95 replies to this topic

[joemomma]

Since Urban Combat is supposed to be a big thing in this game I think that they could have some differences between ballistic and energy weapons to make them interesting.

Say ballistic weapons travel on an arc, but they also have more penetration against terrain. Lasers (that aren't pulse lasers) just scorch or melt the wall the mech is hiding behind, ballistic weapons have a chance to penetrate and do damage (yes, Modern Warfare style "penetration kills" would be nice). They could also theoretically arc over the horizon, but that would be more dumb luck than anything else.

Lasers hit instantly, so no worries about leading the target or distance. On the other hand they get disrupted by passing through dust or smoke and don't do as much damage.

This could kind of balance out lasers and projectiles as "easier to hit with" vs "potentially more flexible and tactically useful". Kind of sounds like projectiles would be the go-to option here, but since everyone says lasers are the best choice right now it might be cool to mix it up some.

[ExAstris]

Zakatak, on 05 December 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

That said, if we boosted damage/reload/tonnage of ballistics, we could do this. Give each projectile a drop rate of 10m/s (adjustments for world gravity)

AC/2 - 750m/s
UAC/20 - 500m/s
MG - 625m/s
Heavy Gauss - 1500m/s
Light Gauss - 2500m/s
Longtom Artillery - 350m/s
Sniper Artillery - 1000m/s

So a UAC/20 would drop 10m in 500m (which should be its maximum range)

Actually, given your numbers it would drop 5m, not 10m (assuming no air resistance).
1/2at^2
where a = 10m/s/s and t = 1s.

I'm all for physics based balancing. There is no need to assume that ballistics will be worse than lasers if we add bullet drop or even bullet spread. The amount of spread, rate of flight/drop, and damage can all be given numerous mathematical ad hoc tweaks to maintain balance between weapons. It also gives us alot more variables to mess with to introduce weapon variety. For example, an AC-10 made by one manufacturer may have slightly different handling characteristics than one made by another manufacturer, but both be very similar in performance to the point that only a veteran user of the weapon would notice or appreciate the difference.

[jbone]

I think they should have realistic bullet arcs. However it's the 31'st century, with laser rangefinders that reticle would automatically adjust for the distance of whatever you have your sight on. Yes that means when you put a building in fronton you when you were aiming at a mech 200 metros away it's going to raise, does that mean multiple reticles base don your weapons loadout, it sure does.

If I know the range to target say 300 meters at my local range even shooting "over irons" i just slide the sight on my mauser up to 300, and the trajectory is already accounted for. look at the one warrior system as another example, it doesn't even need to have any manual adjustments for distance. Look at the a-10c upgrades, you mark it and it tells you where to nose the barrel to so your fire is right on target, and that's from a lot longer distance than 500 meters when that bad boy let's loose most of the time.

It's the 31st century, ranges for weapons systems may have dropped significantly something like WW1/WW2 effective ranges, but if I'm running around in a 10 meter tall walking tank plinking out with an AC/20 I think my targeting system is going to be able to adjust for distance on the fly.

On a side note, House Steiner just introduced a new version of it's signature protomech design, most people think it's time the Gryphon got a much needed upgrade, there is even talk that they are going to start upgrading it's battle armor, people think the commando is looking pretty promising.

[boogle]

I voted for ballistic arc, but with a few caveats. The drop on most rounds under standard gravitational conditions (9.8m/s^2) is going to be minimal. The maximum range for most combat is 1000 meters, with most ballistic combat occurring at much closer ranges. Does anyone know the muzzle velocities of the different autocannons and gauss rifles? If so I'd be interested in doing the math to figure out exactly how much we'd expect them to drop.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

People have been trying to use RL velocities from the calibre ranges quoted in Sarna http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon. Unfortunately it's not very useful as BTU AC's don't follow the trend for RL ballistic weapons where larger calibre direct fire weapons have longer ranges. The reverse happens in fact. I would imagine that it was purely for gameplay reasons and to give the Gauss Rifle a role as distinct from the AC20.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 07 February 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

People have been trying to use RL velocities from the calibre ranges quoted in Sarna http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon. Unfortunately it's not very useful as BTU AC's don't follow the trend for RL ballistic weapons where larger calibre direct fire weapons have longer ranges. The reverse happens in fact. I would imagine that it was purely for gameplay reasons and to give the Gauss Rifle a role as distinct from the AC20.

*chuckles to self*

Yeah... that's that I call "The Undiscussed." I just let it slide... it is a boardgame, after all.

The way I rationalize it is by imagining that we're dealing with ye ol' naval cannons where the AC/2 is like a long, slender brass cannon shooting small caliber balls, and the AC/20 is like a fat, stubby Carronade.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 07 February 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I don't try to rationalise it (much) anymore - it's just more BattleTechMagic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Looking at the Gameplay trailer in the Media section of the website... Did the AC/20 shots drop, or did they sail in a straight line? I think it may have been too short of a range to tell... but it kinda looks like they followed a perfect straight line.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 14 March 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Seemed to be straight and slow - i hope we get a range to practice on - I want to see what the drop off is after max range. At least we don't have the min range any more, presumably it also applies to the Gauss Rifle.

