84 replies to this topic

[Rogue Jedi]

a real skill tree, have perhaps 5 10 different trees depending on which Mech, and have branches, with a choice ^{(as in cannot take all)} at each level,
so, e.g.
you have choices including movement speed, twist speed, twist range, heat reduction, heat cap, heat dissipation, turn speed, rate of fire, target info, and many others, only some of which are available for each mech depending on what PGI decides is the role of that variant

you choose which 8 skills ^{(out of perhaps 12-16 options)} to take at basic then at elite you can take 4 which you have already unlocked, then at master you can take 1-2 of them to a third level,

when you hit master you can start unlocking other skills but can only use 8 basic, 4 elite and 1 or 2 master skills, and the elite and master must have the lower level skills active

[Dassh]

GRiPSViGiL, on 11 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

While I agree in nature with this there needs to be a hook or a reason to play other than pure competition. The quirk system and meta already allow for an unfair advantage to some degree. Why not allow us to build paper to the current flavor of the month's rock?

I agree with removing quirks aswell. Just balance the weapons (even if it is against lore since implementing assymetric teams or extra rules of engagements would be just more complicated) and equipment in a stock level and leteverybody build their favourite Mechs what suits their playstyle the most. Just dump skills, quirks etc.

About "a reason to play":
In this subject I'm very much on the oldschool side. You have to play a game becaue of the superior gameplay and because you enjoy every second in-game. So, a reason to play? Having fun. All night long :-)
The strategy what MMO games brought to gaming, that you have to keep on doing something what is boring and no fun at all ("grind") thinking about how fun it will be in 163432456 xp collected - when you will get something new to make you grind more in a different level is not just a cheap solution to hide inferior game design but straight unfair. Just look up the psychological term "Operant Conditioning", if you ever played MMOs you won't be happy.

To talk about the F2P model:
I know how fun it was in MW4 (especially MekTek) to jut choose any Mech or weapon and play but back then we bought the full game before. So in a F2P game it has to be something to pay for. But what if they keep the MC only hero Mechs and MC only visual fancy (with giving awy some free MC in events like in the recent events) and you still have to buy MechBays and have to buy new Mechs with C-Bills. So, if you feel like grinding, just go ahead and get a few more Mechs. Btw sooner or later everybody wants a new Mech or two anyways...

[Foxfire kadrpg]

Basic Skills

1,000 XP = +5% Acceleration/Deceleration
1,000 XP = +5% turn speed
1,000 XP = +5% Cooling efficiency
1,000 XP = 20% faster shutdown/power up speed
1,000 XP = +5% Torso twist and pitch range
1,000 XP = +5% Torso and Arm movement speed

Elite Skills (Available when at least three variants of one mech complete Basic)

5,000 XP = +5% Top Speed
5,000 XP = +5% Firing Rate
5,000 XP = +5% target info gathering
5,000 XP = +10% sensor range

Master Skills : (Available when at least three variants of one mech complete Elite)
20,000 XP = extra module slot
20,000 XP = additional +5% to mech Torso/arm range (pitch AND yaw)
20,000 XP = additional +5% to mech acceleration, turning, torso twist speed and arm speed.

Grand Master Skill : (Avaiable when at least three mechs in a weight group complete Master skills)
50,000 = +5% to Targeting Range and Target info gathering.

Grand master skill might seem a bit underwhelming, and is meant more of a complement to the dedicated rather than something drastic that MUST be grinded for.

[pwnface]

MoonUnitBeta, on 11 December 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Why strip the only means of progression from new players (remember, I did say to scrap the current skill tree)? CW is no place for new players, but they need some sort of progression in standard queue.

Why do we need progression in standard queues beyond grinding out c-bills to buy new mechs, equipment, modules? I don't think standard queues need to have any kind of XP based progression. Leveling up to make your mech more effective is really dumb to me, level up your actual gaming skills to be better at the game instead.

[Dassh]

Well, I see what's up so ok. Anyways, one more thought about "roles":

If you want to be - for example - a scout, don't demand a skill tree what you can grind out to buy skills what will make you the best scout on the map even if you are AFK. Just jump into that light and do it. Practice. And practice. Meanwhile watch replays how it supposed to do, like what pwnface posted yesterday - I hope he won't mind I repost it to show what I mean.
My 2 cents.


(edit: oh I see you are here pwnface. I hope you don't mind. And I will reply sometime tomorrow in the other topic...)

Edited by Dassh, 11 December 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Pjwned]

I suppose after PGI actually bothered changing the skill tree at all it's possible they'll change it more, but I have low expectations.

