254 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 10 December 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

I actually don't want to unlock Omnimech engines and equipment. I like the ability to swap hardpoints in comparison to the Battlemech ability to swap equipment.

That said, I would be very much in favor of some further tech changes.

#1:
I'd like to see standard armor and structure more durable than FF or ES

#2:
This one is a little out there. I'd reduce the crit space for IS endo-steel and ferro-fibrous to 10.

#3:
I'd like to see certain Omnimechs revisited for their equipment. For example, that Summoner; no amount of quirking seems to compensate for no ES. Love the maneuverability, locked JJs fine. Standard structure?! Ack, no weight for stuff!

#4:
All lasers returned to their original damage curves, with slight further tweaks to Clan heat generation (that is, I want Clans to run even a bit hotter but with still slightly more dissipation; I don't think the changes went quite far enough).

Other changes I'd like to see are across techlines.

While i agree with almost everything you are saying, i disagree that the choices Omnimechs currently get (hardpoint swapping) are anything like as valuable as being able to fine tune engine size, having dynamic endo and ferro crit placement and being able to select minimum numbers of DHS, largely because the hardpoint inflation given to Battlemechs means they often don't NEED more hardpoints - see the 8E Hunchie for example, how would Omnitech even help that mech?

Given no change to that paradigm i am certain that Omnis will be removed from any kind of competitive use by the time we get a few more IICs, which i am sure wont take very long. I already think that the Orion is going to be arguably better than the Timberwolf (certainly at ballistic builds), and its got crap hardpoints.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 December 2015 - 01:39 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Perhaps give Omnis something like very limited engine swapping. Like maybe +15 or -15 points in rating. And give them the ability to add Endo or FF, though with only 2/3 the weight savings of a mech that gets FF or Endo stock. And FF and Endo crits are locked to specific places.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 December 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

Perhaps give Omnis something like very limited engine swapping. Like maybe +15 or -15 points in rating. And give them the ability to add Endo or FF, though with only 2/3 the weight savings of a mech that gets FF or Endo stock. And FF and Endo crits are locked to specific places.

So, you mean still completely inferior to Clan Battlemechs then? Gotcha. Anything short of a complete unlock on ES/FF/DHS isnt going to cut it.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 December 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 December 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

So, you mean still completely inferior to Clan Battlemechs then? Gotcha. Anything short of a complete unlock on ES/FF/DHS isnt going to cut it.

Omnis still have the benefit of swapping out omnipods. Give every omnipod an interesting quirk and they'll be fine.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 December 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Omnis still have the benefit of swapping out omnipods. Give every omnipod an interesting quirk and they'll be fine.

Which is only a very minor benefit considering Omnis get zero hardpoint inflation and battlemechs always get some. Its mainly only useful for reducing numbers of crap useless variants, which isnt an actual ingame advantage.

Sure, quirks. Always best to use quirks to balance all of an entire class of mech when you could just buff a couple of stats.

[CDLord HHGD]

Clan XLs are supposed to be better. Stick with the "lose a torso, you die" mechanic, but maybe give IS XLs more HPs?

[Almond Brown]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

Clan XLs are supposed to be better. Stick with the "lose a torso, you die" mechanic, but maybe give IS XLs more HPs?

We don't kill the Engine, just a single Torso containing enough Crit slots (3) for I.S. Since many I.S. Mechs have recently gotten ST Internal Structure "buffs" which amount to the same thing.

How big a Buff will never be agreed upon as anyone who dies to a single ST when driving an I.S. XL will always feel cheated vs the Clan response to the same ST lose.

So unless the 2 XL's are made absolutely "identical", the complaints will always remain. That is the sad reality of any system where asymmetry is attempted but can never please some who always see that they are getting screwed over vs the other guys Tech, despite being different, all they see is it is "WAY F'ing BETTER!"

Besides, if the Clan XL "whiners" do Win this one, what do you think will get marginalized/equalized next?

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 December 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Almond Brown, on 11 December 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

We don't kill the Engine, just a single Torso containing enough Crit slots (3) for I.S. Since many I.S. Mechs have recently gotten ST Internal Structure "buffs" which amount to the same thing.

How big a Buff will never be agreed upon as anyone who dies to a single ST when driving an I.S. XL will always feel cheated vs the Clan response to the same ST lose.

So unless the 2 XL's are made absolutely "identical", the complaints will always remain. That is the sad reality of any system where asymmetry is attempted but can never please some who always see that they are getting screwed over vs the other guys Tech, despite being different, all they see is it is "WAY F'ing BETTER!"

Besides, if the Clan XL "whiners" do Win this one, what do you think will get marginalized/equalized next?

Look. It's in the Lore. Clan XLs are more resilient and can survive a ST loss whereas IS XLs are not. Clans ARE more technologically advanced than the IS. I play IS and many of my rigs have XLs. I don't whine about it because: A-I'm an adult, B-I know this is the way its supposed to be.