[Jakebob]

realistic ballistic arcs. If you have an advanced enough targeting computer (Clans, for example), the computer can compensate your aim point based on the range to target and type of projectile. With a less advanced computer (most Inner Sphere machines), you may have to rely on good old fashioned "Kentucky Windage"

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think the Devs mentioned that AC fire will be balanced partially with ballistic drop after reaching maximum weapon range... let me see if I can find it...
Here it is, from Developer/Community Answers 5:

"Will the ranges of the BattleMechs' weapons - and the relationships between them - be more similar to those from the BattleTech tabletop game (including, perhaps, some implementation of any of the minimum, short, medium, long, and extreme range brackets), or those from the previous MechWarrior computer games? –Strum Wealh

[DAVID] With minimum ranges, it depends on how justified we can be in putting them into the game without them being silly. For PPCs, there’s mentions in the lore about they don’t reach a full charge at close ranges so as not to damage the attacker’s own electronic systems. LRMs, being meant for long range, do not necessarily arm before they clear a certain distance. But it’s harder to justify why you can’t accurately fire an Autocannon/2 or Autocannon/5 up close, other than it was a balance to their long range in the tabletop game, so they won’t be affected by any sort of minimum range. The tabletop long ranges, on the other hand, we’re interpreting as the maximum effective range. Lasers, AC slugs, and whatnot will travel past this range, but will begin to do less and less damage, and the effects of gravity on any sort of physical projectile will make it harder to hit your target. Missiles reaching the limits of their range will automatically detonate."


I think that says that projectiles will fly in a fairly straight line until they reach max range, then experience an exaggerated ballistic drop 'till they hit the dirt.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 March 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I intend to check out how extreme the drop is as soon as beta launches.

[TaraNoa]

also the arc depends on the fired projectile's speed

can't wait to try it out in beta

Edited by TaraNoa, 18 March 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Eagyn]

The technology for automatic trajectory calculation and adjustment is already in military use today. You click a button and it automatically adjusts to hit a target at the laser range finders distance. I would assume that mechs have a similar / automatic adjustment in targeting with ballistic weapons.

I do agree that a form of ballistic drop would add a new aspect to combat, but it doesn't fit with keeping a battle mechs technology in mind.

Visuals that show ballistics dropping would be an interesting addition. I don't agree with making the mech warrior adjust for ballistic weapons due to the simplicity of the technology involved.

Edited by Eagyn, 18 March 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Cifu]

Emmm.... it's an another way to make the ballistic weapons weaker...

The energy weapons don't have ammo, so effectively can be fired until the end of the world. The ballistic weapons have limited ammo.
The energy weapons don't have ammo explosion, the ballistic weapons carry this drawback.

And now you imply the energy weapons have much better accuracy (it's straight, do not have problem with gravity), while with the ballistic weapons we need to watch how the ballistic arc work?

Well, i personally say: no.

If the ballistic weapons have ballistic arc, then the laser weapons beam need to be invisible (just as like real life -> like a laser pointer), and a thick smoke screen need to become an impenetrable obstacle for laser (just as real life), and when it's raining or snowing, the laser beam energy wanished at the range (try to use a laser rangefinder in rain or snow, and you understand ).

Edited by Cifu, 19 March 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Were talking about the drop off after normal max range, which has never beeen included before. It is effectively a flat trajectory up to max range (hypothesised from footage seen and comments made)

[Cifu]

Eagyn, on 18 March 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

The technology for automatic trajectory calculation and adjustment is already in military use today. You click a button and it automatically adjusts to hit a target at the laser range finders distance. I would assume that mechs have a similar / automatic adjustment in targeting with ballistic weapons.

A hundred year ago the Maxim machine gun has the effective range around 2000 meters. In 3049, more than a thousand year ahead the MG has 90 meters of effective range.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 18 March 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Were talking about the drop off after normal max range, which has never beeen included before. It is effectively a flat trajectory up to max range (hypothesised from footage seen and comments made)

Well, it's means the ballistic weapons have increased range, effetively...

[LordDeathStrike]

Cifu, on 19 March 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

A hundred year ago the Maxim machine gun has the effective range around 2000 meters. In 3049, more than a thousand year ahead the MG has 90 meters of effective range.



Well, it's means the ballistic weapons have increased range, effetively...

a mech machine gun is a heavy rotary cannon compared to a maxim pea shooter. and effective range = will dmg and kill your target. mech armor is alot tougher then a man in wool clothing.

most ballistic weapons dont have any drop in bt because max range is 1k, and then go 1k+ m/s, there no time to drop before they are killed off.

at least in mwo they keep going and if they hit something it takes some dmg, but you wont be able to see that far, 7x zoom via module or no zoom at all heh.

[Cifu]

LordDeathStrike, on 19 March 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

a mech machine gun is a heavy rotary cannon compared to a maxim pea shooter. and effective range = will dmg and kill your target. mech armor is alot tougher then a man in wool clothing.

Actually in the BT, the MG has 3 hexes range (90m) regardles what target you have. Light infantry or an assault mech, it's won't matter.

[cinco]

definitely. new strat: study planet that you're fighting on and learn its gravitational strength. may the most literate pilot wn.