is a good thing to bring down the enemy. However, were the damage is applied is also important to. Damage applied to a shield arm (an arm with no weapons) is almost waisted damage at actually trying to destroy that target. Where as even half that damage on a leg, side torso or CT would be more effective at dropping that target that much sooner.


The person you are quoting is only partially true, but also not correct at the same time.
For his specific line of LRM5 boated mechs (and I'll say now I don't overly like them and feel they aren't always very effective) , they can be effective and valuable to the team. They deal damage (any amount of damage is good, but as mentioned previously, not always "great"), but they also repress the enemy, shake and blind them... They are support, and they can do that well.


Normally, when discussing something, the truth lies someplace between the two sides of the argument. (Consider it like a coin. You have the head and the tails side of one coin. The truth is often the rim of the coin.)

Edited by Tesunie, 05 January 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[htsmithium]

Personally my favorite lrm-boat is my timberwolf S or D (the one that does not have jump jets ) run 4X lrm15s on it and 5 cer-med lasers. Tends to do its best launching when the lasers are also in range.

[Sonny Black]

TAG: Mandatory

Could not disagree more. TAG goes both ways. You might as well have a big sign saying Mech Here.

[StalaggtIKE]

Despite not caring for LRM in their current iteration, I must concede this is great tutorial!