One reason why the Clans do not need more mechs in this timeline, they have the more advanced, lean and mean lineup. Hell, Clans aren't even supposed to have normal ACs. UACs or LBX or bust. How many more concessions do we have to make before this isn't Mechwarrior anymore?

TL:DR Suck it up buttercup.

[Kaeb Odellas]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Look. It's in the Lore. Clan XLs are more resilient and can survive a ST loss whereas IS XLs are not. Clans ARE more technologically advanced than the IS. I play IS and many of my rigs have XLs. I don't whine about it because: A-I'm an adult, B-I know this is the way its supposed to be.

One reason why the Clans do not need more mechs in this timeline, they have the more advanced, lean and mean lineup. Hell, Clans aren't even supposed to have normal ACs. UACs or LBX or bust. How many more concessions do we have to make before this isn't Mechwarrior anymore?

TL:DR Suck it up buttercup.

The "Clan AC" weapons we have are just PGI's half-assed attempt to get an equivalent for LBX slug ammo, only they didn't go all the way with it and basically just made them inferior UACs. You may as well pretend they don't exist, since no one uses them.

And "suck it up" is a piss-poor response to make to people trying to improve balance, which this game desperately needs.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 11 December 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

The "Clan AC" weapons we have are just PGI's half-assed attempt to get an equivalent for LBX slug ammo, only they didn't go all the way with it and basically just made them inferior UACs. You may as well pretend they don't exist, since no one uses them.

And "suck it up" is a piss-poor response to make to people trying to improve balance, which this game desperately needs.

Making everything ubiquitous is not balance and is not Mechwarrior. Clans =/= IS, if they were, they'd just be more Great Houses.

You want balance? Get rid of the mechlab. Yes, I said it. Make Ballistics, Energy, Missiles have a rock, paper, scissor balance WITHIN TECH (Separate Clans and IS). Then understand that the Clans are supposed to be more powerful, but fewer.

Then CONVINCE PGI that they need to develop the skillset and mechanics to account for that superiority. Every two clan mechs is worth 3 IS mechs. Yes, it can be done. Yes the population can handle it.

I have been playing a lot of WoWS lately and that MM matches ship for ship. I know that wouldn't work in MWO, but there are other alternatives to consider. Developer skillset be damned.

[Kaeb Odellas]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Making everything ubiquitous is not balance and is not Mechwarrior. Clans =/= IS, if they were, they'd just be more Great Houses.

You want balance? Get rid of the mechlab. Yes, I said it. Make Ballistics, Energy, Missiles have a rock, paper, scissor balance WITHIN TECH (Separate Clans and IS). Then understand that the Clans are supposed to be more powerful, but fewer.

Then CONVINCE PGI that they need to develop the skillset and mechanics to account for that superiority. Every two clan mechs is worth 3 IS mechs. Yes, it can be done. Yes the population can handle it.

I have been playing a lot of WoWS lately and that MM matches ship for ship. I know that wouldn't work in MWO, but there are other alternatives to consider. Developer skillset be damned.

You're a crazy person. Getting rid of the mechlab removes a huge portion of what makes this game interesting. No one would support this. Ever.

And like it or not, 1:1 IS vs Clan balance is the path PGI has decided on. There is no reason "more technologically advanced" has to mean "superior in every way".

[CDLord HHGD]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 December 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

You're a crazy person. Getting rid of the mechlab removes a huge portion of what makes this game interesting. No one would support this. Ever.

And like it or not, 1:1 IS vs Clan balance is the path PGI has decided on. There is no reason "more technologically advanced" has to mean "superior in every way".

Well, I have never claimed to be sane. Just don't go around saying you're playing Mechwarrior, cause you're not. You're playing Generic Battlebots. It comes to this and many people will leave or stop spending money. Like it or not, many of us "whales" are lore enthusiasts.

[FupDup]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, I have never claimed to be sane. Just don't go around saying you're playing Mechwarrior, cause you're not. You're playing Generic Battlebots. It comes to this and many people will leave or stop spending money. Like it or not, many of us "whales" are lore enthusiasts.

The ironic part of your comment is that the in-depth customization system is one of the primary differences between the Mechwarrior PC game series and every other giant robot game. It's one of the factors that make this franchise really stand out from its competition.

For example, Mechassault, the Xbox game that BT fans really hate, had zero customization beyond changing your player colors. Hawken, another game that a lot of "hardcore" fans don't like, does have some customization but with far fewer options (e.g. each mech can only choose from about 3-4 predetermined weapons, with 2 equipped at a time).

[CDLord HHGD]

FupDup, on 11 December 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

The ironic part of your comment is that the in-depth customization system is one of the primary differences between the Mechwarrior PC game series and every other giant robot game. It's one of the factors that make this franchise really stand out from its competition.

For example, Mechassault, the Xbox game that BT fans really hate, had zero customization beyond changing your player colors. Hawken, another game that a lot of "hardcore" fans don't like, does have some customization but with far fewer options (e.g. each mech can only choose from about 3-4 predetermined weapons, with 2 equipped at a time).