[pwnface]

Roles already exist in MWO.

People just want to be rewarded more for scouting and "suppression" via LRMS when in reality they shouldn't be.

Scouting is essential in matches but once the action starts spotting and scouting is much less relevant than dealing damage.

You don't need a skill tree to specialize your role, you just need to take an appropriate mech and go do it.

[Malagant]

First, I would get rid of this lame idea of having to level up 3 mechs of the same chassis to advance. Instead, Make it a weight class xp unlock chain where you have to spend xp on 3 mechs of the same weight class to advance the chain from Novice --> Basic --> Elite --> Master. Obviously, they miight have to adjust xp requirements for this to be on par with 2.5 to 3 mechs worth of xp for each unlock.

Second, take off all quirks for each and every mech. Instead, have a limited number of quirk slots for each individual mech. You can gain upto 2 additional quirk slots at the price of accepting 2 negative quirks per slot. There will be 4 trees of upgrades possible. Offensive, Defensive, Mobility, and Electronic Warfare. You can only take quirks from 2 trees. Quirks will cost xp and c-bills.

To make this work, the quirks should be tiered and get progressively more expensive, but not prohibitively so.

This system would also replace the module system. Refund all players what was spent on xp, c-bills for mods and the xp spent on mechs, all to be respent on the new system.

Just a rough idea I've been contemplating for some time now.

[Impyrium]

Shameless advertising!

[Malagant]

Dingo Red, on 11 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Shameless advertising!

Looking good, in every way an improvement over what we have. See above to see my thoughts on it though.

[MoonUnitBeta]

pwnface, on 11 December 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Why do we need progression in standard queues beyond grinding out c-bills to buy new mechs, equipment, modules? I don't think standard queues need to have any kind of XP based progression. Leveling up to make your mech more effective is really dumb to me, level up your actual gaming skills to be better at the game instead.

So... why have skill tree's/specialties whatever you want to call them at all?

Like I have already explained, progression outside of personal improvement is one way to keep players interested and working towards a specific goal.

I don't see anything in the game that actually has anything meaningful aside from C-bill accumulation.
But if the main focus is personal improvement, why do we even have c-bills?

It's a game.
That's why we need progression/skills/levels w/e to create a sense of accomplishment and improvement beyond your own capabilities.
If I'm playing a game just to get better and not for fun, I might as well learn knitting, or building something. It's why RPG's have loot. It's why monsters get stronger as you progress.

But nevermind that, the specialties come with pro's and con's. You aren't leveling, you're actually choosing a specific role to fit your mech into. They're supposed to be advanced quirks that shift your mech to perform a certain way, from a decent all around mech to a specialized platform with critical weaknesses. Remember, there's negative quirks too... It's a progressive overbuff/overnerf system that improves as you improve, and gives you the ability to play a variety of styles in the way the mech was meant to be played.

If anything, if you dislike "leveling" so much, you would be 100% on board to scrap the current system (because all it is is just magic numbers making your mech perform better with no downside?) in favor for one that DOES have downsides, and one that actually helps you play the way you want to play without power creep.

Specialties, at their core, achieve this. And the ranking system implemented with Specialties is simply to engage the player and incentivize playing the game.

What's really dumb to me, is a stagnant game that gets old because there's nothing available to support you or push you to be better. Some people aren't as self-motivated as others. And Specialties brings no downsides for either side.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 11 December 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, there's no need for skill trees for role warfare at all.

Of course there is. Forcing players to pick different skill trees segregates skills so one person cant do everything. That forces you to rely on your teammates more to do things you cant do. Thats a good thing.

Quote

There are already roles in MWO. Like there are scouts, brawler, mid-range "traders", skirmishers, ECM carriers,.. ain't it?

And those are pretty much all the same role: combat (except scouting which isnt currently a real role). Obviously that system doesnt work since heavy mechs are the best weight class for combat and the same heavy mechs dominate the top tier lists over and over. In your proposed system nothing changes and heavies continue to dominate.

What we need is stronger role warfare system and gamemodes that places emphasis on something other than combat ability. Scouting for example should actually be a full-time role thats crucial to your team winning. Mechs should be looked at for more than just how good they are at combat. The Raven for example should be the unrivaled best scout mech in the game; people should play Ravens in order to scout, not shun the Raven because its worse at combat than the Firestarter. Thats actual role warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2015 - 05:11 PM.

[Zolaz]

I predict a nerf thrown on top of the original skill tree nerf.

[Johny Rocket]

Id be happy if they just undid what they did last patch. My Griff 2N feels like an old clunker dump truck now.

