56 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Lugh, on 08 December 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

You couldn't be more wrong. Zombie mode is a thing. AND there is a huge difference in being able to sacrifice a side without losing most of your firepower / mobility as well. I've had my BHII mech lose the AC20 on the left side (a significant source of firepower) and continue on with 3-5 MLs and still end up around 500 damage. So there is that (a crit that is big enough to kill an AC20 is big enough to pop an XL ST)... so yeah...

The only way to lose an XL ST is to have the ST destroyed (engine criticals are not in MWO). On the other hand, AC20s are incredibly vulnerable to crits since they take up so many slots. It is easy to destroy the AC20 even when the ST will require 40 more damage to take out an XL engine (some of the MADs have decent ST structure quirks).

IS XL engines can be risky but worthwhile depending on the build when used to get more mobility. I am less of a fan of IS XL when used to increase the weapon loadout since they tend to be slower which usually means they don't get to dictate engagement range.


P.S. I have usually heard zombie mode used to refer to mechs that have lost both side torsos but retain some weaponry. Cents, HBK, some Stalkers and other have head and CT weapon hardpoints so they can continue fighting even with both ST destroyed.

Edited by Mawai, 08 December 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Barantor]

Every time I called the shots with a group of IS pugs against Clan pugs in that last event we let them get close in and then surrounded them and won with a brawl.

Many reasons for this, at least with Clan puggers.

1. They tend to peek and poke, and with high alpha builds they win that match-up, so you have to close.

2. The bad clanners alpha in brawl and then overheat and try to escape. Then die to the horde of IS.

3. Because of peek and poke, they seem to front-load armor values and their backsides are very juicy.

We would lure them into a position in which they thought they had advantage and then attack from multiple sides before they got set up in their corner poking positions. Usually the last one alive would be a cheetah that was going everywhere till legged or a Shadowcat that jumped up on something high to hide and poke.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Because UAC-10 & 20 jam alot.
Because LB10x/20x don't crit like they should.
Because Flamers and MG's are still not where they should be.
Because SRM's are still a massive gamble between aiming and wonky hitreg.
Because while SPL are nice, you need alot of them, and they force you into super close range where you die just as fast as your enemy.
And now with sloppy unresponsive Acceleration/Deceleration, brawling just got alot harder.

Edited by Mister D, 08 December 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

In the PUB Queue, CUAC10s are really, really, really nasty to run into. But as said elsewhere, CW is a different animal with a different goal: you better help your team with long-range laser vomit more often than not.

[Brizna]

As an officer of the Legio IX Hispana, merc company on faction rotating duty, I can say we brawl regardless of us being in IS or clans, WE FIGHT TO DEATH OR VICTORY, BUT WE BRAWL.

This event we are in clan wolf and we brawled to sixth place in wolf ladder no problem, of course anything with longer reach than cMPLAS is forbidden!!

[Commander A9]

I still brawl with my Timber Wolf; it ends up getting close anyway.

God, I wish I had hands to punch some Black Knight right in the chest!

[ColdPsyker1]

Black Fish, on 08 December 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Just for the record I'm going to get into Clans with this Shadowcat I hope it wont suck that bad

My favorite loadout in the game is essentially that build, but I usually go with another laser in the right torso (and more heat sinks)

It's not a pure brawler like a hunchback, it is more skirmisher/harasser/brawler. Proper use of masc and jump jets allow you to spread damage like no ones business (I think the lowest I've gotten in a shadowcat is 18%health, with only one arm gone

But yeah, anyone who says clans can't brawl is welcome to come fight me and my cat

[Koniks]

Mordin Ashe, on 08 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Clans don't brawl? Several reasons for that:

First, heat. Clan weapons are incredibly hot and when you overheat in a brawl you are dead...

Second, heat is important because clan Mechs can boat laser weapons or missiles and both need a lot of cooling. Boating ballistics is a no-no because they aren't quirked and unquirked ACs suck even for IS and Gausses are bad choice after nerf...

Third, I would also argue that UACs are great for brawling. They are terrible...

Fourth, beam duration...

Fifth, no quirks for Clan Mechs...

In theory you can make a Mech with many CERSLs and UAC20 and, on paper, have a king of brawlers. In practise any reasonable enemy would pick you apart from 300-500m distance. You would struggle even with those few lone enemies you can ambush because damage from your weapons is unreliable.

Your last point is somewhat relevant. A lone brawler isn't effective. They'll get focused down when lots of enemy mechs can hit them while the brawler's team doesn't have LOS. A team of brawlers can absorb the damage and then out-DPS mid-range mechs. You just rarely find that level of organization and trust in PUG drops.

Your other points aren't accurate. Clans get to their heatcap somewhat faster than the IS, although not that much faster than they used to. Their cap was reduced basically by 1 weapon per alpha. The dissipation rate just means you have to wait a marginal amount of time before firing the last alpha. It's not a big DPS hit. And once the IS and Clans are at heatcap, Clan dissipation rate gives them a DPS advantage. So the longer a match goes with constant engagement, the greater the advantage the Clans have.

