75 replies to this topic

[Sevronis]

Khereg, on 08 December 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

None taken, but just pulling together a large unit isn't enough to do what we did. Both SWOL and SRoT (and maybe a couple of others) are actually bigger units than -MS-. Laying it all out there, here's what it takes to dominate CW/Tukkayid:

1. Gather a large number of players (not as easy as it sounds)
2. Get those players to actually participate on a regular basis (also not as easy as it sounds)
3. Have those players have enough skill to win the vast majority of their matches (obviously not easy)

If you have a longer attention span, here's a little more detail on each.

1. Keeping a large group together isn't easy, especially if many of the players are above-average in skill. Good players can have big ego's and don't always like going along with the consensus of the group. Other larger, more competitive units have fractured over time in MWO. So far -MS- has held it together. I credit Tony and the other sub-unit leaders for keeping it interesting and fun w/o a lot of internal drama.

2. The grind is real. We saw a big drop off in CW participation over the course of Beta 2. Fortunately, many people came back for Tukkayid. Building a culture where dropping in on the TS is always a good time helps. I doubt -MS- has any advantage on that front, though. I'm sure most units are fun to participate in or they wouldn't exist.

3. This one gets interesting. I see -MS- consistently painted with two very broad (and off-target) brushes. We're either all seal-clubbing psycopathic tryhards, or we're completely unskilled scrubs who only win because we're in a group. The truth is more complex.

Contrary to some perceptions, -MS- is not a "casual" unit. We do have standards of performance we want our members to achieve. However, unlike a lot of other competitive units, we are willing to give almost anyone a chance to make the cut. Ask to join -MS- and we'll at least let you on the TS, put you in a group and see how you do. We'll also be getting to know you, because toxic personalities have a way of causing discord and ultimately fracturing of the group if allowed to persist (see #1).

However, our standards aren't crazy difficult to meet. We're not SJR or EmP and we're not trying to be. We understand the combination of factors that lead to CW success, so we try to be open to new members. We're willing to work with people to get them up to snuff, but if they won't listen to advice, won't try to improve their skills, or are a toxic presence in the room, their time with us will be somewhat brief. I would say that 30+% of the players in MWO have the raw skills to make it in -MS- if they wanted to put in the effort. That's totally pulled from my nether regions, but it's probably not that far off.

Also, we do, in fact, have some top-notch players in here. I'm no scrub, but I struggle to consistently perform in the top 20% - 30% of -MS- when we get into tryhard mode. There's at least 70 - 100 people in here that will absolutely ruin your day if you meet them in solo queue.

So, success in CW isn't just about assembling a mass of bodies. A unit does need to have a reputation for performing well and attract people who want to improve their game in addition to hanging out with friends (which is still the chief reason we get together). That's the challenging part. Not just growing a roster to 400+.

If you want to knock us down a peg in CW, take the above to heart and go build your unit. We look forward to seeing you out there.

As a member of SRoT, I can agree with the difficulty of gathering and keeping active groups dropping in. During the first Tukayyid event we had maybe 4 or 5 12 mans going at a time. This time around I saw 1 or 2 full 12 mans dropping at once, and maybe a 3rd earlier on Saturday. There just weren't enough of the active players coming into teamspeak or, just ones that went solo (or didnt bother with FW). In addition, you also have the players that participate in the FW drops during the event, but after they completed the challenges, they stopped. You could really see the effect of this on Sunday later in the evening and this was a big impact to who was left to actually keep contesting the planet.

[Dawnstealer]

Araevin Teshurr, on 07 December 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

When the new comers from steam find out that they can all pile on the winning faction side of the week as mercenaries, this game will be even more lopsided and broken than it is right now.

1. Make all contract pay equal, remove any advantage.
2. Limit the number of players in the game that can be clan or inner sphere, to keep them balanced. Limit Mercenary units to a fraction of those numbers, as mercenary units should never outnumber house units - that is ridiculous.
3. Make the time required to change a contract or faction take one week, and only allow a faction change once a month.
4. Ensure that contracts stick to players, even if they leave a unit, so that units can't easily reform under another unit for a new contract.
5. Input time to move requirements for units. If a unit is an spot A, and they want to fight on a planet X light years away, it must take them X number of days to get there, and they have to pay for the cost of transport. This will ensure that an IS Merc unit can not just pick a spot on the other side of the galaxy, and hop into a Clan Merc contract the next day, because that is ********.
6. Lastly, put an end to the moronic idea that Clans would hire Innersphere Mercenary units at all, it makes zero sense.

Best of luck to the Devs who work hard at trying to fix this unbalanced and nonsensical game.

I'd go the other way: rewards ramp up the longer you're with a faction and then drop through the floor when you leave. If a merc unit goes to historic factional allies, maybe the hit's a little less (Davion to Steiner, Marik to Liao, Kurita to...well...). If the unit goes to a historic enemy (Davion to Kurita), then the hit's more severe. If they pop from IS to Clan or back...