I just don't see much spirit of Battletech/Mechwarrior in 6 PPC stalkers and other meta-builds. I like the mechlab, I do, but they gave us the rope and we are hanging ourselves with it. We need further restrictions on toning down the extreme meta builds. I understand there will always be a meta, but it doesn't have to be this extreme.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 December 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

You're a crazy person. Getting rid of the mechlab removes a huge portion of what makes this game interesting. No one would support this. Ever.

And like it or not, 1:1 IS vs Clan balance is the path PGI has decided on. There is no reason "more technologically advanced" has to mean "superior in every way".

MWO will never ever achieve full 1:1 balance -- and let us not kid ourselves because there seem to be many who want nothing less -- unless Clan Mechs and equipment are just re-skinned versions of IS ones, differing only in shape, color, and sounds effects. And that is not Mechwarrior nor Battletech.

Edited by Mystere, 11 December 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 11 December 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

We don't kill the Engine, just a single Torso containing enough Crit slots (3) for I.S. Since many I.S. Mechs have recently gotten ST Internal Structure "buffs" which amount to the same thing.

How big a Buff will never be agreed upon as anyone who dies to a single ST when driving an I.S. XL will always feel cheated vs the Clan response to the same ST lose.

So unless the 2 XL's are made absolutely "identical", the complaints will always remain. That is the sad reality of any system where asymmetry is attempted but can never please some who always see that they are getting screwed over vs the other guys Tech, despite being different, all they see is it is "WAY F'ing BETTER!"

Besides, if the Clan XL "whiners" do Win this one, what do you think will get marginalized/equalized next?

The solution to balancing a game based on an IP that is inherently asymmetric is to use an asymmetric balancing system, not harmonization. Otherwise, just drop the ******* IP and build an original one.

[Kaeb Odellas]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, I have never claimed to be sane. Just don't go around saying you're playing Mechwarrior, cause you're not. You're playing Generic Battlebots. It comes to this and many people will leave or stop spending money. Like it or not, many of us "whales" are lore enthusiasts.

Mystere, on 11 December 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

MWO will never ever achieve full 1:1 balance -- and let us not kid ourselves because there seem to be many who want nothing less -- unless Clan Mechs and equipment are just re-skinned versions of IS ones, differing only in shape, color, and sounds effects. And that is not Mechwarrior nor Battletech.

No one here is the grand arbiter of what makes a game a "Mechwarrior" game. MW4 was a huge departure from previous games and the tabletop game with its mech customization system, and people still consider it a Mechwarrior game. In order for a multiplayer-focused game to be successful, it needs balanced gameplay. Since this game features a faction-based warfare with faction-restricted mechs and equipment and was designed to be played with equal numbers of mechs on each side, it follows that both factions must be balanced against one another.

And both sides need not be identical. PGI just needs to make sure that each side's strengths and weaknesses balance out. It will probably be impossible to get this balance perfect, but that's not a reason not to try.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 11 December 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[AssaultPig]

I think things are balanced pretty well now, aside from the engine issue. If engines reached parity I think IS would be better even with substantially reduced quirks.

In general people are way too invested in the specific ruleset as the embodiment of what 'battletech' is. The specifics of how engines and so on work is just... unimportant, aside from for specific gameplay balance.

[FupDup]

cdlord, on 11 December 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

I just don't see much spirit of Battletech/Mechwarrior in 6 PPC stalkers and other meta-builds. I like the mechlab, I do, but they gave us the rope and we are hanging ourselves with it. We need further restrictions on toning down the extreme meta builds. I understand there will always be a meta, but it doesn't have to be this extreme.

The 6 PPC variant was more of a joke build than anything, like a poor man's version of the Direstar. The real nasty one was the 4 PPC version, because it could keep firing a lot longer...

In terms of meta builds, the import thing to remember is that a number of stock mechs actually DO come right out of the box this way. The Devastator, Thunder Hawk, Hellstar, Bane, Awesome, Nightstar, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Night Gyr, Blood Asp, any many more than I'm too lazy to list are built to meta right out of the box with few or no modifications required.

Stock mechs ultimately were never intended to be balanced against each other. Some stock mechs were better than others, either by deliberate developer choice or by accident. Many stock variants exist for the sole purpose of being more effective than previous variants, usually by adding new tech items or correcting design flaws from previous designs (e.g. removing crappy weapons and replacing with good weapons).

Compare the Shadow Hawk 2H against the 5M, for instance.
SHD-2H
SHD-5M
The second one is clearly an upgrade over the first one in every way except for costing more C-Bills to purchase.

You could maybe argue for the customization to revolve around a broad interpretation of a mech's role rather than the extremes of stock only or MW3's system of doing whatever the eff you want, but there should always be a good level of mech modification because it's one of the cornerstones that makes MW different from most other robot games (or most other games period).

Edited by FupDup, 11 December 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

And you're all acting like assymetrical numbers is some kind of magic bullet to make this game balanced. PGI would still have to work to make 12 IS mechs equal 10 Clan mechs, or whatever it is you're arguing for. That would still be very hard! Probably harder than 1:1, I'd wager.