Clans can build heat neutral SRM builds with laser backups for finishing. And, for example, the 12xSPL and 12xERSL both can deliver 180 points of hitscan damage before shutdown which is pretty good sustained DPS. Beam duration on those weapons at their optimal range is less of a problem than medium and large weapon beam optimal beam duration. The Nova did get positive quirks. And really, quirks aren't the reason Clans don't brawl.

I believe Solahma ran the numbers on UACs. They're very effective.

[Aresye]

Black Fish, on 08 December 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Just a quick FYI, now with the Clan XL nerf, losing a ST basically downgrade you to a STD engine (375->300, 330->265 etc.) so saying STD engines are more durable than Clan XL is plain wrong since you start with a way bigger engine you would have if you had a STD in the first place, and when if you lose both ST most chances are you are already useless (cmon, how many 'zombie' 'Mechs are actually useful)

Don't forget Clans also have a heat penalty when they lose a ST due to the loss of engine heat sinks. This works against Clan brawling for 2 reasons:

1. If a Clan mech is running a symmetrical setup, despite them losing half their weapons and common sense dictating that half "weapons = half heat = no difference in the end," the truth of the matter is we're talking about the loss of "engine heat sinks," or (in other words), the loss of TrueDubs. A perfectly symmetrical Clan mech that gets its side torso blown off will run hotter and have more trouble dissipating heat than before, because of the loss of TrueDubs.

2. Brawling necessitates asymmetrical loadouts, so the issue in #1 is compounded by the fact that any Clan mech brawling is "very likely" to lose the torso on its shield side, so they end up keeping all their weapons but losing TrueDubs, making for a very hot situation, especially if any lasers are involved in the brawling build.

In a TDR-5SS I can lose any side and not have any noticeable impact on heat or DPS beyond the loss of weapons and external (non-TrueDub) heat sinks on that side.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I find my best brawl mechs to be:

• FS9-A
  
• SRM bomber crow
  
• TBR-S w/ 4ASRM6
  
• AS7-S

Are there plenty of strong contenders for those slots? Hell yeah, the HBK-4SP and GRF-3M are nasty SRM mediums. And don't forget the renewed BoomJack or the the HBK-4G.

The Cheeto is still super nasty, I just find that for light mech knife fights the FS9-A is superior. And then there is the Oxide as a nice BnZ light.

For heavies, the TDR-5SS is solid still, but I feel that the Black Knight edges is out slightly after the Thud nerfs. The SRM bomber Summoner is pretty deadly too, and don't forget the 7SPL/Gauss Swaguar.

For Clan brawling on assaults, the Warhawk is kinda-sorta okayish, but the IS definitely have the top brawler assaults with the Victors, Atlai, King Crabs, Stalkers, and Wubshee.

I mean, it's like the people here don't even try to mechlab but just piss and moan about "waahhhhh, Clams have better lazors", "waaahhhhh IS has better ACs," "waaahhhh <insert OP IS mech>," "waaahhhh <insert OP Clam mech>"

[Hellcat420]

because clan mechs are better at range than brawl, even more so now with the stupid agility nerfs.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

um idk cuz brawling leaves you alone while your whole team hides behind cover in the pug que

oh and lets not forget those atlas's i mean your gonna win that one right?

[Kaeb Odellas]

I think this is supported in the lore. IIRC, Clanners have always favored long range fighting over close brawls.

[Vxheous]

Lugh, on 08 December 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

So I am again going to ask, why not do both?

You need long range poke so you take 2 c-LPL, then for the short range stuff do 6 c er sl or c-spl....

Best of both worlds.

Pairing ERMLs with LPL is usually the best min/max in terms of mid range damage. It's simply not as efficient to pair long range with short range with the way the game works.

[Deathlike]

People are underestimating the value of Clan Small Lasers and Clan Small Pulse, when most people expect Clans trying to use their naturally better ranging lasers (even despite ghost heat)... assuming you bother to use their overall speed advantage (before losing a side torso).

[Crotch RockIt]

Deathlike, on 08 December 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

People are underestimating the value of Clan Small Lasers and Clan Small Pulse, when most people expect Clans trying to use their naturally better ranging lasers (even despite ghost heat)... assuming you bother to use their overall speed advantage (before losing a side torso).

Indeed. 9xCSPL Brawlcrow says hi.

[Naelbis]

The one counterattack win my various pickup teams had in the event was on Sulfurous Ridge. We were on the Steiner TS hub but a complete mix of units against a mixed clan drop from about 3 units. We brought our big boys, rolled in the left gate and stayed under cover as much as possible until we reached the open around Omega. The Clanners were spread out a bit but set up to play the poke and hide game. I convinced the whole team to keep moving and we closed to knife range while trading alphas, then we crushed them in the brawl. We ended up winning like 48-18 by getting in close and brawling it out with better heat efficiency, they just couldn't sustain the fire needed to kill us without shutting down. Every counterattack loss after that was because we either couldn't close in (Boreal Vault) or we didn't push in hard enough and lost the trade game.