Actually, merc units going Clan should take a huge hit since the Clans didn't use mercs.

[RandomStatic]

Congrats to you guys for the win, I think one of the pug groups I was in managed to beat one of your leftovers pug groups....or nearly beat, I don't remember but you guys were more fun to play against than the kcom construction crew.....not fun being steam rolled on every time haha

[maniacos]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 December 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Found other 2

People really make screenshots of all their wins?

[STEF_]

Jherek C, on 08 December 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

People really make screenshots of all their wins?

Nope

[LeeNTien]

Done only 35 drops (who invented work on weekends?! T_T ) with the 77th (EU) sub-group of MS, not a single loss. \o/

More than half of the drops were pug or small-groups stomps, but we also had met some of the very able 12-teams, such as TCAF, HHoD, -S0-, 12DG, SRoT, -TJ- and BT (the top event-participating units of IS - no way I'd remember every and each team we've met), although we did have to dunk it a couple of times, especially on Sunday, when we decided to field somewhat lighter decks for funzies ^__^

Would love to try it with IS, but clans were already outnumbered by quite a lot. =__=

Great fun, a lot of awesome opponents, saw the % on the planet go in favor of IS at least twice, thanks everybody, we salute you. o7

P.S. *pokes Opa and runs away*....

Edited by LeeNTien, 08 December 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[Hippogryph]

sycocys, on 07 December 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

It's not really that much of a surprise honestly, might have been more so if you guys won on the IS side where you might have run into more competitive matches rather than beating up on the poor seals.

Drop time was the decider for MercStar, as much as anything else. The Clans have the smaller player population, and the shorter Queues during the Tuk event.

We had a good relationship with Clan Wolf loyalists during Wave 2, and it was a good place for us to finish the Wave. We would have also been quite happy fighting with our friends among the FRR loyalist units, though.

Expect to see MercStar both IS and Clan in the next short while. The IS re-quirks and the upcoming Clan IIC mechs make both sides intriguing.

[UBCslayer]

Khereg, on 08 December 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

None taken, but just pulling together a large unit isn't enough to do what we did. Both SWOL and SRoT (and maybe a couple of others) are actually bigger units than -MS-. Laying it all out there, here's what it takes to dominate CW/Tukkayid:

1. Gather a large number of players (not as easy as it sounds)
2. Get those players to actually participate on a regular basis (also not as easy as it sounds)
3. Have those players have enough skill to win the vast majority of their matches (obviously not easy)

If you have a longer attention span, here's a little more detail on each.

1. Keeping a large group together isn't easy, especially if many of the players are above-average in skill. Good players can have big ego's and don't always like going along with the consensus of the group. Other larger, more competitive units have fractured over time in MWO. So far -MS- has held it together. I credit Tony and the other sub-unit leaders for keeping it interesting and fun w/o a lot of internal drama.

2. The grind is real. We saw a big drop off in CW participation over the course of Beta 2. Fortunately, many people came back for Tukkayid. Building a culture where dropping in on the TS is always a good time helps. I doubt -MS- has any advantage on that front, though. I'm sure most units are fun to participate in or they wouldn't exist.

3. This one gets interesting. I see -MS- consistently painted with two very broad (and off-target) brushes. We're either all seal-clubbing psycopathic tryhards, or we're completely unskilled scrubs who only win because we're in a group. The truth is more complex.

Contrary to some perceptions, -MS- is not a "casual" unit. We do have standards of performance we want our members to achieve. However, unlike a lot of other competitive units, we are willing to give almost anyone a chance to make the cut. Ask to join -MS- and we'll at least let you on the TS, put you in a group and see how you do. We'll also be getting to know you, because toxic personalities have a way of causing discord and ultimately fracturing of the group if allowed to persist (see #1).

However, our standards aren't crazy difficult to meet. We're not SJR or EmP and we're not trying to be. We understand the combination of factors that lead to CW success, so we try to be open to new members. We're willing to work with people to get them up to snuff, but if they won't listen to advice, won't try to improve their skills, or are a toxic presence in the room, their time with us will be somewhat brief. I would say that 30+% of the players in MWO have the raw skills to make it in -MS- if they wanted to put in the effort. That's totally pulled from my nether regions, but it's probably not that far off.

Also, we do, in fact, have some top-notch players in here. I'm no scrub, but I struggle to consistently perform in the top 20% - 30% of -MS- when we get into tryhard mode. There's at least 70 - 100 people in here that will absolutely ruin your day if you meet them in solo queue.

So, success in CW isn't just about assembling a mass of bodies. A unit does need to have a reputation for performing well and attract people who want to improve their game in addition to hanging out with friends (which is still the chief reason we get together). That's the challenging part. Not just growing a roster to 400+.