[Mystere]

Kraftwerkedup, on 11 December 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Well "mech skills" represent basically your techs doing field modifications,

This I can go for, but ...

Kraftwerkedup, on 11 December 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

along with representing becoming more familiar with it.

If youre a noob in an ME-109, you wont be able to get the same performance out of it as an expert. An expert knows how to trim his control surfaces, what altitude is the best for the aircraft, and get a higher top speed for instance.

I am not too fond of this. I want the actual player to directly get familiar with the handling of whatever he is piloting. Why would I want something artificial to do it for me?

[Alex Morgaine]

Just remember to make it so cookie cutter optimized builds cannot be made, or you might as well throw out the whole system right then and there.

[Dassh]

Mystere, on 11 December 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Why would I want something artificial to do it for me?

Because some people got so much socialised on MMO grindfests that they forgot there are and there were other games out there (way more fun games actually). They can't imagine "progression" without watching XP counting on the screen and can't imagine differences in skills and specialities in actual player skills just in artifical numbers.
They just looking for the worst illusion in contemporary gaming. Since gaining XP and leveling up isn't a progress at all since you aren't reach anything and as your damage grows the enemies HP grow aswell so everything is the very same just the numbers changed. And there is no challenge at all, with time invested you will be top level anyways, so I think even a timer will do that how long are you playing and that's all. On the other hand, having arifical "skills" doesn't mean anything. They aren't skills actually just different icons on the screen what you spam with the same dumb monotony, the very same way at level 80 as level 1.
These features only support people who are neither able to improve any real skills nor can enjoy a game where they aren't the top badasses.
The other thing - and oneof the main reason this was implemented in those MMO games - that this level the playing field between players. It is impossible to be better or worse then others except by the way of pure grinding and leveling. Unfair, bland and boring.
I tried to make my point above but I give up. Ther eis problem on the basic level of understanding between us since if I say "no skill tree" they hear "no real skills, variability, roles, specialists" (well, what about player skills? other then key-smashing...), if I say "no XP/levels" they hear "no fun, no progression, no reason to play at all" (and what about having fun? what games are built for actually...).

I think kind of these are the reason why people just can't live without these features. But there are numerous MMOs out there to fulfill this desire, MWO shouldn't turn into another one. (At least PGI would lose me for sure with it...)

Edited by Dassh, 11 December 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[Pjwned]

pwnface, on 11 December 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Roles already exist in MWO.

People just want to be rewarded more for scouting and "suppression" via LRMS when in reality they shouldn't be.

Scouting is essential in matches but once the action starts spotting and scouting is much less relevant than dealing damage.

You don't need a skill tree to specialize your role, you just need to take an appropriate mech and go do it.

That may be, but that doesn't make the current piece of crap for a skill tree good, so...

[LordNothing]

i have a lot of mastered mechs right now. so under the new system i should be allowed to go all the way to the end of the tree without having to re-buy all the horrible varients i sold.

[Alistair Winter]

Basically, they should have a close look at their original ideas and then tweak them to what they've already got on their website.

https://mwomercs.com...-3-role-warfare
http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont



4 roles:

• Scout: Improved infotech. Improved speed & jump jets. Harder to detect. Capping faster. Improved zoom. More paperdoll info. Enhanced imaging (heat vision and night vision capable of seeing further)
  
• Brawler: Improved torso twist, turn rate & arm movement. Increased HP to equipment Improved AMS. Increased acceleration & deceleration, increased hill climb ability. Accelerated overheat power-up sequence. Mostly skills that improve survivability and agility.
  
• Support: Improved zoom. Improved crit chance. Improved rate of fire. Improved crit chance when hitting tagged and NARC'ed targets. Increased max range. Improved heat capacity. Mostly skill that improve firepower.
  
• Command: Airstrikes & artillery reload every 3 minutes, doing more damage. Instead of 10 x 15 dmg, increase to 15 x 20 damage over a bigger area. Can equip both artillery & airstrike. Different infotech bonuses to friendly mechs within 270 meters, providing faster targeting, longer sensor range, faster target locks, etc. (Multiple command mechs do not stack bonuses)

(Balancing the exact numbers is up for debate. Maybe Command is too OP here, but you get the idea)

Most importantly, each skill tree should have some sort of synergy.

For example:

• Scout mech master skill is to transfer all infotech bonuses to friendly command mechs.
  
• Command mech master skill is to transfer infotech bonuses from friendly scout mechs to friendly support & brawler mechs.

In this situation, scouts and command mechs become force multipliers.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 12 December 2015 - 02:45 AM.