If you want to knock us down a peg in CW, take the above to heart and go build your unit. We look forward to seeing you out there.

Don`t have time to play MWO much anymore, let alone go on the forums, but I just signed on to say that Khereg pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. I haven`t been able to play for a few months, but made an effort to set aside some things in my personal life (full time teacher, father of 2, masters student and coach makes for little leisure time) for several hours on the weekend and drop with MS for the event. It was enjoyable as ever and I was welcomed back as if I had never left. Thanks for the drops guys... looking forward to CW phase 3 and blasting mechs with you guys again.

[Nephoros Sradac]

Great event, but now I have to scrape IS pilot residue off my boots

[Lucian Cain]

As LeeNTien stated a few posts above we did meet some really good 10-12 man units on the battlefield and had some very close matches and I as well did not lose a single battle during this event. I have to admit MS has alot of very good players and as a member of the 77th Grey Guards in MS we train very often and make sure every person takes the right mechs with the right builds.

We honored some 1v1's during the event which was very fun for both sides, and sometimes we just wanted to win quickly so we can fight the next match. So make no mistake, yes MS is big but we have some of the best players I've seen since the day this game launched. So I respect and give thanks to the people who took a loss with dignity.

Edited by Lucian Cain, 09 December 2015 - 12:11 AM.

[Ihasa]

PFC Carsten, on 08 December 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Mercstar got 20742 points, 6914 per day, 288,1 per hour or 144 per 30-minute continous match-up. With 63 zones (i.e. 63 concurrent battles) at Tukayyid, that's 2.286 points per match. Continuously, 72 hrs, straight, every match.
Awesome - in every single match at least 2 -MS- dropdecks, not representing the matches ending shy of 30 minutes of course, but still.


So i guess the "couple small groups" (apart from your 7 12-premades) were quite a few not only a couple and small maybe in relation to -MS- standards - so a couple dozen 8 or 10 premades?

Actually it's Wolf that got that many points. -MS- and all other units' scores are not displayed this time. So math again please.

[Ihasa]

Dino Might, on 08 December 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

There is something to be said for that - lots of work behind the scenes to keep everyone together and working toward a common goal. For events like this, it is much easier, because the rewards are given to every participating member and not divvied out from a limited pool.

Still, considering I am in one of the larger units that played IS this event, we still only had at most two 12-mans at any one time, and that only happened once by my knowledge.

Credit where credit is due - MS leadership is excellent at managing a huge unit and getting the leaders of each subunit to work together well. It's sort of like Ancient Egypt "spheres of influence" governance. Highly effective for a large conglomeration with limited coordination capability (due to game mechanics and UI).

Personally, I would like to see large reward pools that are given to the units to divy up amongst members how they see fit - I think that would get more members of each unit participating and not further entice the conglomeration of units for events like this. My question to MS is, how many units joined you just prior to this event and then left right after? It's not unusual, and I'm not knocking your decision if you let these guys in temporarily to bolster numbers (heck, this is mercenary outfit SOP), but my question is to them - why would you go to the trouble just to get on the winning team when the reward is...nothing?

No new units joined -MS- for the event. We haven't had a new unit in a couple months now. We did however have like 50 or more new potential recruits. Whether they stay or not now depends on them applying and passing the recruiting requirements and being active. Now how many units went Wolf with us? That's another question and the more likely scenario, but I only know of one. I believe the rest on the Wolf leaderboard are all loyalist units.

Edited by Ihasa, 09 December 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[maniacos]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Nope

Well that's not really a MS. But I was just wondering about all the screens...

[Xavier]

Jherek C, on 09 December 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

Well that's not really a MS. But I was just wondering about all the screens...

To answer your question completely....Yes in MS it is the responsibility of the DC to take a screenshot of the end of every match that was not a (dunked match-a match that ended early because we killed the generator). We use these screenshots to track player performance numbers and compile per pilot averages. So to answer your question yes we do screenshot all of these matches and we use the empirical data to evaluate our pilots on am average match basis.

[DaFrog]

Hey MS, nIn !

[Kin3ticX]

Kurorahk, on 08 December 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Eh, honestly the issue is more of IS has too many players compared to clans. New Players see the price tag of clan mechs and go IS which is bad.

After everything the cost is close but Clans still cost slightly more. Its within 10-15 mil.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 09 December 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Murphy7]

Clan mechs are a bit more expensive up front, but once you are at the point of loading up on modules and getting your drop deck together, it's almost a wash.

I do think CW lends itself to many of the strengths of the clan mechs.

* Fixed engine ratings make coordinated movement a bit easier (very slight advantage, and negligible amongst good pilots)
* Half weight missile racks make missiles more opportunity-cost effective for Clans. (Slight advantage, situational)
* Omni pod & general range advantage. I put these together because it is very true that certain IS mechs with quirks have a range advantage on Clan mechs in general, but I really do think that needs to be balanced against the fact that Clan mechs do no need to choose between optimal quirk loadout or ECM - they can do both relatively easily. Hellbringers, Shadow Cats, and Arctic Cheetahs specifically are both common and ensure a great deal of ECM availability. Inner Sphere is about the forced choice - and in this case I think the ECM nerf hurt the IS more than the Clans with respect to CW. ECM nerf still had to happen, and in flavor of the game I think this actually brings the Clan/IS conflict closer to the lore, so that's actually a cool effect from my perspective.

* Changes to CW pretty much eliminate the light rush, which is mostly a good thing. Prior to the advent of the ACH, the Inner Sphere held a marked advantage in light mech class, where clans held strong advantages in the Assault and Medium classes, with the Heavies being wash between strong Clan designs and well quirked Inner Sphere options. ACH pretty well brings Clan and IS to parity in the light mech class, and since the rush isn't really as viable I think it's a wash between IS and Clan.

* Long sight lines on maps make ranged trading a strong tactic. Ranged trading will generally favor the clans, though a quirk optimized drop deck from IS for this specific tactic can be stronger in the short term. This where coordination wins all. Even skill and coordination, it's a wash - a well coordinated IS quirk drop will clean up on an unready organized clan drop or against a skittles clan defense. Same token, an organized brawling IS drop will be in for a potential opening 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan if they aren't very good with terrain.

A lot of these advantages are generally slight so they might play a factor in the midrange of skill and coordination levels, but I doubt it matters for a skittle on skittle contest nor for well coordinated groups squaring off against one another.

[Necromantion]

Araevin Teshurr, on 07 December 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

When the new comers from steam find out that they can all pile on the winning faction side of the week as mercenaries, this game will be even more lopsided and broken than it is right now.

1. Make all contract pay equal, remove any advantage.
2. Limit the number of players in the game that can be clan or inner sphere, to keep them balanced. Limit Mercenary units to a fraction of those numbers, as mercenary units should never outnumber house units - that is ridiculous.
3. Make the time required to change a contract or faction take one week, and only allow a faction change once a month.
4. Ensure that contracts stick to players, even if they leave a unit, so that units can't easily reform under another unit for a new contract.
5. Input time to move requirements for units. If a unit is an spot A, and they want to fight on a planet X light years away, it must take them X number of days to get there, and they have to pay for the cost of transport. This will ensure that an IS Merc unit can not just pick a spot on the other side of the galaxy, and hop into a Clan Merc contract the next day, because that is ********.
6. Lastly, put an end to the moronic idea that Clans would hire Innersphere Mercenary units at all, it makes zero sense.

Best of luck to the Devs who work hard at trying to fix this unbalanced and nonsensical game.

1) Solid incentives should be given to play under-represented factions for a short period of time and adjusted frequently
2) 1 would take care of this
3) Depends on how 1 is implemented
4) Nobody would do that at least in a large unit which is apparently what you see as a problem
5) No, or do you want to cry about ghost drops more?
6) In light of #1 and 2 and people having mechs of both types and this NOT being an RPG game this would be moronic.

Think before you post

sycocys, on 07 December 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

It's not really that much of a surprise honestly, might have been more so if you guys won on the IS side where you might have run into more competitive matches rather than beating up on the poor seals.

It would have been the same, you should know this by now if not go clan when were IS and hop on our ts and we can drop against you if you like OR maybe tony will have us go IS next major faction contest and once again it will happen all over.

FallingAce, on 07 December 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

The biggest group won

<sarcasm>
yipee
hooray
3 cheers
</sarcasm>

Youre an idiot.

sycocys, on 08 December 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Did you screen cap the dozens of games against IS skittles that were no doubt 48-12 or less?

Not saying it would have been a lot different against their clan counterparts (though the clan skittles tend to be 4-5 times as skilled as the IS ones) but that you would have faced stiffer competition from more likely dropping against good units.

Also not knocking you for your choice, it was driven by piss poor event design - just pointing out that a lot of your unit score is hyper inflated from playing against terrible pug players.

This happens for us on both factions.

Jherek C, on 08 December 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

People really make screenshots of all their wins?

It started because of people whining that we aim to fight pugs and thats apparently the only way we achieve anything.

Edited by Necromantion, 10 December 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Tywren]

This **** right here is why units need to be capped at 50 people.

[Necromantion]

Tywren, on 11 December 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

This **** right here is why units need to be capped at 50 people.

And why is that? You realize MS is not even near the largest unit in the game right? You realize there are 1-2 units that are so large they have secondary units right?

Youre just another butthurt whiner lacking the ability to view anything that isnt self serving with any kind of logic or rationality. Go away.

Edited by Necromantion, 11 December 2015 - 10:44 AM.